As the only core feature of Wendy, why Abi should be the most weaker special follower of the whole DST?

[Dingle]

Just now, Xplan said:

if you dont use vex, your dmg is much lower than any other characters.

what funny is: if you give up vex and decide to tank. you can kill bosses faster than those who use vex.

This all sounds really wrong.

Why not just tank and use vex elixir at the same time?

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

Or is the spellcasting also cumbersome.

it was a bit... "Anti-QoL"

you know we have some discussion about QoL / Controller improvement during this patch, the most concerned was based on Team spirit (and Wortox teleport when using Controller)

[Xplan]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

The cure all elixirs, right? Those seem pretty easy to keep on in practice. Every 30 seconds you right click on one real quick while dodging an attack.

The change to able able to right click them helped a lot, I think.

problems show up

at many scenarios, you have to maintain vigor mortis to kite bosses with abi.

since you use spectral cure all, there will be more trouble coming in......

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

it was a bit... "Anti-QoL"

you know we have some discussion about QoL / Controller improvement during this patch, the most concerned was based on Team spirit (and Wortox teleport when using Controller)

Oh, you play on controller?

Thanks for all this, it clarifies where you're coming from.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

Treeguards in particular are like. If wendy had the exact same skill as woodie for sake of argument, where would she use it? CC is prohibitively expensive. Dfly and klaus cant be hit. AG is trivial. Cant use it on frostjaw and nightmare werepig is about breaking pillars. Bearger and to some extent clops already make their own treeguards. So it’s bee queen and fuelweaver (which wendy already is fine with) and scrappy werepig+toadstool? The latter of which has three spawn points?

 

And you have to grow the evergreens, and they dont heal…

tbh Wendy now have Bigspooks which have more similar preparing step as Treeguards. But they even seems far weaker than Beardlords.

Just now, Dingle said:

Oh, you play on controller?

Thanks for all this, it clarifies where you're coming from.

No. I was bought DST on my switch. After struggling with the controller in 30 mins, I gave up.

15 minutes ago, Dingle said:

This all sounds really wrong.

Why not just tank and use vex elixir at the same time?

I guess there another method for balance's sake, to make Cure-All as super potion, then it would can't work with cursed vex in parallel, problem solved.

[Dingle]

16 minutes ago, Steorra said:

tbh Wendy now have Bigspooks which have more similar preparing step as Treeguards. But they even seems far weaker than Beardlords.

They are extremely easy to set up, but the power is capped. I made a thread about them.

They're really nice for an early, low resource used bee queen rush, if nothing else. Its kind of like giving abby an extra second nightshade nostrum, while making her more tanky (due to them taking hits for her)

They also seem to keep resurrecting if they get killed.

By extremely easy to set up: all you have to do is dig 4 graves and pick 12 flowers.

[Cdijk16]

The special followers of other characters which you have mentioned in the OP like Woodie's Treeguards or Wurt's merms require a lot of resources to obtain and recruit. And in order to get Webber's optimal spider army you have to journey into caves for Spitters and fight spider queens for Nurses, and it's still possible to lose them all if you play poorly. I think it's reasonable for Abigail to not be as strong or durable as these since you have to spend no resources at all to get and maintain Abigail. Willow's BERNIE is not as expensive, but compared to Abigail it doesnt have an AOE, attacks way slower, is less controllable, and doesn't boost Wendy's damage. You can't really dodge attacks with BERNIE using commands so in practice it is less survivable than Abigail in the hands of a skilled player.

Also why does Abigail need to be bulkier than other exclusive followers? Abigail being relatively frail makes you have to strategise and think outside the box when fighting bosses as Wendy. I think that the durability of followers of other characters actually makes them boring to play since all you have to do is sicc your followers on the boss and watch. With Wendy you instead have to interact with your follower too keep her alive and I find that very fun. I don't want her to be made like other follower characters bc that would make her boring to play as.

 

[Xplan]

Just now, Cdijk16 said:

Also why does Abigail need to be bulkier than other exclusive followers? Abigail being relatively frail makes you have to strategise and think outside the box when fighting bosses as Wendy. I think that the durability of followers of other characters actually makes them boring to play since all you have to do is sicc your followers on the boss and watch. With Wendy you instead have to interact with your follower too keep her alive and I find that very fun. I don't want her to be made like other follower characters bc that would make her boring to play as.

learning the skills might be "interesting"

but if the skills are meaningless, i wont find it interesting.

meangless: paying more but getting less.

[Cdijk16]

3 minutes ago, Xplan said:

learning the skills might be "interesting"

but if the skills are meaningless, i wont find it interesting.

meangless: paying more but getting less.

Optimally played Wendy does around 2x the damage of a baseline character in addition to having an AOE follower which is extremely useful against bosses with minions like Bee Queen and Ancient Fuelweaver. So you are absolutely getting more reward than a character with a 1x damage multiplier fighting bosses using normal strats for example. 

[Xplan]

Just now, Cdijk16 said:

Optimally played Wendy does around 2x the damage of a baseline character in addition to having an AOE follower which is extremely useful against bosses with minions like Bee Queen and Ancient Fuelweaver. So you are absolutely getting more reward than a character with a 1x damage multiplier fighting bosses using normal strats for example. 

first, where is 2x comes from

[Cdijk16]

27 minutes ago, Xplan said:

first, where is 2x comes from

By optimally played I mean Wendy with a War Saddle Ornery beefalo attacking the same target as Abigail at dusk or night. By baseline character I mean a 1x damage multiplier character using a Ham Bat. You wont always have War Saddle or have it be night, but even with it you deal way more than a normal character with a 1x multiplier.

Wendy with a War Saddle Ornery Beefalo does 66 damage per hit by default. With Abigails's Vex active this becomes 66 * 1.54 = 101.64 (rounded off to 102 for simplicity). Abigail's attack does 10-40 damage every second (or roughly every other attack by Wendy).

Baseline character with Ham Bat damage: 59.5 per attack

Approx math for damage at night for each hit by Wendy + Abigail: (66 * 1.54) + (40/2) =122 per attack (this math might not be exactly correct, but it gives general idea)

With cursed vexation you do even more damage compared to baseline.

[Dingle]

5 minutes ago, Cdijk16 said:

By optimally played I mean Wendy with a War Saddle Ornery beefalo attacking the same target as Abigail at dusk or night. By baseline character I mean a 1x damage multiplier character using a Ham Bat. You wont always have War Saddle or have it be night, but even with it you deal way more than a normal character with a 1x multiplier.

Wendy with a War Saddle Ornery Beefalo does 66 damage per hit by default. With Abigails's Vex active this becomes 66 * 1.54 = 101.64 (rounded off to 102 for simplicity). Abigail's attack does 10-40 damage every second (or roughly every other attack by Wendy).

Baseline character with Ham Bat damage: 59.5 per attack

Approx math for damage at night for each hit by Wendy + Abigail: (66 * 1.54) + (40/2) =122 per attack (this math might not be exactly correct, but it gives general idea)

With cursed vexation you do even more damage compared to baseline.

Liked you touched on, this is out of date. Cursed vexation + shadow abby murder buff gets this even higher now.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

Because it is just a trap of "why don't you play Willow" from the very beginning. Which is aiming to avoid the question of "Why Wendy should be weaker than all other similar characters who have their special followers"

Except she isn't she has her own unique advantages the thing that then comes up is why can't those other characters you want Wendy to copy get the advantages Wendy has? 

[Cdijk16]

2 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Warly can deal 2.5 times the damage on rainy days, but most people do not think Warly surpasses Wolf. The more restrictions there are, the harder it becomes to achieve this theoretical maximum value in actual combat.

Ok but with Wendy the only restriction is to keep Abigail alive, which can be consistently achieved regardless of season or RNG in most situations with some skill and practice. This is a lot easier to do with new skill tree.

[Dingle]

8 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

Warly can deal 2.5 times the damage on rainy days, but most people do not think Warly surpasses Wolf. The more restrictions there are, the harder it becomes to achieve this theoretical maximum value in actual combat.

Some people bring up this argument though. Like "warly is stronger than wendy due to voltgoat jelly". I've seen it used recently.

I can't remember if it was you that said it.

[Cdijk16]

11 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Liked you touched on, this is out of date. Cursed vexation + shadow abby murder buff gets this even higher now.

I am aware of that, but I didn't remember the math of the top of my head, so I didnt specify the exact value.

[Dingle]

Just now, Cdijk16 said:

I am aware of that, but I didn't remember the math of the top of my head, so I didnt specify the exact value.

I figured that you knew, just wanted to add.

Off top of head, she goes from 1.54 to 2.04 or something like that. And abby damage simply doubles, from 20 dps to 40.

[CremeLover]

Since we're discussing numbers in this thread, I would like to refer to this other post, where they run the math for the damage comparison between different characters, since I though it would be appropiate.

19 hours ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Wolfgang is (supposedly) the character with highest dps in the game. It's his whole gimmick. If we start comparing each character's dps we'd get nowhere, they can vary quite a lot. Lucky for you though, I like math. Let's calculate Wendy's dps and compare it to Wes (weakest), Wilson (average) and Wolfgang (strongest). And let's compare it to beefalo damage as well.

Let's also not use a specific weapon, and calculate it as a function y = f(x), y being the dps and x being the weapon damage. But! Planar damage will be excluded since it is not affected by multipliers. Which means late game dps somewhat converges among all characters. The calculation is pretty simple: character modifier * 2 (attacks twice per second) * x (weapon damage). Wendy's dps is slightly trickier to calculate because there are 2 extra modifiers: Abi's vex general effect (1.1) and Abi's vex for Wendy exclusively (1.4). They stack, turning Wendy's 0.75 multiplier into 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.1 = 1.155. I'm also going to consider Abi's night damage with and without the vex elixir and the murder modifier. The vex elixir, if I recall correctly, increases the 1.1 vex modifier to 1.2. And murder doubles Abi's damage.

Wes: 0.75 * 2 * x = 1.5x
Wilson: 1 * 2 * x = 2x
Wolfgang: 2 * 2 * x = 4x
Wendy: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.1 * 2 * x + 40 = 2.31x + 40
Wendy w/ vex & murder: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.2 * 2 * x + 80 = 2.52x + 80

As you can see in the graphic above, the intersection point between Wolfgang's dps and Wendy's dps with all possible bonuses is around (54, 216), which means Wolfgang only surpasses Wendy's dps when he's using a weapon with 54 damage or more. A ham bat. At that point they'll have roughly the same dps. Sure, Wendy's bonuses don't last forever, but you probably want them to last for the whole fight if you're facing a challenging boss. But remember what I said about planar damage? It isn't affected by any modifiers at all. Which means Wendy always surpasses Wolfgang when using weapons that deal planar damage, since the highest physical damage inflicted by a planar weapon is 41.8 (shadow reaper with all bonuses applied), still way below 54. And even when Abi is doing just regular night damage without any bonuses, she's still pretty strong. Not as strong as Wolfgang, but pretty strong. If you're curious, the intersection between Wolfgang dps and non buffed Wendy dps is around (24, 95). Finally, I said I would calculate beefalo damage too.

Wendy's dps with a beefalo and base Abi, assuming the beefalo is ornery with a nightmare saddle (because there's no reason to go lower): 34 * 2 * 1.4 * 1.1 + 40 + 18 * 2 (18 planar damage) = 180.72. Still lower than Wendy with a dark sword (197.08). For the record, war saddle ornery dps with Abigail (no buffs) is 271. Wolfgang's dps with a dark sword is 272. So Wendy with a beefalo easily surpasses Wolfgang with buffs (murder and vex elixir). Nightmare saddle dps with all the buffs is 230.24. I'm not considering planar entity protection, of course, cause that is overly complicated and it's obvious that the damage will only get higher with a planar weapon (or saddle in this case). The nightmare saddle still has lower damage than the shadow reaper either way, which is close to dark sword damage but some of its damage is planar. That's why I hate fighting with beefalo. When I tame a beefalo, I do it for the speed it provides, not the damage. Sure, you're as strong as Wolfgang (pre rift) if you tame an ornery beefalo and get a war saddle, but I find the whole process tedious and I hate ornery because you gotta keep feeding them. Anyway, I hope this helps. I'm not even trying to prove a point here, just providing some useful data.

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

No, I haven't seen that myself, but I have come across opinions comparing Abi with BERNIE! Given that they are both unique summons, the comparison is reasonable. BERNIE! should be tankier than Abi, but Abi is a bit too fragile.

Closer than treeguards or spiders, anyway.

[Peasant]

Special followers…So it's comparing with merms, spiders, shadow duelists, and bernie? Then I reckon, Abi is the weakest among them

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Cdijk16 said:

You can't really dodge attacks with BERNIE using commands so in practice it is less survivable than Abigail in the hands of a skilled player.

there's a huge difference between BERNIE! and Abi which of convenience, is that you could just carry 2 BERNIE! and when the 1st died you just throw the 2nd down, you need no more manage then BERNIE! join back your battle. Abi can't do same thing which because of she needs more management and healing, elixirs, etc, especially Wendy would be weak and fragile once she lose Abi, but Willow have her own spell, BERNIE! does perfectly as a tanky supporting role for her.

1 hour ago, Cdijk16 said:

but compared to Abigail it doesnt have an AOE

tbh the thorn effect of BERNIE! could does similar thing to an AoE result.

 

1 hour ago, Cdijk16 said:

Also why does Abigail need to be bulkier than other exclusive followers?

This is due to the balance concerns. I could understand your worries about her gameplay would be change into a boring way. I believe that we could find a compromise to everyone and give everyone option to make them enjoy their own gameplay.

40 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Except she isn't she has her own unique advantages the thing that then comes up is why can't those other characters you want Wendy to copy get the advantages Wendy has? 

This thread is focusing on "why other character could ensure their unique feature won't lost easily, but Wendy cannot.", that's why I said that this thread is focusing on Abi's survival but not Wendy & Abi's DPS.

To lost the only core feature of a character is unacceptable for most players. If they want challenge they would go Wes but not Wendy.

[hyoton123]

There are extremely good reasons (well, one reason) why no one seriously uses bernie’s damage reflect.

 

[Steorra]

27 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Since we're discussing numbers in this thread, I would like to refer to this other post, where they run the math for the damage comparison between different characters, since I though it would be appropiate.

I know Wendy has extremely advantage of DPS, but as a price she has manage a follower. This is extremely hard for those who used to play a normal single character. 

And as Wendy have to manage Abi, she should comparing with other characters who have to manage their follower or if they don't they lose almost all feature - and for this perspective, Webber Wurt and Maxwell would be the most reasonable character for the balance comparing. Though this is just my personal opinion.

30 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Closer than treeguards or spiders, anyway.

If we move our logic into "If lost the follower, then lost almost all feature of the characters", then Abi is more closer to Spider army of Webber.

Wurt is too strong who even lose her army would be still far stronger than normal characters in battle (the wetness shield...)  but I personally think that is not her original design intention, so I bring her merms here.

5 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

There are extremely good reasons (well, one reason) why no one seriously uses bernie’s damage reflect.

 

I know, but it could be a special build, for who have interest of it. And that build does work well.

Especially for those who are too tired to cast fire spells.

[hyoton123]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

 

I know, but it could be a special build, for who have interest of it. And that build does work well.

Especially for those who are too tired to cast fire spells.

There has been precisely one person i have ever seen say that they use this skill, and it was indeed because they didnt want to use an affinity spell. 

 

It is a really bad skill and short duration to boot. It won’t help if things arent directly hitting bernie. No stunlock and bernie stil loses health. It’s not a substitute for true AOE at all. Willow AOE is just not equivalent to how wendy approaches AOE.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, hyoton123 said:

There has been precisely one person i have ever seen say that they use this skill, and it was indeed because they didnt want to use an affinity spell. 

Have to say there are someone who extremely love the BERNIE! but hate those affinity fire spells... And the BERNIE! build is just for their gameplay. That's an option. Similarly with these arguments? There's a problem that is Wendy do need an option for casual gameplay in endgame.