Yes, Abi SHOULD be "immortal" and this enhanced Wendy's identity. (Survey for attitudes of Abi's survival)

[Echsrick]

37 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Honestly, my take on this whole player tag debate really is just:

If it's to stay, give it to Bernie as well! It's only fair. Unless the Wendy mains would like to argue that it'd be "too strong" or "OP"?

Or, only let Lunar Abby have the player tag, since she's the one that's meant to be used against bosses.

i think that would make sense

(sarcasm) ((give every player follower temporary player tags if we at it))

[Reiko24]

5 hours ago, Xplan said:

it's not a bug.

walter's attack speed is too fast that AFW can't pull out Ancient Key. walter can just defeat it outside simply pressing F.

maybe you should urge Klei to nerf walter's Slingshot. you dont want a broken character. dont you ?

It’s a bug

afw only tries to pull out the Ancient Key if you are outside the arena or dead

Walter attacking AFW outside the arena is cheese, and was ALWAYS possible

this is the unintended, cheesy method that the developers did not expect when designing, making it a bug

[Xplan]

51 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

It’s a bug

afw only tries to pull out the Ancient Key if you are outside the arena or dead

Walter attacking AFW outside the arena is cheese, and was ALWAYS possible

this is the unintended, cheesy method that the developers did not expect when designing, making it a bug

 i guess devs have to nerf him to prevent him from beeing broken.

[thesooz9000]

1 minute ago, Xplan said:

 i guess devs have to nerf him to prevent him from beeing broken.

It's a bug, patching a bug does not mean nerfing a character, Wendy used to be able to cheese BQ by fighting her on a boat, that got patched, Wendy wasn't nerfed by the patching of that cheese.

[Reiko24]

28 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

It's a bug, patching a bug does not mean nerfing a character, Wendy used to be able to cheese BQ by fighting her on a boat, that got patched, Wendy wasn't nerfed by the patching of that cheese.

This. How is it so hard to understand?

[Bumber64]

On 12/14/2024 at 9:55 PM, Steorra said:

1. Abi is the only core feature of Wendy unlike BERNIE! to Willow, Treeguards to Woodie. Which means if Abi dead or disabled then Wendy just lost all her main feature and become a Wes-plus character. This was a regular scenarios before but this is unhealthy for Wendy's identity. To lose one's all core feature is unacceptable for DST gameplay.

This logic isn't solid. Abi may be the core feature, but her dying isn't the removal of the feature. It's the penalty phase of the feature for misusing her. Unsummoning gives you control over the penalty so that you can resummon Abi immediately at no cost (when a boss is stunned, for example). What's unacceptable for DST gameplay is pretending a powerful character's downside makes them less of a character.

It's like claiming Wickerbottom shouldn't lose sanity from reading books because it hinders her ability to read books, WX shouldn't short-circuit in rain because it disables his circuits, or Wanda shouldn't need to be old to max alarming clock damage because she fears aging. The truth is that DST characters are defined by their downsides.

The Woodie and Webber comparisons aren't good. Anybody else (including Wendy) can hire an army of bunnymen if they want, and I haven't heard you address that fact. It's not a character balance issue if anyone can do it.

(Since rooks versus Abi was mentioned in another thread, I'd also like to point out that the charge attack one-shots most of Webber's spiders. You need the toadstool configuration with you just to fight one rook. If you get charged by two of them at once, you'll probably have your army decimated between heals.)

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The Woodie and Webber comparisons aren't good. Anybody else (including Wendy) can hire an army of bunnymen if they want, and I haven't heard you address that fact. It's not a character balance issue if anyone can do it.

I've told that this logic in unreasonable in other thread. Bunnymen is a feature of DST for every characters, but Abi is not. You can't compare them for balance.

Abi is only achievable and manageable for Wendy, as same as spider to Webber, treeguards for Woodie. Though the management details may have difference here, but they all are special follower to these characters. To bring bunnymen here is ridiculous.

3 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

(Since rooks versus Abi was mentioned in another thread, I'd also like to point out that the charge attack one-shots most of Webber's spiders. You need the toadstool configuration with you just to fight one rook. If you get charged by two of them at once, you'll probably have your army decimated between heals.)

I guess I need give no details about this part for convincing but only a simple question is needed - OFC spiders could be instant killed by rook, but do you know that even with this feature Webber could still easily swarm the whole ruins? This feature which of spiders instant dead, is even hardly to say "it's a weakness of Webber" in the scenarios of where the rooks appear.

3 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

It's like claiming Wickerbottom shouldn't lose sanity from reading books because it hinders her ability to read books, WX shouldn't short-circuit in rain because it disables his circuits, or Wanda shouldn't need to be old to max alarming clock damage because she fears aging. The truth is that DST characters are defined by their downsides.

And this, I have say no.

It's more like Wickerbottom become unable to read her book if your sanity once lower than 50%, and you keep this punishment until your sanity refilled.

It's more like WX78 would lose all his circuits effect when you being wet, and keep this punishment until you become completely dry.

It's more like Wanda's clock ability become all disabled (beside the ageless watch) by Alzheimer once Wanda become old.

 

You should know the difference between "losing all core feature of the character" and "some core feature got bad influence". They are not same. All examples you gave are completely different with Abi's death.

[Chewabacca]

18 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I've told that this logic in unreasonable in other thread. Bunnymen is a feature of DST for every characters, but Abi is not. You can't compare them for balance.

Abi is only achievable and manageable for Wendy, as same as spider to Webber, treeguards for Woodie. Though the management details may have difference here, but they all are special follower to these characters. To bring bunnymen here is ridiculous.

I guess I need give no details about this part for convincing but only a simple question is needed - OFC spiders could be instant killed by rook, but do you know that even with this feature Webber could still easily swarm the whole ruins? This feature which of spiders instant dead, is even hardly to say "it's a weakness of Webber" in the scenarios of where the rooks appear.

And this, I have say no.

It's more like Wickerbottom become unable to read her book if your sanity once lower than 50%, and you keep this punishment until your sanity refilled.

It's more like WX78 would lose all his circuits effect when you being wet, and keep this punishment until you become completely dry.

It's more like Wanda's clock ability become all disabled (beside the ageless watch) by Alzheimer once Wanda become old.

 

You should know the difference between "losing all core feature of the character" and "some core feature got bad influence". They are not same. All examples you gave are completely different with Abi's death.

Why are you talking like you can't summon Abigail until her health bar fills back up? You can summon her just fine like five seconds after she dies.

[Steorra]

And for the current stage, you may say that Wendy has her Ghastly elixir for fast recovering.

Yeah, just imagine that you playing Wanda now, you managed her in middle age for more damage output in boss fighting. You missed attention once time. Wanda get hitted. She step into old-age. Alzheimer happened. Well now your backstep watch and alarming clock all become disabled. You could easily flee and use your ageless watch to recover from this punishment before you restart your battle. Do you like this feeling?

10 minutes ago, Chewabacca said:

Why are you talking like you can't summon Abigail until her health bar fills back up? You can summon her just fine like five seconds after she dies.

See above.

[Bumber64]

38 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I've told that this logic in unreasonable in other thread. Bunnymen is a feature of DST for every characters, but Abi is not. You can't compare them for balance.

Abi is only achieve and manageable for Wendy, as same as spider to Webber, treeguards for Woodie. Though the management details may have difference here, but they all are special follower to these characters. To bring bunnymen here is ridiculous.

Why can't we compare them? Your assertion that only special followers can be compared is entirely arbitrary.

Wendy gets bunnymen and access to Abi's AoE whenever she wants. Bunnymen and pigs flat-out attack Webber, so spiders are his only option. Woodie's treeguards are like Winona's old non-portable catapults, except they're actually hostile mobs until calmed. (These are not followers and will not follow him to the next target in any reasonable manner.) Wendy just pulls Abi out of her pocket whenever, even if Abi just died, and can grab a bunch of free bunnymen from a village just like any non-Webber.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Why can't we compare them? Your assertion that only special followers can be compared is entirely arbitrary.

I've already gave the explanation of my logic. You should try to prove your logic of why bunnymen could come here before we have further discussion.

 

7 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Wendy gets bunnymen and access to Abi's AoE whenever she wants. Bunnymen and pigs flat-out attack Webber, so spiders are his only option. Woodie's treeguards are like Winona's old non-portable catapults, except they're actually hostile mobs until calmed. Wendy just pulls Abi out of her pocket whenever, even if Abi just died, and can grab a bunch of free bunnymen from a village just like any non-Webber.

And this is funny. I've seen someone just say "what benefits you got from being friendly to neutral mobs?" for defending Wortox nice side effect, which completely removed his main downside.

But now here a people say "neutral mobs does matter".

I guess you guys should argue first (smile

[Bumber64]

56 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I've already gave the explanation of my logic. You should try to prove your logic of why bunnymen could come here before we have further discussion.

 

And this is funny. I've seen someone just say "what benefits you got from being friendly to neutral mobs?" for defending Wortox nice side effect, which completely removed his main downside.

But now here a people say "neutral mobs does matter".

You've essentially just stated that only character-specific followers matter for character balance. You haven't supported this assertion, nor disproven that bunnymen are an equalizing force between characters.

And it is always conveniently forgotten that Wortox already has a downside relating to food, tying into his need for souls. The thing is that most players don't actually want or need to recruit an army of followers to evaporate bosses, else they'd be playing Webber or Wurt. Instead most players just engage the boss themselves using kiting or facetanking. The only other players that care about an OP army of followers are Wendy mains on forums trying to humble their own character in a transparent attempt to get even more buffs.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

And this, I have say no.

It's more like Wickerbottom become unable to read her book if your sanity once lower than 50%, and you keep this punishment until your sanity refilled.

It's more like WX78 would lose all his circuits effect when you being wet, and keep this punishment until you become completely dry.

It's more like Wanda's clock ability become all disabled (beside the ageless watch) by Alzheimer once Wanda become old.

 

You should know the difference between "losing all core feature of the character" and "some core feature got bad influence". They are not same. All examples you gave are completely different with Abi's death.

Abi doesn't die at 50% health, so you pulled this number out of nowhere. At 0% sanity reading a book will instantly spawn shadow creatures, interrupting reading.

That's pretty much exactly how it works. He loses a charge every 5 seconds while above 15 wetness, and only recovers one every 90 seconds when dry.

This makes no sense. Why wouldn't you just choose to stay permanently young if you don't get a benefit as a glass cannon? Just a free healing character.

Right, Webber loses all his core features if his spiders die. Too bad he can't instantly resummon them and return to full strength in less than 30 seconds, else he'd be a better character.

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

 

 

12 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You've essentially just stated that only character-specific followers matter for character balance. You haven't supported this assertion, nor disproven that bunnymen are an equalizing force between characters.

You are still avoiding to give a logic to explain why bunnymen could be a thing to balance or for comparison. But I already gave my logic about why spider and treeguards should be concerned for Abi's balance.

Keep to questioning me but give no explanation to your point does not help to clarify your opinion.

14 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

The thing is that most players don't actually want or need to recruit an army of followers to evaporate bosses

Your quotes seems to start against yourself. You know bunnymen does no matter to every characters, then why you bring them into this balance topic?

16 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

This makes no sense. Why wouldn't you just choose to stay permanently young if you don't get a benefit as a glass cannon? Just a free healing characte

I have no interest to talk more about WX78 since I'm not similar with him. I have no interest to talk more about Wickerbottom since she is not a fighter character like Wendy and Wanda.

And according to your words may I just confirm that you think Alzheimer for Wanda as a punishment like Abi's death is Okay? Sounds interesting.

18 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Right, Webber loses all his core features if his spiders die. Too bad he can't instantly resummon them and return to full strength in less than 30 seconds, else he'd be a better character.

Webber could easily regroup his army in 1day. Before the Ghastly elixir patched out, Abi need at least half day to relevel to Lv3.

1 day is ofc longer than half. That's why Webber has triple or even more damage than Wendy right?

And no need to say how immortal spider army is. Webber has few chances to need regroup. This is a extremely difference with Abi.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

You are still avoiding to give a logic to explain why bunnymen could be a thing to balance or for comparison. But I already gave my logic about why spider and treeguards should be concerned for Abi's balance.

Okay, let's reverse this: Webber's core feature is recruiting swarms of followers. Since Wendy and everybody else can recruit a swarm of bunnymen, doesn't that actually take away from Webber's core feature and balance? You can claim his nurse spiders make his followers immortal, but there isn't a distinction if you have enough treeguards or bunnymen to melt the boss before it can retaliate (the bee queen and toadstool strategy).

Wendy's gameplay involves keeping Abi alive in order to deal automatic AoE damage and avoid her downside. She shouldn't be compared to swarm characters, because Abi isn't disposable (ignoring ghastly experience). Abi shouldn't be immortal either, because that turns Wendy into Wolfgang, who most would agree is a poorly designed character.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

Your quotes seems to start against yourself. You know bunnymen does no matter to every characters, then why you bring them into this balance topic?

Why do you bring Woodie and Webber into a Wendy balance topic? You act like those two are OP because they can destroy bosses, yet pretend it's irrelevant that Wendy can do the exact same thing! You say it's different because it's not one of her personal features, then you admit that you don't even use her elixirs!

Hey, maybe Woodie and Webber should be buffed because I don't like using idols and nurse spiders! Woodie should be able to equip weapons and armor while in wereforms, since he's just Wilson unless full moon. Wendy has 2.1x beefalo damage plus free AoE, so it's balanced. (A speedrunner even cleared a boss rush with Wendy faster than any other character before her skill tree!) Webber's spiders need double health and player tags, since it's hard to keep them alive without healing. Make them immune to fear, since casual players can't beat toadstool otherwise. No gatekeeping, please.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

And according to your words may I just confirm that you think Alzheimer for Wanda as a punishment like Abi's death is Okay? Sounds interesting.

No, I didn't say anything of the sort. She'd just be Wilson with free healing, which isn't interesting at all. Did you know that an ageless watch is a free blue cap's worth of healing every 2 min? And that some players leave backpacks full of them lying around? The only reason Wanda mains let themselves get old is because it increases her DPS.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

Webber could easily regroup his army in 1day. Before the Ghastly elixir patched out, Abi need at least half day to relevel to Lv3.

1 day is ofc longer than half. That's why Webber has triple or even more damage than Wendy right?

And no need to say how immortal spider army is. Webber has few chances to need regroup. This is a extremely difference with Abi.

Frankly, ghastly elixir shouldn't work in combat, nurse spider healing should be nerfed, Maxwell's shadow prison shouldn't work on bosses, Wolfgang loses mightiness quicker, etc., but the focus for this beta should be not giving characters OP things that may need to be removed later.

[Steorra]

14 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

but there isn't a distinction if you have enough treeguards or bunnymen to melt the boss before it can retaliate (the bee queen and toadstool strategy)

Could you simply go record a video to show us how bunnymen melt toadstool without Wolfgang?

19 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

then you admit that you don't even use her elixirs

I have no idea why a personal choice could be involved in balance discussion. Were you just trying to focus on me personally but not focus on my words logic and evidence?

[Xplan]

11 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Hey, maybe Woodie and Webber should be buffed because I don't like using idols and nurse spiders! Woodie should be able to equip weapons and armor while in wereforms, since he's just Wilson unless full moon. Wendy has 2.1x beefalo damage plus free AoE, so it's balanced. (A speedrunner even cleared a boss rush with Wendy faster than any other character before her skill tree!) Webber's spiders need double health and player tags, since it's hard to keep them alive without healing. Make them immune to fear, since casual players can't beat toadstool otherwise. No gatekeeping, please.

let's give wendy a elixir to defend knockback, if she is related to beefalo.

[Steorra]

20 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

because that turns Wendy into Wolfgang,

Then better to ask nerf Vex effect to prevent Wendy from being Wolfgang. I would support you.

21 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

then you admit that you don't even use her elixirs

I have to admit that I've almost lost all interest to read the left words of yours after I've seen this sentence.

If you are just trying to focus on me personally, no need to talk anymore. You may just go ask mods to help you to kick me out off this forum. That's more simple.

[BudinDePan]

Webber again? I thought wendy mains would go easy in their best friend 

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, BudinDePan said:

Webber again? I thought wendy mains would go easy in their best friend 

Don't worry, I was webber main before I main wendy, I would ask buff for webber when his skill tree incoming.

Though the most buff for him should be the fixing of spider latency... Sad story.

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, Xplan said:

let's give wendy a elixir to defend knockback, if she is related to beefalo.

Marble armor already does that. And vigor mortis plus Wraith's Wreath removes marble armor's downside 

[Xplan]

Just now, Debruh said:

And vigor mortis plus Wraith's Wreath removes marble armor's downside 

there might be a bug. i didn't find it working on marble armor, at least not obvious

1 minute ago, Debruh said:

Marble armor already does that.

i mean the elixir can prevent you from falling off the beefalo which marble armor is not capable of.

[Bumber64]

2 hours ago, Steorra said:

Could you simply go record a video to show us how bunnymen melt toadstool without Wolfgang?

I have no idea why a personal choice could be involved in balance discussion. Were you just trying to focus on me personally but not focus on my words logic and evidence?

100 bunnymen reduces toadstool's health to half much faster than 40 shattered spiders. I can't figure out how to prevent either of those from running away when he does a basic roar, though. It creates an opening that gets them killed before they can finish the job. I thought it was just bunnymen fleeing from damage, but shattered spiders don't have that behavior.

If your personal choice is to not use the items that make Abi stronger, why ask for even more strength? It's going to make her too strong for anyone actually using the elixirs. Can you justify changing other player's gameplay experience based on your personal choices? Many were happy with Wendy before her skill tree, and her tree contains only buffs.

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

Then better to ask nerf Vex effect to prevent Wendy from being Wolfgang. I would support you.

It's fine if it's just nerfed on beefalo. If shadow doesn't reward more DPS, then it's not worth the cost. Gestalt Abi needs to be the survival form, however, so shadow and normal can't be too durable versus bosses.

[Chewabacca]

4 hours ago, Steorra said:

And for the current stage, you may say that Wendy has her Ghastly elixir for fast recovering.

Yeah, just imagine that you playing Wanda now, you managed her in middle age for more damage output in boss fighting. You missed attention once time. Wanda get hitted. She step into old-age. Alzheimer happened. Well now your backstep watch and alarming clock all become disabled. You could easily flee and use your ageless watch to recover from this punishment before you restart your battle. Do you like this feeling?

See above.

When I was a noob learning DST bosses and playing Wendy, that is in fact what I did: fought for a time, then fled and waited for Abigail to heal, then returned to the fight, rinse and repeat. And you know what? Yeah, I did like that feeling. Waiting for Abigail's HP to return to a state where I judged that she would be an effective fighter never felt boring, like I was just waiting around. Instead, it felt tense and exciting, the way a boss fight should feel. Much more exciting than just hitting the boss over and over again, the way it would if Abigail was immortal.

I should add on that I main Walter now, and your Wanda analogy is quite similar to what happens to him now if he gets hit. With his (now-buffed to actually do decent damage) slingshot and his trusty mount Woby, Walter can ride around the battlefield, shooting at the boss. But if he's not careful and gets hit, Woby will buck him off and run away to cower, and Walter will be left on the ground, where there's not nearly as much tolerance for the slow wind-up speed of the slingshot and he will quickly get mashed to a pulp by the boss. Woby's damage tolerance is very low and even marble armor will not stop you from getting thrown off if any boss hits you twice. This is in fact enjoyable, because it keeps the stakes of the fight high, therefore making it exciting.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I can't figure out how to prevent either of those from running away when he does a basic roar, though. .

So you know the problem. 

 

7 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

If your personal choice is to not use the items that make Abi stronger, why ask for even more strength?

For sake of balance. Same reason to nerf cursed vex.

 

7 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Many were happy with Wendy before

There's no need to say "many" because the survey already show it.

 

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It's fine if it's just nerfed on beefalo.

No, it's imbalance. What made you think 208% damage modify is "fine"? Is that because of Wolfgang?

[Xplan]

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Can you justify changing other player's gameplay based on your personal choices?

i thought that is what we all were doing there.

i want a more tanky abi. But there are plenty of teachers in this forum, trying to tell me what the right way is, saying "tanky abi is gonna ruin wendy!"

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Many were happy with Wendy before her skill tree,

"many" is true, but not the majority of wendy players were happy.

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

nothing in her tree makes her weaker.

gestalt abi