From a Casual Wendy Main: Why Abigail's Player Tag Matters

[layangan putus]

7 minutes ago, Siren11 said:

Nope. I feel like some people here believe there is One Correct Way to play the game and anyone who is playing (or learning) DST differently is Doing It Wrong. It makes it really frustrating to share opinions here sometimes bc I feel like I just get shut down. And I really don’t like seeing people do it to Rena, who’s probably the sweetest person on the entire forum.

And I will reiterate my point. When you are only able to make a few mistakes before Abigail is out of the fight, it’s difficult to learn Wendy’s trickier than usual kiting patterns. I imagine that Sisturn III was just supposed to let Abigail withstand a few more hits, which in turn gives the player more time to figure out how to kite properly.

You can really tell a person by knowing how they'd deal with DF, like battle against DF is a hard puzzle by itself especially for new players unless you use "guides" and I've just tested again how player tag could give meaningful difference for Abi survival because the battle for Wendy & Abi against DF is slightly different from other characters in handling the lavaes part. Go test if you have time to fight DF as Wendy & Abi without beef & cheese just like most new players would attempt. Mistakes are bound to be made when learning to fight tough giants and Abi survival can smoothen the progress of players' process of learning.

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Xplan said:

almost all these weaknesses can be completely prevented by skill tree. There are so many skill trees that do.

Wendy's true weakness is 0.75 not fragile Wendy. Skill tree helped her by making Abi more tanky

i guess that is how Klei wanna design their game.

 

I am unaware of another skill tree that eliminates a character's main weakness quite like Wendy's.

This is backwards. Wendy's stated weakness is 0.75. This weakness only comes into play if Abigail is alive. Therefore Wendy's true weakness is keeping Abigail alive. Wendy being strong against swarms, but weak against bosses is common knowledge.

[IAmAFurrz]

23 minutes ago, Xplan said:

Who decides whether it is good or not? that is how they enjoy the boss fight. What is "a good walter"

a good walter can be many things. not the current walter. they did nothing interesting with the rest of his kit (pioneer hat is still bad, doesnt help with bees, and sanity on hit is still far too much even with it; camping kit exists) and for some reason focused mostly on slingshot being a viable ranged weapon by making it be able to cast shadow prison on bosses and shoot from far away instead of it being a support weapon and bypassing most of the games combat. little prep while having disproportionate reward, as well as extremely low risk for most bosses/incentivise not engaging fights at all (woby being an accessible mount, with punishment of bucking walter off if enough dmg has been taken, is part of this issue, she incentivises not fighting at all because bosses dont have ranged attacks that bypass his slows)

this is without mentioning the fact they find it 'at a good state' right now, because they still havent added any interesting rounds that do something different than slow, damage, or damage with slight aoe. the slow slingshot start-up animation means that speed ramping shooting is ONLY ranged, while not even supporting fighting up close at all (you can still throw out a nerf to the boss if you run away/wait for inbetween boss attacks but youre taking waaay more risk doing that)

[Catuna_]

Having Abigail only take player damage solidifies Wendy as a character who really just barely takes any thought, managing Abigail and caring about how, when and where she moves was the fun of Wendy... Obviously it still can be, I don't have to pick the perk or care about it especially since it's a pretty "go out of your way to do this" type of perk, but I'm just explaining about why I'm against it conceptually.

The mechanic is probably here to stay and while I'm entirely against it... I suppose if people enjoy it, then it's still a good addition.

[layangan putus]

51 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

Having Abigail only take player damage solidifies Wendy as a character who really just barely takes any thought, managing Abigail and caring about how, when and where she moves was the fun of Wendy... Obviously it still can be, I don't have to pick the perk or care about it especially since it's a pretty "go out of your way to do this" type of perk, but I'm just explaining about why I'm against it conceptually.

The mechanic is probably here to stay and while I'm entirely against it... I suppose if people enjoy it, then it's still a good addition.

Gotta clarify first that I am not fond of combo "player tag + spamming elixirs" - I am more of a lazy guy spamming command to Abi (it's free) to control the enemy movement. Just use one elixir or not before the fight starts. While I am lazy, those new players are clueless to even grasp the concept of preparation so basically they just rely solely on Abi (just summon her). Now we have Blessed Sisturn III as described below.

Lune Tree Blossoms are not that common to get because the players need to explore certain places first. This is not even calculating these stuff like they should have become familiar with The Constant, should have finally mustered the courage to fight giants, should have been failed several times trying to figure out the puzzle of bosses, maybe rollback maybe start new world who knows? Now dev team may add this skill to help some of these new players to finally win against some of the stronger & chunky giants like DF, BQ, & Toad because they are easily encountered during exploration. Fighting them without proper knowledge is hard especially without shenanigans so players can use this skill to have better chance of winning and you are against it? So what should these new players do to solve the combat puzzle?

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

I am unaware of another skill tree that eliminates a character's main weakness quite like Wendy's.

Woodie's skill goes far more than Wendy. So does Winona's.

Wendy still have weakness when facing shadows. especially when in ruins.

beefalo already have its own downside if you want to talk about it. it is just an option to replace current downside by other beefalo one.

[NINA1917]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

Having Abigail only take player damage solidifies Wendy as a character who really just barely takes any thought, managing Abigail and caring about how, when and where she moves was the fun of Wendy... Obviously it still can be, I don't have to pick the perk or care about it especially since it's a pretty "go out of your way to do this" type of perk, but I'm just explaining about why I'm against it conceptually.

The mechanic is probably here to stay and while I'm entirely against it... I suppose if people enjoy it, then it's still a good addition.

In fact, you still need to take care of Abigail, but this care requires a lot of preparation before the battle, and the prepared potions are consumed during the battle.
Much of the effort in preparation is invisible in combat.
The new battle is indeed boring, but this is not a simple op problem. Considering the cost, it is still in balance.
This problem arises as a result of the combined effect of two factors - player tag + magic potion
In order to avoid this boring situation and prevent Abigail from returning to a "weak" state for non-hardcore players, we just need to add some mechanism to limit the abuse of potions.

[NINA1917]

2 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Halve the effectiveness of Spectral Cure-All on player-tag Abigail. 

Boom.

In fact, I'll include it in my suggestion collection now.

I know, I saw your idea and it inspired me

[ColdHeaven]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

Having Abigail only take player damage solidifies Wendy as a character who really just barely takes any thought, managing Abigail and caring about how, when and where she moves was the fun of Wendy... Obviously it still can be, I don't have to pick the perk or care about it especially since it's a pretty "go out of your way to do this" type of perk, but I'm just explaining about why I'm against it conceptually.

The mechanic is probably here to stay and while I'm entirely against it... I suppose if people enjoy it, then it's still a good addition.

I'm very tired of arguing of these extremely vocal Wendy mains, most of the argument they make are flimsy anyways.

 

The way i see it, there are two sides from wendy players, the casuals and the veterans.

The casual side think wendy is wes when facing bosses.

The veteran side learned how to keep Abigail alive and therefore think she is strong.

So klei is very stuck here, unable to appeal to both sides at the same time.

So, what should klei do? Let's think about what both sides want.

The casuals want skill tree to increase wendy's power because they lack the mechanical skill

The veterans having already solved Wendy's weakness through skill and strategy want more quality of life

 

Have wendy's skill tree branch between Quality of life of Wendy and Power of Abigail. It may require drastic changes of the skill tree but that's the only way i can see both sides being happy. This also give wendy mains a way to progress too, as they learn and play wendy enough they can ditch a part of the Abigail branch and go for more quality of life options, making skill tree more dynamic and less static between players.

[renamoe]

3 hours ago, katarinagray03 said:

I love this! Thank you for explaining it well.

Hi katarinagray03! I'm so glad to see your comment, and I hope you're enjoying the most recent update as much as I am. It makes me really happy to know we might share some of the same feelings about it.

2 hours ago, Siren11 said:

Nope. I feel like some people here believe there is One Correct Way to play the game and anyone who is playing (or learning) DST differently is Doing It Wrong. It makes it really frustrating to share opinions here sometimes bc I feel like I just get shut down. And I really don’t like seeing people do it to Rena, who’s probably the sweetest person on the entire forum.

And I will reiterate my point. When you are only able to make a few mistakes before Abigail is out of the fight, it’s difficult to learn Wendy’s trickier than usual kiting patterns. I imagine that Sisturn III was just supposed to let Abigail withstand a few more hits, which in turn gives the player more time to figure out how to kite properly.

Thank you so much for your kind words—they really mean a lot to me and bring me a sense of warmth and acknowledgment. I truly appreciate it.

I agree that playing as Wendy can come with unique challenges, especially when trying to experiment with different strategies. I'm not a game designer, so I might not fully understand how certain mechanics could be overpowered or disrupt the balance, but I can share my experience. Personally, I rely heavily on bringing lots of Revenant Restorative for Abigail, desummoning her when her HP gets too low, and resummoning her once she's almost recovered. It's effective in its way, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't stressful or a bit clunky to manage in tougher fights.

1 hour ago, Lee lol said:

I don't know why anyone would accuse the poster of not learning the kite boss, as if Abigail wouldn't get hurt in the fight if you learned how to  kite boss...... Also, the latency of multiplayer game makes kiting more difficult.
For Deeclops and Bearger, even if you kite them well, Abi is still having a hard time surviving, you have to constantly reclaim Abi, give her potions, and this interrupts the rhythm of the fight, I can understand why someone chooses to stand and press F instead of managing Abi while kiteing the boss, because it's simpler and more effective. BQ is not suitable for kites. The hardest thing for old Abi was the CC, and I chose to ride the beefalo every time because Abi could barely survive. As for the bosses in the post-rift era, not to mention, basically all of them have powerful AOE abilities, which require you to do perfect Abi management while kiting them well, and I have to say that it is a painful thing to constantly retract - give potions - summon Abi while dodging boss attacks in a single battle, which is why we give Abi players a label.

The point is, giving Abi a potion in battle - retracting Abi - continuing to give her the potion - while dodging the boss's attacks is not fun, on the contrary, it is boring. I've done this too many times, and it's not an easy or hard question, it's a fun-uninteresting one, like everyone would say it's easy to wash dishes, but we all don't like to wash dishes.

You've made some excellent points, and I completely agree. Even if the player learns how to kite perfectly, Abigail still ends up dying far too easily in boss fights. This creates a frustrating gameplay loop where the game doesn't reward the player's efforts in a meaningful way, which I think negatively impacts the overall experience.

You also highlighted the repetitive cycle—giving Abigail a potion, desummoning her, waiting for her to restore HP, summoning her again with the risk of her dying all over again. It's a tedious process that feels more like a chore than engaging gameplay. Because of this, I often end up fighting bosses by myself (and sometimes with the help of my friends) instead of relying on Abigail, which defeats the purpose of Wendy and Abigail's bond.

21 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Halve the effectiveness of Spectral Cure-All on player-tag Abigail. 

Boom.

In fact, I'll include it in my suggestion collection now.

I personally haven't used Spectral Cure-All much, but if it's causing imbalance or creating issues, then I imagine Klei might consider making adjustments.

3 hours ago, Siren11 said:

I do have to ask though, have you tested it against any of the tougher bosses yet? I had a realization about this. I believe out of the four you mentioned, only Celestial Champion deals more damage to mobs (and even then, I don’t think it’s a huge difference).

I plan to test it in my main game slot eventually when the live release comes out, especially if Klei improves Abigail's survivability further. I'm not someone who spends a lot of time debugging or testing extensively, and I think there are others in the community who are more experienced in that area. For now, I've watched videos showcasing the hotfix and experimented a little with how I might allocate insight points. However, I plan to fully test it out when everything is finalized and settled with the live release.

As for tougher bosses like the Celestial Champion, I've only faced it in someone else's world. I managed to survive, but Abigail didn't last very long. At the moment, my friend and I haven't even unlocked the Shadow or Lunar affinities in Wendy's skill tree. Our immediate goal in January will be defeating the Ancient Fuelweaver and Celestial Guardian. After that, we'll see how things go with the Rift Era bosses.

[YuRinshue]

2 hours ago, ColdHeaven said:

I'm very tired of arguing of these extremely vocal Wendy mains, most of the argument they make are flimsy anyways.

 

The way i see it, there are two sides from wendy players, the casuals and the veterans.

The casual side think wendy is wes when facing bosses.

The veteran side learned how to keep Abigail alive and therefore think she is strong.

So klei is very stuck here, unable to appeal to both sides at the same time.

So, what should klei do? Let's think about what both sides want.

The casuals want skill tree to increase wendy's power because they lack the mechanical skill

The veterans having already solved Wendy's weakness through skill and strategy want more quality of life

 

Have wendy's skill tree branch between Quality of life of Wendy and Power of Abigail. It may require drastic changes of the skill tree but that's the only way i can see both sides being happy. This also give wendy mains a way to progress too, as they learn and play wendy enough they can ditch a part of the Abigail branch and go for more quality of life options, making skill tree more dynamic and less static between players.

Unfortunately, the duality I gained from Wendy's discussion seems to be very different from yours.
Before adding player tags, Wendy needs several times the amount of operations compared to other characters to achieve a basic 1.0 attack coefficient that a character should have for powerful boss battles.
I personally went to the testing server to experience it, and now that players have joined, it has alleviated this to a good extent, allowing her to bring about a profit of about 1.25 with much higher operation volume than other characters.
This does not belong to the complete elimination of the problem, her workload has only increased from far unreasonable to an acceptable level. If you also have tests, you will understand what I am saying.
As for the people you mentioned who "can keep Abigail alive" and those who "think Abigail is powerful". I think only a very small number of people possess both of these characteristics simultaneously.
Many people who think Abigail is powerful actually care more about her ability to easily kill spiders and the low cost of her functions. That's it.
On the contrary, it is the people who can keep Abigail alive who feel that Wendy needs to spend more energy protecting Abigail to defeat a powerful boss than using a normal character.

3 hours ago, Lardee said:

I am unaware of another skill tree that eliminates a character's main weakness quite like Wendy's.

This is backwards. Wendy's stated weakness is 0.75. This weakness only comes into play if Abigail is alive. Therefore Wendy's true weakness is keeping Abigail alive. Wendy being strong against swarms, but weak against bosses is common knowledge.

I'm afraid I can give too many negative examples to respond to your 'don't know'.
Votox can use his skill tree to eliminate the label of being attacked by neutral creatures, or offset his inability to carry too many souls.
Winona can use her skill tree to accurately command and transport her bulky and disobedient equipment in a portable manner.
Woody can use his skill tree to counteract the impact of a full moon and eliminate the state decline caused by using skills. At the same time, he solves the problem of insufficient defense ability and lack of physical damage in the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift environment.
Vila can use her skill tree to create dwarf stars and absorb flames to counteract the cold, and even prevent spoils from being burned.
And Wendy's player tag was her first attempt to alleviate her shortcomings, whether it was in terms of consumption points (requiring at least 3 points), the degree of resolution compared to each character mentioned above (Wendy only alleviates rather than resolves), or the convenience level (requiring specialized collection of a non daily item). The solutions are far inferior to those of other characters, so I don't think this change is unacceptable.

[Yifei_]

43 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

I'm afraid I can give too many negative examples to respond to your 'don't know'.
Votox can use his skill tree to eliminate the label of being attacked by neutral creatures, or offset his inability to carry too many souls.
Winona can use her skill tree to accurately command and transport her bulky and disobedient equipment in a portable manner.
Woody can use his skill tree to counteract the impact of a full moon and eliminate the state decline caused by using skills. At the same time, he solves the problem of insufficient defense ability and lack of physical damage in the Lunar Rift/Shadow Rift environment.
Vila can use her skill tree to create dwarf stars and absorb flames to counteract the cold, and even prevent spoils from being burned.
And Wendy's player tag was her first attempt to alleviate her shortcomings, whether it was in terms of consumption points (requiring at least 3 points), the degree of resolution compared to each character mentioned above (Wendy only alleviates rather than resolves), or the convenience level (requiring specialized collection of a non daily item). The solutions are far inferior to those of other characters, so I don't think this change is unacceptable.

Absolutely agree.

[layangan putus]

The logic is valid but is it all true?

 

First, A = B, B = C, then A = C so if Wig's weakness is meat lover. This weakness only comes into play if Wig doesn't find meat based food. Therefore Wig's true weakness is finding meat based food? This will be the truth if the second premise is all true since it's between true and false then it's not really true as long as Wig finds meats but sure players are challenged to deal with the true weakness and yes they can do that as long as they know what to do. In case of Wendy & Abi, there are no available solutions for certain bosses except to succumb to her 0.75 cage except riding beef and wearing planar equipment for now. To simply put, the premise B is always true for her in few cases (This is my foundation to make arguments about Wendy because I play to have fun not to unnecessarily suffer). I mean I choose Wendy to avoid Wilson combat experience (I don't care about damage, I care about interactions when combating foes), but the game doesn't allow me to effectively use Abi for few bosses and shadow creatures. Although maybe there are people who can deal effectively with all bosses using Wendy & Abi - I just haven't found the solutions yet. This reminds me of a certain game design which keeping levelling system from players behind accepting a request from a random girl - Hmm. 

 

TLDR: Is it good design if Wig should survive with no single piece of meat to be found at all?

[NINA1917]

3 hours ago, ColdHeaven said:

I'm very tired of arguing of these extremely vocal Wendy mains, most of the argument they make are flimsy anyways.

 

The way i see it, there are two sides from wendy players, the casuals and the veterans.

The casual side think wendy is wes when facing bosses.

The veteran side learned how to keep Abigail alive and therefore think she is strong.

So klei is very stuck here, unable to appeal to both sides at the same time.

So, what should klei do? Let's think about what both sides want.

The casuals want skill tree to increase wendy's power because they lack the mechanical skill

The veterans having already solved Wendy's weakness through skill and strategy want more quality of life

 

Have wendy's skill tree branch between Quality of life of Wendy and Power of Abigail. It may require drastic changes of the skill tree but that's the only way i can see both sides being happy. This also give wendy mains a way to progress too, as they learn and play wendy enough they can ditch a part of the Abigail branch and go for more quality of life options, making skill tree more dynamic and less static between players.

It's true that players are divided, but the representation of the perception of skilled players is biased.
At least I and my former game partners believe that Wendy itself is not powerful, and Abigail’s role is to improve the quality of daily life and reduce minor troubles 

（hound attack, light).
In the past, Abigail was basically a liability in real boss battles.
It does have the potential to increase dps when used wisely, but most of the time we'll just take her back to flower simply due to low returns and laziness - and then enjoy Wes's normal combat routine.
This is not irony, apart from our love for the character itself, we do think that Wendy is just a Wes with a better quality of life, and chose this role with this understanding, enjoying the improvement in quality of life that Abigail brings, Also enjoyed the challenge of the boss fight when Abby was absent.

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Xplan said:

Wendy's true weakness is 0.75 not fragile Wendy. Skill tree helped her by making Abi more tanky

Which isn't true in the slightest if Abigail is a tank since it means her damage multiplier is always higher than most characters so she's not fragile she's just a heavy hitter by default. So in other words she has no downsides or character related risks involved it's weird to suddenly do that to a character and if the argument is well it's to hard to try and improve yourself why should any character have to improve? Because the same arguement applies equally. It's also very deceptive that some people are trying to make this sound like veteran gatekeeping to try to justify this fact.

[Lardee]

3 hours ago, DST enjoyer said:

but the game doesn't allow me to effectively use Abi for few bosses and shadow creatures.

This one statement sums up everything wrong with the "make Wendy easier" argument.

There are maybe 2-3 bosses where keeping Abigail alive is inviably difficult. Why is this a problem? Since when do we need to buff characters until they are strong against literally every obstacle they come across?

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

This one statement sums up everything wrong with the "make Wendy easier" argument.

There are maybe 2-3 bosses where keeping Abigail alive is inviably difficult. Why is this a problem? Since when do we need to buff characters until they are strong against literally every obstacle they come across?

What are those bosses?

I ask because I just saw a strat for keeping her alive for armored bearger, using the attack here command.

[Lardee]

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

What are those bosses?

I ask because I just saw a strat for keeping her alive for armored bearger, using the attack here command.

The 2-3 would be bearger, armored bearger and crystal deerclops, but if she's viable even against armored bearger, then she's viable against everything.

[Chewabacca]

3 hours ago, NINA1917 said:

It's true that players are divided, but the representation of the perception of skilled players is biased.
At least I and my former game partners believe that Wendy itself is not powerful, and Abigail’s role is to improve the quality of daily life and reduce minor troubles 

（hound attack, light).
In the past, Abigail was basically a liability in real boss battles.
It does have the potential to increase dps when used wisely, but most of the time we'll just take her back to flower simply due to low returns and laziness - and then enjoy Wes's normal combat routine.
This is not irony, apart from our love for the character itself, we do think that Wendy is just a Wes with a better quality of life, and chose this role with this understanding, enjoying the improvement in quality of life that Abigail brings, Also enjoyed the challenge of the boss fight when Abby was absent.

A 0.75 damage multiplier is in no way an insurmountable barrier to Wendy fighting bosses even when she has to do things on her own. Taking Armored Bearger as an example since everyone seems to love bringing him up: assuming he's using a ham bat at full freshness or a dark sword, Wilson needs 118-135 hits to kill him. Wendy on her own using the same equipment needs 157-180 hits. 40 or so hits is not that much more, especially when the boss is so tanky in the first place, and you likely will be able to use Abigail for some portion of the fight, even just a small one. A side note: I am far from a skilled player in terms of combat (have never beaten either Fuelweaver or Celestial Champion, have never opened rifts) and while I've played Wendy before, it was mostly in DS, where Wendy has steeper penalties from losing Abigail.

And "reduce minor troubles" are you kidding me? Do you realize how good Abigail is at farming spiders and bees compared to every other character out there? Yes, every other character can kill those things and gather the associated resource, but it takes longer, requires more attention, and is more dangerous early game. Same as how Wendy can kill bosses, she just takes longer to do it. This is not a game centered around bosses, it's a survival game, and there's a grand total of one mandatory boss (Deerclops), maybe two if you count Antlion. If you need to take longer to prep for the optional bosses, you can do that.

[Pig Princess]

7 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The 2-3 would be bearger, armored bearger and crystal deerclops, but if she's viable even against armored bearger, then she's viable against everything.

She is viable against Crystal Deerclops even without skill tree. You just need magi and cane, as well as vigor mortis. She basically fights like Wilson, and I wish there was another way to do the fight, but alas. Skill tree didn't change anything in that regard, although I suppose using murdering strategically instead of 20 butterflies for whole duration of the fight somewhat counts. Still, it's not enough to be considered different strategy.

If such methods exists, I would appreciate the link/describtion.

[layangan putus]

41 minutes ago, Lardee said:

This one statement sums up everything wrong with the "make Wendy easier" argument.

There are maybe 2-3 bosses where keeping Abigail alive is inviably difficult. Why is this a problem? Since when do we need to buff characters until they are strong against literally every obstacle they come across?

Let's start with shorter reply to later determine "strong" and "easier".

 

Woodie (Weremoose) has these funny and cool combat experiences during toadstool fight despite not being able to use Lucy to chop by charging down the sporecaps, on par against Enraged DF despite not being able to play panflute, playing cat & mouse with her majesty BQ. I know you've solved the puzzles and I am happy how the existence of skill tree can make it possible - Because players pre-skill tree didn't get to experience more of that (Ms. Wicker and WG can tho).

 

Do you enjoy that unique experience of being Woodie? Please describe the experience if you will.

[Lardee]

23 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

Let's start with shorter reply to later determine "strong" and "easier".

Woodie (Weremoose) has these funny and cool combat experiences during toadstool fight despite not being able to use Lucy to chop by charging down the sporecaps, on par against Enraged DF despite not being able to play panflute, playing cat & mouse with her majesty BQ. I know you've solved the puzzles and I am happy how the existence of skill tree can make it possible - Because players pre-skill tree didn't get to experience more of that (Ms. Wicker and WG can tho).

Do you enjoy that unique experience of being Woodie? Please describe the experience if you will.

Yeah all of that was great which further proves my point. At the time of her skill tree, kiting Enraged DF as the moose was seen as a fun, but dangerous way to fight. Bee Queen was seen as impossible without an elaborate setup. Fuelweaver was also considered impossible. So was Crab King.

Was the solution to this Klei simply buffing the Moose's stun resistance and regeneration in order to let the "average player" beat Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Fuelweaver or Crab King? 

Was the solution to this Klei removing the Moose's downside of not being able to use items?

No.

Woodie's skill tree was rolled out even though a bunch of fights were deemed impossible. Over time players eventually learned to skillfully use Woodie's new abilities to overcome those obstacles.

 

This is what makes Woodie an incredibly fun character. This is also what you guys are trying to take away from Wendy by simply removing her downside.

[layangan putus]

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Yeah all of that was great which further proves my point. At the time of her skill tree, kiting Enraged DF as the moose was seen as a fun, but dangerous way to fight. Bee Queen was seen as impossible without an elaborate setup. Fuelweaver was also considered impossible. So was Crab King.

Was the solution to this Klei simply buffing the Moose's stun resistance and regeneration in order to let the "average player" beat Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Fuelweaver or Crab King? 

Was the solution to this Klei removing the Moose's downside of not being able to use items?

No.

Woodie's skill tree was rolled out even though a bunch of fights were deemed impossible. Over time players eventually learned to skillfully use Woodie's new abilities to overcome those obstacles.

 

This is what makes Woodie an incredibly fun character. This is also what you guys are trying to take away from Wendy by simply removing her downside.

Thank you for your feedback! Now let's talk about power and their decision.

 

Let's be brief about power, they always have certain amount of time with beta and creativity can sometimes be limited so the development back then was what we get now. Then how about Wurt? Winona? Willow? I don't see consistency about them trying to keep the power balance between characters. That's why I don't really try to relate this issue with power differences since in the end anyone can beat any PvE games given enough effort and time but there are many people struggling with DST and unfortunately they don't have much time to "git gud" especially with current Scrapbook. The conundrum is that DST as unique product with tailored characters must compete with other popular games out there with open to interpretation main character meaning the iterative game design would be heavily tailored for the bosses' fight because that's the biggest hook to then maintain good revenue and bring DST back to its former glorious days. Obviously, I can't speak for Klei as I am nobody but this is just my logical conclusion after linking all the facts like it's hard to compete with DS game design philosophy in the current game market because I as customer can easily tell what a good product is. Buffing looks like hurting the original design of this game but let's be real here, DST is almost like unsolvable puzzle with high stakes (heavily relied on meta knowledge) and so many gamers just dislike this because it's wasting their time. You can say, "Well.. the game is not for you then." You are correct but then you realize how many people thinking that way. How many big influencers do skip or drop the game because they don't find it interesting enough? And here we are debating about controversial last beta update - Wondering why they suddenly give Wendy power to easily defeat giants. I think they want more players to defeat the giants so we all can move on.

 

Let the players beat the bosses so they feel joy. Now joy is addicting so hopefully they'd try more runs with different characters and maybe they'd buy skins and repeat and so on. I say that's healthier than being clueless after hundred hours if not thousand hours in-game.

[Cassielu]

31 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Over time

I don't think time less than 10 hours can be referred as "over time" and evidence your point.

[Lardee]

5 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

Thank you for your feedback! Now let's talk about power and their decision.

Let's be brief about power, they always have certain amount of time with beta and creativity can sometimes be limited so the development back then was what we get now. Then how about Wurt? Winona? Willow? I don't see consistency about them trying to keep the power balance between characters. That's why I don't really try to relate this issue with power differences since in the end anyone can beat any PvE games given enough effort and time but there are many people struggling with DST and unfortunately they don't have much time to "git gud" especially with current Scrapbook. The conundrum is that DST as unique product with tailored characters must compete with other popular games out there with open to interpretation main character meaning the iterative game design would be heavily tailored for the bosses' fight because that's the biggest hook to then maintain good revenue and bring DST back to its former glorious days. Obviously, I can't speak for Klei as I am nobody but this is just my logical conclusion after linking all the facts like it's hard to compete with DS game design philosophy in the current game market because I as customer can easily tell what a good product is. Buffing looks like hurting the original design of this game but let's be real here, DST is almost like unsolvable puzzle with high stakes (heavily relied on meta knowledge) and so many gamers just dislike this because it's wasting their time. You can say, "Well.. the game is not for you then." You are correct but then you realize how many people thinking that way. How many big influencers do skip or drop the game because they don't find it interesting enough? And here we are debating about controversial last beta update - Wondering why they suddenly gives Wendy power to easily defeat giants. I think they want more players to defeat the giants so we all can move on.

 

Let the players beat the bosses so they feel joy. Now joy is addicting so hopefully they'd try more runs with different characters and maybe they'd buy skins and repeat and so on. I say that's healthier than being clueless after hundred hours if not thousand hours in-game.

First, the "don't have time to get gud" argument doesn't make sense considering no one was making that argument about Woodie.

Second, there are a bunch of options that do not require you to "get gud" like Gestalt Abigail or Spectral Cure All. 

Third, the obstacles people bring up are typically Rift bosses. If you're fighting rift bosses and are posting on Klei forums, then you have and are willing to invest time into the game.

 

Your argument about Klei needing to sell more copies is probably the best one I've seen in defense of removing Wendy's downsides. If that's what Klei needs in order to keep the game going, then I don't have much issue with it. However I highly doubt that's the case.

2 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

I don't think less than 10 hours can be referred as "over time" and evidence that.

You're saying Bee Queen, Fuelweaver, and Crab King were figured out within 10 hours of Woodie's skill tree being released?