From a Casual Wendy Main: Why Abigail's Player Tag Matters

[Steorra]

21 minutes ago, Lardee said:

You're saying ... ,Fuelweaver, ... were figured out within 10 hours of Woodie's skill tree being released?

AFW: where these treeguards from?

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

AFW: where these treeguards from?

We're talking specifically about the Weremoose form. Pre-skill tree Woodie was already capable of beating every boss.

[Cassielu]

23 minutes ago, Lardee said:

You're saying Bee Queen, Fuelweaver, and Crab King were figured out within 10 hours of Woodie's skill tree being released?

Oops I just checked and found that I had the wrong date.

sry you guys keep your topic going.

[SpookyXy]

11 hours ago, zzzzzzzzzzz said:

The atmosphere of the forum was destroyed by a group of people who maliciously emphasized balance.

It's nice to see the few warmth here. I want to rest here.

"Malicious" balance is a wild sentence.

[Koomin]

3 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

"Malicious" balance is a wild sentence.

Hoards of evil minded people maliciously suggesting the game should be balanced.  The end of the world is truly here.

[layangan putus]

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

First, the "don't have time to get gud" argument doesn't make sense considering no one was making that argument about Woodie.

You said "Over time players eventually learned to skillfully use Woodie's new abilities to overcome those obstacles." is similar case for Wendy casuals. Playing better like most of the experienced players have been practicing takes time unless you are super talented in playing video games. I think the casuals are busy and clueless about console command and also no time to linger around in forum so no arguments about that been made but we'll see. For new players, I just tell I've seen many past until recent videos of many DST attempts and most of them just drop the game so no next video.

 

5 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Second, there are a bunch of options that do not require you to "get gud" like Gestalt Abigail or Spectral Cure All.

Yea most new/casual players haven't unlocked Gestalt yet and they haven't really experienced enough gathering mourning glories and drinking elixirs during combat but we'll see the forum on the holiday. As for the new players, well they don't even bother with the Insight system, busy with being familiar with the control and threats.

 

8 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Third, the obstacles people bring up are typically Rift bosses. If you're fighting rift bosses and are posting on Klei forums, then you have and are willing to invest time into the game.

Yea they argue a lot about post-rift bosses and surely the video posters are not beginners and already familiar enough with DST post-rift contents. Well classic forum is full of bunch of whiners like myself, it's open for everyone, people just wanna express something - I see no harm in that and the dev team are surely capable to know what makes sense and not like you can easily ignore something silly, why do you care? Although I remember posted something about relation between shadow/lunar power and post-rift bosses like you can only make fair evaluation about skills being good or not by knowing if it's effective against post-rift bosses because that's when you'd unlock them. The focus is unique experience not kill time.

 

11 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Your argument about Klei needing to sell more copies is probably the best one I've seen in defense of removing Wendy's downsides. If that's what Klei needs in order to keep the game going, then I don't have much issue with it. However I highly doubt that's the case.

I am actually chaotic-neutral but I am just concerned with Wendy outrageous posts like it must mean something wrong happening right? I thought about helping them convey their reasoning. Most of the sharpest ones here are defending Wendy & Abi original design, thus let's add more spices! 

[arubaro]

13 hours ago, renamoe said:

To summarize briefly: I struggle with boss fights because Abigail dies too easily.

No, because you refuse to improve 

13 hours ago, renamoe said:

hope this helps clarify our perspective. I don't think casual players like us are "lesser" or "lower-tier". Casual playing is also a valid playstyle, and while we don't mind taking things slow, we still want to tackle key bosses to progress into the Rift Era.

Sure, valid for what it matters. I dont think is valid to remove the base difficulty of the game just because there are a group of players that refuse to learn how to beat the challenges neither have enough with the many settings the game offers to make the experience more casual

About experiencing rift content...is precisely made, or atleast they are trying, to bring challenges so everybody who wants to experience it needs to beat it.

Also the game already offers many default settings tools to make everything a cake walk like an already wide variety of over characters and celestial portal to mix perks. This game can be beaten by simply accumulating resources and holding F... why do you pretent for klei to make it even more stupid? Isnt enough with many powerful characters, game settings and game breaking mechanics? No, the difficulty needs to be lowered just because there are people who dont like to make a minimal of effort

Would be like saying "remove winter low temperature and make wes more powerful than wolfgang because im a casual player who likes to play a wes without making the effort that takes surviving winter as wes"

The game should be balanced because by your logic tryhards could make the same kind of topic asking to be listened so the game becomes a hard game instead of a tea party with teddie bears

12 hours ago, Koomin said:

It does seem like if you have played 1000 hours and are tanking every boss in the game without trying to kite, maybe a better solution to the problem would be trying to engage with the game mechanics and try it?  Instead of advocating for a character to be made strong enough to defeat everything in the game without engaging with the game mechanics, which just basically removes a fun character as an option for people that do.

But is more confortable to change the world arround you cuz "i cant i dont try" than making a slight effort during 1000h... nobody in their sane mind would ask them to make hitless fw rush day 6... but in 1000h you have plenty of time to learn how to kite an enemy like klaus which is way easier than most of easy bosses in other videogames 

Everybody can play as they please but pretending to make everything suit their lack of will... that isnt even a healthy mindset

12 hours ago, Siren11 said:

Nope. I feel like some people here believe there is One Correct Way to play the game and anyone who is playing (or learning) DST differently is Doing It Wrong. It makes it really frustrating to share opinions here sometimes bc I feel like I just get shut down. And I really don’t like seeing people do it to Rena, who’s probably the sweetest person on the entire forum.

And I will reiterate my point. When you are only able to make a few mistakes before Abigail is out of the fight, it’s difficult to learn Wendy’s trickier than usual kiting patterns. I imagine that Sisturn III was just supposed to let Abigail withstand a few more hits, which in turn gives the player more time to figure out how to kite properly.

There are characters which a core mechanic that allows more mistakes

Is frustrating how people want to change how the game is played because they believe that their way of playing is the only way correct to the point of the game needing to be updated in that way which changes the game's philosophy 

[Grove]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

She is viable against Crystal Deerclops even without skill tree. You just need magi and cane, as well as vigor mortis. She basically fights like Wilson, and I wish there was another way to do the fight, but alas. Skill tree didn't change anything in that regard, although I suppose using murdering strategically instead of 20 butterflies for whole duration of the fight somewhat counts. Still, it's not enough to be considered different strategy.

If such methods exists, I would appreciate the link/describtion.

Here

I screwed up a bunch during the fight (such as using a weapon that deals more damage the furthur you are at point blank range), and was pretty unlucky in Crystal targeting Abigail a lot 

From my experience, Crystal will usually target you, at least at the start of the fight. But seems to always target Abigail when it rises up after you knock it down.

10 butterflies is overdoing it, and I also think that the attack at command could be good when starting the fight. I remember it having some kind of 6 to 7 seconds timer that has something to do with aggro. And when I tried dashing on a bunch of beef, they seemed to lose aggro surprisingly quick. Might have been changed last hotfix though.

[layangan putus]

19 minutes ago, arubaro said:

No, because you refuse to improve 

Sure, valid for what it matters. I dont think is valid to remove the base difficulty of the game just because there are a group of players that refuse to learn how to beat the challenges neither have enough with the many settings the game offers to make the experience more casual

About experiencing rift content...is precisely made, or atleast they are trying, to bring challenges so everybody who wants to experience it needs to beat it.

Also the game already offers many default settings tools to make everything a cake walk like an already wide variety of over characters and celestial portal to mix perks. This game can be beaten by simply accumulating resources and holding F... why do you pretent for klei to make it even more stupid? Isnt enough with many powerful characters, game settings and game breaking mechanics? No, the difficulty needs to be lowered just because there are people who dont like to make a minimal of effort

Would be like saying "remove winter low temperature and make wes more powerful than wolfgang because im a casual player who likes to play a wes without making the effort that takes surviving winter as wes"

The game should be balanced because by your logic tryhards could make the same kind of topic asking to be listened so the game becomes a hard game instead of a tea party with teddie bears

But is more confortable to change the world arround you cuz "i cant i dont try" than making a slight effort during 1000h... nobody in their sane mind would ask them to make hitless fw rush day 6... but in 1000h you have plenty of time to learn how to kite an enemy like klaus which is way easier than most of easy bosses in other videogames 

Everybody can play as they please but pretending to make everything suit their lack of will... that isnt even a healthy mindset

There are characters which a core mechanic that allows more mistakes

Is frustrating how people want to change how the game is played because they believe that their way of playing is the only way correct to the point of the game needing to be updated in that way which changes the game's philosophy 

So they just quit the game entirely? Nice job!

You don't know what they've been through and maybe DST is their medicine or something. I say any games are not worth my will for that matter, hell they are just games - Why should you bother? Although, the original plan of this game is to make money out of anti-socials, now we know the backlash. Keep preaching more about your taste, at least the dev team do listen to these casuals and treat them with respect.

[arubaro]

1 minute ago, DST enjoyer said:

So they just quit the game entirely? Nice job!

You don't know what they've been through and maybe DST is their medicine or something. I say any games are not worth my will for that matter, hell they are just games - Why should you bother? Although, the original plan of this game is to make money out of anti-socials, now we know the backlash. Keep preaching more about your taste, at least the dev team do listen to these casuals and treat them with respect.

Wow nice imagination,  i never said anything like that. As i said the game already provides a lot of solutions for casuals so no need to ruin the game for the ones who arent casuals

Come on, lets say what you make up for your next response to an imaginary comment to support your propaganda 

[Grove]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

She is viable against Crystal Deerclops even without skill tree. You just need magi and cane, as well as vigor mortis. She basically fights like Wilson, and I wish there was another way to do the fight, but alas. Skill tree didn't change anything in that regard, although I suppose using murdering strategically instead of 20 butterflies for whole duration of the fight somewhat counts. Still, it's not enough to be considered different strategy.

If such methods exists, I would appreciate the link/describtion.

Just realized that I screwed up the link, sorry about that

[layangan putus]

8 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Wow nice imagination,  i never said anything like that. As i said the game already provides a lot of solutions for casuals so no need to ruin the game for the ones who arent casuals

Come on, lets say what you make up for your next response to an imaginary comment to support your propaganda 

Second warning.. I'll give you three chances. You can simply control yourself by not replying this.

 

I think you are good with DST, surely you must be also good at this game called "life". For difficulty matter, anyone can easily do self-imposed challenges to increase the difficulty of the game by not using something since when you have already known enough then that's it you have the most powerful tool in DST - Developing the game will be hard to keep up with the taste for this specific condition, just go read the entire discussions from this post.

[Koomin]

12 minutes ago, DST enjoyer said:

So they just quit the game entirely? Nice job!

You don't know what they've been through and maybe DST is their medicine or something. I say any games are not worth my will for that matter, hell they are just games - Why should you bother? Although, the original plan of this game is to make money out of anti-socials, now we know the backlash. Keep preaching more about your taste, at least the dev team do listen to these casuals and treat them with respect.

There are way better solutions to this problem than ruining a character for people that engage with and learn the game mechanics by making them massively overpowered.  Klei could just improve the methods through which people learn the basics of the game, like kiting. For example, make it really easy for people to boot up a server and spawn in a deerclops to practice the skill in a low-risk environment.  Giving up completely on people learning your game and making a character that a lot of people have enjoyed for a while just be for casuals is absolutely not the solution, and once this beta is complete Wendy's power level will not realistically be adjusted. 

The "but the poor casuals" arguments seem to largely be something to hide behind for people that want their character to be overpowered at this point.

 

 

 

 

[Chewabacca]

This is a sandbox survival game. Why do casual players need to be able to beat all the optional challenge bosses to have fun?

[Lee lol]

4 hours ago, Debruh said:

这里

我在战斗中搞砸了一堆（比如使用一种武器，你在近距离内越远，伤害就越大），而且很不走运，水晶经常瞄准阿比盖尔

根据我的经验，Crystal 通常会以你为目标，至少在战斗开始时是这样。但似乎总是以 Abigail 为目标，当它在你击倒它后升起时。

10 只蝴蝶做得太过分了，我还认为在开始战斗时命令攻击可能会很好。我记得它有某种 6 到 7 秒的计时器，这与快攻有关。当我尝试冲向一堆牛肉时，它们似乎很快就失去了仇恨。不过，上次的热修复可能已经更改了。

Cool. You behaved perfectly. I'd like to know how you can use Gestalt against the Crystal Deer, as as far as my tests go, she appears very clumsy and more difficult to control than Shadow Abi, it would be a little better to give her a speed potion, but I would also like to use the other potions as well

[MisterBilly]

1 hour ago, Chewabacca said:

This is a sandbox survival game. Why do casual players need to be able to beat all the optional challenge bosses to have fun?

Probably because almost every content update is post-rift content.

[renamoe]

2 hours ago, MisterBilly said:

Probably because almost every content update is post-rift content.

I think you've hit the key point here. For me, a big part of the enjoyment comes from gathering resources and preparing for a challenging fight—it's satisfying and immersive. However, it becomes frustrating when Abigail dies too easily, leaving us struggling to manage the fight.

On top of that, some bosses are essential to the main story and progression of the game. Bosses like the Crab King, the Shadow Pieces, the Ancient Fuelweaver, and the Celestial Champion are not just optional challenges; they're milestones that players need to face to experience the full game. For my friend and me, as casual players, these fights are inevitable if we want to enjoy everything DST has to offer.

Abigail's new survivability makes these fights feel more approachable for us, and it doesn't diminish the challenge for those who prefer to take on bosses in a more traditional or skillful way.

[Catapult 2.0]

I'm a 4.8k hour player and I'm very supportive of your point of view

我是4.8k小时的玩家，我非常支持你的观点

[renamoe]

26 minutes ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

I'm a 4.8k hour player and I'm very supportive of your point of view

我是4.8k小时的玩家，我非常支持你的观点

Thank you! I really appreciate your support.

I've added a few more edits and comments inspired by some of the related discussions here.

[layangan putus]

10 hours ago, Koomin said:

There are way better solutions to this problem than ruining a character for people that engage with and learn the game mechanics by making them massively overpowered.  Klei could just improve the methods through which people learn the basics of the game, like kiting. For example, make it really easy for people to boot up a server and spawn in a deerclops to practice the skill in a low-risk environment.  Giving up completely on people learning your game and making a character that a lot of people have enjoyed for a while just be for casuals is absolutely not the solution, and once this beta is complete Wendy's power level will not realistically be adjusted. 

The "but the poor casuals" arguments seem to largely be something to hide behind for people that want their character to be overpowered at this point.

 

 

 

 

Can't say about overpowered thing because I always accept whichever direction the dev take and I think you are right about better solution. I just hope everyone can progress reasonably equal to enjoy the game.

[Grove]

6 hours ago, Lee lol said:

Cool. You behaved perfectly. I'd like to know how you can use Gestalt against the Crystal Deer, as as far as my tests go, she appears very clumsy and more difficult to control than Shadow Abi, it would be a little better to give her a speed potion, but I would also like to use the other potions as well

I didn't do it perfectly at all lol.

But I'm pretty sure she can do it. Can only play and try on weekends, sadly, so I can't test rn

[NINA1917]

16 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

A 0.75 damage multiplier is in no way an insurmountable barrier to Wendy fighting bosses even when she has to do things on her own. Taking Armored Bearger as an example since everyone seems to love bringing him up: assuming he's using a ham bat at full freshness or a dark sword, Wilson needs 118-135 hits to kill him. Wendy on her own using the same equipment needs 157-180 hits. 40 or so hits is not that much more, especially when the boss is so tanky in the first place, and you likely will be able to use Abigail for some portion of the fight, even just a small one. A side note: I am far from a skilled player in terms of combat (have never beaten either Fuelweaver or Celestial Champion, have never opened rifts) and while I've played Wendy before, it was mostly in DS, where Wendy has steeper penalties from losing Abigail.

And "reduce minor troubles" are you kidding me? Do you realize how good Abigail is at farming spiders and bees compared to every other character out there? Yes, every other character can kill those things and gather the associated resource, but it takes longer, requires more attention, and is more dangerous early game. Same as how Wendy can kill bosses, she just takes longer to do it. This is not a game centered around bosses, it's a survival game, and there's a grand total of one mandatory boss (Deerclops), maybe two if you count Antlion. If you need to take longer to prep for the optional bosses, you can do that.

It's confusing, I didn't say 0.75 is an insurmountable obstacle. What I want to say is that there are still differences among skilled players. It's not just new players who think Wendy 0.75 is weak, some of the old players also think so, but they are enjoying this obstacle - the value of boundary existence is being broken.
I know Abigail is good at dealing with spiders and bees, but even in times without skill trees, it's just a small hassle.
Among the characters with skill trees now, except for poor Wilson, this trouble has become easier to overcome than ever before. This is no longer a unique advantage.
(Most of the time, spiders don't need much to deal with. I can only prevent server lag caused by excessive calculations in the later stage. I will use bosses to clean up the spider nest on a large scale. When raising bees, I need to put away Abigail to collect materials to prevent her from killing the bees. When collecting honey, I only need to pay attention to the spacing between beehives when building the base. Without fighting, I can collect all the honey during the kite flying process. If you want to emphasize Abigail's unique advantage that cannot be replaced, you should say the battle between a single person and the queen bee - if you don't mention Wigford, Willow, Woody)

16 hours ago, Chewabacca said:

requires more attention, and is more dangerous early game.

In the early stages of the game (even when using other characters), my enemies were usually rhinoceroses. I used to acquire powerful equipment from ancient civilizations in the first autumn and find Moon Island to solve logistical problems for food and combat before winter arrived.

 

[mima_]

i want to share my progress story why i never tell new player to play wendy.

i was using wendy alot on my early play though. she is great dealing with stuff that im bad with but playing with her just make me afraid of trying anything. because u know abigail deal with spiders =✓ food . deal with hound wave = surviving ✓. with no abigail everything seems so hard. while it is not, and i realized it with playing with another characters.

i change my play with maxwell (before rework) i learn to kite alot of shadow to gain fuel for my workers. i love him its making easier to farm stuff for base and fighting nightmare creature, also making realized how much armor matter in this game.
i change my play with webber(before rework), learned how to fake attack, also how to deal with pigs/making warepigs. having low sanity bar also make me find use of top hat early on.
i change my play with wigfrid(before reworks), learning kiting with this girl is awesome. we got rewarded by sanity and heals but getting hit was not big of deal cus she tank. learned alot of dodging attack from playing her even tho she is tank. also forced me to learn how to get meat so dealing with koalephant is my first kiting course.

then i play wendy again with abigail died somewhere i forgot her flower, until it disappear back into flower again, cus i forgot to use it. i can deal with everything myself.when i think i cant find use abigail on boss fight i found out that abigail helps u to get that 3rd player share of damage to stun DF down(i was a duo, df never once stunned in our try before using wendy+abigail). also fighting bq was easy breezy with her .
i kinda learned that playing with wendy make you have this mindset if i dont have abigail everything seems harder when its actually not. 
even you said in late game u feel so weak but its totally wrong, with planar set u will only have 5 damage lower than player with normal mult do.

i tried to have abigail at first in beta and even tho she died fast but she deal alot of damage that probably cut the time to fight lower than the what player with normal mult do.
when abigail got so much invulnerability i voiced strong against it, having player doesnt want to engage and stay on sideline to kill things doesnt feels right.
its bring back feeling of new player me who watch spider got smashed by abigail and i feel like cant do nothing when she is not here, while its not, and its just the way of wendy voicing her quotes, vulnerability of losing abigail as a theme of her characters. but truly she is not that weak to begin with atleast to engage to any of this game contents.

so if new friend ask, "what should i play with? "; i wont recommend wendy. it make the game look harder than it really is.
maybe thats why people who only play her think that she is that weak, and people who had play with other characters said she is strong characters. 
 

with player tag, maybe it was kinda overkill to my view, but against invulnerability like in second patch i dont mind at all. its kinda even out the damage she got nerfed i guess.

 

[renamoe]

3 hours ago, mima_ said:

i want to share my progress story why i never tell new player to play wendy.

i was using wendy alot on my early play though. she is great dealing with stuff that im bad with but playing with her just make me afraid of trying anything. because u know abigail deal with spiders =✓ food . deal with hound wave = surviving ✓. with no abigail everything seems so hard. while it is not, and i realized it with playing with another characters.

i change my play with maxwell (before rework) i learn to kite alot of shadow to gain fuel for my workers. i love him its making easier to farm stuff for base and fighting nightmare creature, also making realized how much armor matter in this game.
i change my play with webber(before rework), learned how to fake attack, also how to deal with pigs/making warepigs. having low sanity bar also make me find use of top hat early on.
i change my play with wigfrid(before reworks), learning kiting with this girl is awesome. we got rewarded by sanity and heals but getting hit was not big of deal cus she tank. learned alot of dodging attack from playing her even tho she is tank. also forced me to learn how to get meat so dealing with koalephant is my first kiting course.

then i play wendy again with abigail died somewhere i forgot her flower, until it disappear back into flower again, cus i forgot to use it. i can deal with everything myself.when i think i cant find use abigail on boss fight i found out that abigail helps u to get that 3rd player share of damage to stun DF down(i was a duo, df never once stunned in our try before using wendy+abigail). also fighting bq was easy breezy with her .
i kinda learned that playing with wendy make you have this mindset if i dont have abigail everything seems harder when its actually not. 
even you said in late game u feel so weak but its totally wrong, with planar set u will only have 5 damage lower than player with normal mult do.

i tried to have abigail at first in beta and even tho she died fast but she deal alot of damage that probably cut the time to fight lower than the what player with normal mult do.
when abigail got so much invulnerability i voiced strong against it, having player doesnt want to engage and stay on sideline to kill things doesnt feels right.
its bring back feeling of new player me who watch spider got smashed by abigail and i feel like cant do nothing when she is not here, while its not, and its just the way of wendy voicing her quotes, vulnerability of losing abigail as a theme of her characters. but truly she is not that weak to begin with atleast to engage to any of this game contents.

so if new friend ask, "what should i play with? "; i wont recommend wendy. it make the game look harder than it really is.
maybe thats why people who only play her think that she is that weak, and people who had play with other characters said she is strong characters. 
 

with player tag, maybe it was kinda overkill to my view, but against invulnerability like in second patch i dont mind at all. its kinda even out the damage she got nerfed i guess.

 

Thanks for sharing your progress story! We're currently working on our slot and planning to face the Shadow Pieces and Crab King soon. I think I can tank them with some preparation and a bit of technique. All I really need is armor and a lot of potatoes, haha!

I agree that even casual players can take down bosses; it just takes a bit more preparation and patience. Hearing about your journey gives me more courage to keep trying, so thanks for that!

[MarcoReverie]

Please, can someone explain me what does player tag do? T:)