Move the "player entity" tag to Gestalt Abigail ONLY

[HowlVoid]

1. The whole point of ghastly experience was for a solution of Abigail dying mid fight. Ghastly experience greatly increases all health abi receives by carrying her max health % amount over to her phase 3 form.

2. Combine that with 50% defense against bosses her healing potions have reached an insane height.

3. This makes shadow Abigail more unbalanced as a result combined with its increased damage potential. Why would you use Gestalt abigail over shadow Abigail?

4. After your first clear of the celestial champion Gestalt abigail is easier to obtain than blossoms in each new randomly generated world. It's tied to one of her forms but easier to obtain all together.

5. It lines up with g. Abigails intended one target design as the defense doesn't work on weaker mobs anyways.

6. The whole point of Gestalt abigail was to make bosses easier, has that design focus been lost amongst all the Wendy buffs?

7. This retains wendys downside for people who enjoy a high skill ceiling (shadow abi) and a more forgiving playstyle for people who want that (Gestalt abigail)

Edit: New playstyle revolves around being rewarded for allowing Abigail to straight up die.

Full health 50% armor-> dies-> less max hp gets her to max health within a few seconds with spectre cure all-> ghastly experience instantly quadrupled the healing-> 50% armor

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Deactive41year said:

just give Abagail a 1.5 day cooldown when she drops.

People are not gonna like that... 

A day without Abigail, they'll be super angry plus that's time gating a characters ability. I dont think any other character has that type of downside.

[Nayi]

Agreed, Shadow Abigail's health bonus should be lower than that of Gestalt Abigail.

[Steorra]

39 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

1. The whole point of ghastly experience was for a solution of Abigail dying mid fight. Ghastly experience greatly increases all health abi receives by carrying her max health % amount over to her phase 3 form.

If you think this is imbalance when exist with player tag of Abi, I guess most of us would prefer to remove the ghastly elixir rather than nerf the player tag.

Since spamming elixirs for unexperienced players is far boring and annoying than have player tag for Abi.

[aidankocherhans]

10 minutes ago, Deactive41year said:

actually Wormwood''s bloom is like this, once you run out of full bloomage you have to wait untill it reaches stage 1 bloom to trigger stage 3 again.

so until you get back to stage 1, no bloom autotending for you.

I thought it reversed if you applied fertilizer in stage 2?

[Soul7k]

no and tbh it should be the other way around since shadow abigail face tanks and lunar repositions and already has better survivability, but either way no

[HowlVoid]

4 minutes ago, Deactive41year said:

For the record, i'm going off of:

also form all the times that i've played it hasn't in stage 2.

It does, you can go from stage 3-> to 2 to-> 3 again. 

Its an easy technique to use spoiled fish to restart to bloom 3 when you back to stage 2.

[Evelo]

Yeah, i'd prefer that. Gestalt seems like it is meant for bosses while shadow is just enhanced regular.

Sustain Abigail vs Burst Abigail.

But hey, lune blossom idea was added. Makes me a happy moon flower plant thing.

[Pig Princess]

4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Full health 50% armor-> dies-> less max hp gets her to max health within a few seconds with spectre cure all-> ghastly experience instantly quadrupled the healing-> 50% armor

That is why Ghastly experience never should have been a thing. After all basic sisturn made Abigail go to 600 max hp in 4 minutes, which meant that actual downside of not managing Abigail existed, while at the same time player could easily bring Abigail for the next boss fight. Now it's reduced to summoning animation and 7 seconds of using spectral cure-all + new elixir. 

And double effective hp should never be a thing, previous iteration of overheal was plenty, and no, one doesn't wait until Abigail is ready: one can cook, craft, built and plant, run farm meanwhile, and even do tasks away from base that don't depend on Abigail. She even can continue to farm butterflies for you. 

But I don't even dare to write about nerf, because I don't believe anybody will agree explicitly with that. My voice wouldn't be heared, but rather buried, and maybe the whole thread would be overrun by trolls and locked. 

And yes, some nerfs are indeed needed, but could you tell how to convey the importance of them on forums and not get rage explosion? What kind of format would you yourself accept and not drop the reading after first sentence if someone wrote about topic you are sensitive about? It is genuine question, as I remember in the past exact thing I'm describing happened when I wrote about Wanda and had conversation with you, you even accused me for not being sincere/writing in good faith with "wasn't you the one who said that Wolfgang damage wasn't a problem", which was indeed a thing I wrote about Wolfgang as I was actively against first rework overnerf. 

When I saw where balance goes for past few years, I decided to never write on forums again, even though I cared about the game since 2016 and was on forums since 2020. It did stop to be the place for people who want downsides to be present and play around them instead of chanting endless "if you don't like it, don't use it". But when I saw what is happening with Wendy, and how skill tree went in completely different direction instead of solving real problems, as well as introducing new ones (moon dial thing on public servers and conflict of interests), I decided to write again. And now I'm back square to one, just like people who also don't want power creep, I presume. 

And it doesn't help that update dropped when I'm away from my PC (it's 9.48 am for me, I'm at work) and I can't even write post that is well-edited. 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

There is no need to transfer the label.

[Steorra]

25 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

as I remember in the past exact thing I'm describing happened when I wrote about Wanda and had conversation with you, you even accused me for not being sincere/writing in good faith with "wasn't you the one who said that Wolfgang damage wasn't a problem", which was indeed a thing I wrote about Wolfgang as I was actively against (first rework overnerf). 

Truth but not all - there's always double standard.

Truth maybe? - everyone may has completely different balance view, and many of them may basic on their own interest, which may result in a double standard.

I'm sorry but this part is really, hmm, interesting, for me personally, I mean.

[Pig Princess]

35 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Truth but not all - there's always double standard.

Truth maybe? - everyone may has completely different balance view, and many of them may basic on their own interest, which may result in a double standard.

I'm sorry but this part is really, hmm, interesting, for me personally, I mean.

I can't quite understand you, machine translation seems to be getting in the way. Could you word it differently?

Are you trying to say that right now I'm dishonest and I'm making things up? Or are you trying to say that it's ok for everyone to want different balance of effort-gain ratio? 

In case latter, I agree that desired ratio of effort-gain for different people may be different. What is upsetting is when people don't want to explore things and find out how weak or strong they actually are, and instead they are asking for buffs. They might have the same effort requirement to feel satisfaction that I do, and we could agree if only more people continued to read what initially seems to contradict with their preferences, and if they tested thoroughtly update changes it would also help a lot. But It seems like communication and knowledge barries are in the way more than differences between tastes are. 

I quoted specific user because in the past I saw different attitute, and now they ask for nerf. I don't want to start drama or accuse specific person. I want an insight to the reason why opinion of specific person towards nerfs changed, as well as their perspecive on how someone could write a post that would not repel them if they disagree. I hope to use this knowledge to improve my writing style. 

[Steorra]

21 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I can't quite understand you, machine translation seems to be getting in the way. Could you word it differently?

Are you trying to say that right now I'm dishonest and I'm making things up? Or are you trying to say that it's ok for everyone to want different balance of effort-gain ratio? 

In case latter, I agree that desired ratio of effort-gain for different people may be different. What is upsetting is when people don't want to explore things and find out how weak or strong they actually are, and instead they are asking for buffs. They might have the same effort requirement to feel satisfaction that I do, and we could agree if only more people continued to read what initially seems to contradict with their preferences, and if they tested thoroughtly update changes it would also help a lot. But It seems like communication and knowledge barries are in the way more than differences between tastes are. 

I quoted specific user because in the past I saw different attitute, and now they ask for nerf. I don't want to start drama or accuse specific person. I want an insight to the reason why opinion of specific person towards nerfs changed, as well as their perspecive on how someone could write a post that would not repel them if they disagree. I hope to use this knowledge to improve my writing style. 

Sorry for leading a misunderstanding.

That response is more like a curiousity with some assumptions about why people would have different standards when facing a similar problem. Or more like a sarcasm for questioning that "why same person would have different attitude to some similar problem"

And I guess this would be similar to what you quoted "I want an insight to the reason why opinion of specific person towards nerfs changed."

[Lee lol]

20 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

我不太明白你，机器翻译似乎在妨碍你。你能换个措辞吗？

你是想说我现在不诚实，我在编造事情吗？或者你想说每个人都想要不同的努力-增益比平衡是可以的？

在后者的情况下，我同意不同人的期望努力收益比率可能不同。令人沮丧的是，当人们不想探索事物并了解他们实际上有多弱或强时，他们反而要求增益。他们可能和我一样努力感到满意，如果有更多的人继续阅读最初似乎与他们偏好相矛盾的内容，我们可以同意，如果他们彻底测试更新更改，那也会有很大帮助。但似乎沟通和知识障碍比品味之间的差异更重要。

我引用了特定的用户，因为过去我看到了不同的态度，现在他们要求 nerf。我不想开始闹剧或指责特定的人。我想深入了解特定人对 nerfs 的看法发生变化的原因，以及他们对某人如何写一篇不会在他们不同意时排斥他们的帖子的看法。我希望利用这些知识来改进我的写作风格。

Maybe because not everyone has access to the beta——some are controller players, and some don't have time to make a test in beta.

And even they did make a test in beta, their opinions still vary, because the data and method to win a game is objective, but how people feel about it is subjective, according to their game level and game style

[SilverSpoon]

For your information, Gestabby's damage has also been buffed in this update.

Buffed Gestabby this update does 100 damage during the day, 150 damage at dusk, and 250 damage at night.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

3 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

That is why Ghastly experience never should have been a thing. After all basic sisturn made Abigail go to 600 max hp in 4 minutes, which meant that actual downside of not managing Abigail existed, while at the same time player could easily bring Abigail for the next boss fight. Now it's reduced to summoning animation and 7 seconds of using spectral cure-all + new elixir. 

And double effective hp should never be a thing, previous iteration of overheal was plenty, and no, one doesn't wait until Abigail is ready: one can cook, craft, built and plant, run farm meanwhile, and even do tasks away from base that don't depend on Abigail. She even can continue to farm butterflies for you. 

But I don't even dare to write about nerf, because I don't believe anybody will agree explicitly with that. My voice wouldn't be heared, but rather buried, and maybe the whole thread would be overrun by trolls and locked. 

And yes, some nerfs are indeed needed, but could you tell how to convey the importance of them on forums and not get rage explosion? What kind of format would you yourself accept and not drop the reading after first sentence if someone wrote about topic you are sensitive about? It is genuine question, as I remember in the past exact thing I'm describing happened when I wrote about Wanda and had conversation with you, you even accused me for not being sincere/writing in good faith with "wasn't you the one who said that Wolfgang damage wasn't a problem", which was indeed a thing I wrote about Wolfgang as I was actively against first rework overnerf. 

When I saw where balance goes for past few years, I decided to never write on forums again, even though I cared about the game since 2016 and was on forums since 2020. It did stop to be the place for people who want downsides to be present and play around them instead of chanting endless "if you don't like it, don't use it". But when I saw what is happening with Wendy, and how skill tree went in completely different direction instead of solving real problems, as well as introducing new ones (moon dial thing on public servers and conflict of interests), I decided to write again. And now I'm back square to one, just like people who also don't want power creep, I presume. 

And it doesn't help that update dropped when I'm away from my PC (it's 9.48 am for me, I'm at work) and I can't even write post that is well-edited. 

I completely agree with you. This potion was a mistake and should be removed. I really didn't like that this was how the Floral Shroud was treated, since I think an attempt to rebalance it would have been preferred, but this elixir is absolutely an exception to my apprehension toward completely cutting content. This cannot be fixed, and a major price increase will just make people unhappy. This shouldn't be in the game.

[Pig Princess]

48 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I really didn't like that this was how the Floral Shroud was treated, since I think an attempt to rebalance it would have been preferred

This is offtopic, but I suppose it's fine to reply once. 

Floral shroud could just transfer all Wendy's gained health to Abigail, just like it did, but not transfer lost hp. At the same time, all damage Abigail takes could be transferred to Wendy instead, while any hp Abigail gains (through elixirs, for example) would not be transferred. 

That would make this item secondary healing way to Abigail, and sort of act like shield to Abigail provided player is willing to trade armor durability in order to protect Abigail, up to 3x damage instead of usual 1x. And it wouldn't make Wendy glass cannon. Sure, it would not be an item for newbies, but for someone willing to make better use of bat bat, shadow maul and actually utilise usual healing (outside of very few fights like BQ, FW and maybe CC) while keeping current elixir on Abigail, it would be nice diversity. 

I didn't post this idea though because it still feels raw and unpolished to me. However, now I see what kind of ideas are implemented and I think that maybe it wouldn't be so bad if it was implemented instead of this effective 2x hp against enemies who shouldn't hit Abigail in the first place provided Wendy manages Abigail. Remember, there are team spirit skills now and people still think it's not enough. Arguement could be provided to make them with skippable animation or cooldown between them not be shared, but current situation is just way worse, it's too much. 

I wonder if videos where I would record boss fights with new tools Wendy has would help. After all one could always say "but you've practiced for an hour, unfair waste of player's time!". And while some things are indeed skill-intensive, like dodging bone cage of Fuelweaver, using escape command to escape shadow bishop attack are not, and it actually allows Wendy have alternative strategy for shadow pieces that is practical enough to use. 

Edit: just wanted to add that it's the same for players like Lardee and Guille showcasing some strategy. It's easy to just say "but they are top-tier players/gifted speedrunner" and discard everything they might say about the game. It seems like practically nobody realises that no one is born as gifted speedrunner or cleanest figher ever, practice and desire to improve, as well as passion for the activity one does, contributes to success so much more than natural advantages like quick reaction.

[Grove]

47 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

That is why Ghastly experience never should have been a thing. After all basic sisturn made Abigail go to 600 max hp in 4 minutes, which meant that actual downside of not managing Abigail existed, while at the same time player could easily bring Abigail for the next boss fight. Now it's reduced to summoning animation and 7 seconds of using spectral cure-all + new elixir. 

47 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I completely agree with you. This potion was a mistake and should be removed. I really didn't like that this was how the Floral Shroud was treated, since I think an attempt to rebalance it would have been preferred, but this elixir is absolutely an exception to my apprehension toward completely cutting content. This cannot be fixed, and a major price increase will just make people unhappy. This shouldn't be in the game.

I also agree. I kinda expressed my dislike of the elixir on the update that introduced but didn't care much. After testing it in game, it's very annoying to be needing a skill point only to see it being wasted on an elixir I'll never use. At the very least, they could make it the last of the branch

[OMEGASCRUFF]

41 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

This is offtopic, but I suppose it's fine to reply once. 

Floral shroud could just transfer all Wendy's gained health to Abigail, just like it did, but not transfer lost hp. At the same time, all damage Abigail takes could be transferred to Wendy instead, while any hp Abigail gains (through elixirs, for example) would not be transferred. 

That would make this item secondary healing way to Abigail, and sort of act like shield to Abigail provided player is willing to trade armor durability in order to protect Abigail, up to 3x damage instead of usual 1x. And it wouldn't make Wendy glass cannon. Sure, it would not be an item for newbies, but for someone willing to make better use of bat bat, shadow maul and actually utilise usual healing while keeping current elixir on Abigail, it would be nice diversity. 

I didn't post this idea though because it still feels raw and unpolished to me. However, now I see what kind of ideas are implemented and I think that maybe it wouldn't be so bad if it was implemented instead of this effective 2x hp against enemies who shouldn't hit Abigail in the first place provided Wendy manages Abigail. Remember, there are team spirit skills now and people still think it's not enough. Arguement could be provided to make them with skippable animation or cooldown between them not be shared, but current situation is just way worse, it's too much. 

I wonder if videos where I would record boss fights with new tools Wendy has would help. After all one could always say "but you've practiced for an hour, unfair waste of player's time!". And while some things are indeed skill-intensive, like dodging bone cage of Fuelweaver, using escape command to escape shadow bishop attack are not, and it actually allows Wendy have alternative strategy for shadow pieces that is practical enough to use. 

Yup. Honestly, there's a ton of different routes this could have gone. Ultimately, I think the premise of the shroud just offered a lot more avenues for nuance to help address Abigail's bulk issues. I am a little disappointed that we're at the point we are now the more I think about this. At least the shroud required an armor sacrifice and a bit of setup, and could have been improved by simply requiring more management to both characters or more pros and cons to each. The problem was just that she could facetank infinitely on the base release. This could have been adjusted instead, because I actually really liked the idea of an armor that connects Wendy and Abigail's stats. It just needed to be finely polished, as a meta develops around it, ideally with an engaging way to combine Teamwork skills besides it.

I would argue this conversation is absolutely on topic, though, because it's really important to consider the alternative options we could have chosen as opposed to simply removing the player tag. That tag had value in keeping Abigail proportionally more independent against non-boss mobs in specific. It's just that she's always been a bit finicky to control and a bit overly punished by boss damage when her movement is determined by her AI.

At the end of the day, I'm not a Wendy player, though I have a ridiculously larger mount of time playing with them compared to any other character, and I've helped to teach a couple of them the game's fundamentals from scratch and had to learn her a bit myself in the process (and I've followed her meta for years, too.) But ultimately I still don't entirely think I'm qualified to say what exactly would have been the best end result for her out of this beta, without the first-hand experience to back it up. She's not really my play style or aesthetic, but I would have been super grateful for the beta to have inspired me to pick her up as it's done for me with Walter, who released in an even less complete state that gave me the same concerns. I regret to say beta Wendy failed to do this, which is part of the reason why I have tried to avoid the Wendy topics in general. I do think, for any character you're featuring in an update, it is worth listening both to the players who actively play her and the players who want to play her but need an extra push. Their goals usually line up pretty well in the end.

But I just had to chime in about the Ghastly Experience when supported by another poster who visibly spent a lot of time considering the scenario, and the other options that could have happened to accomplish the same 50% effective boss resistance, but in a skill-rewarding, fun, or innovative way. The potion 100% should not exist, and the Wendy co-main I play with who does not represent herself on the forums had an incredibly negative response to it that I don't think has been expressed clearly enough times. I think "toxic" is the word she used to describe how it felt to use it. I'll mostly continue to keep my Wendy thoughts to myself, for the most part, though.

[Grove]

4 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

And it doesn't help that update dropped when I'm away from my PC (it's 9.48 am for me, I'm at work) and I can't even write post that is well-edited. 

Ya ain't the only one 

Personally, I think that the whole lunar blossom thing should be moved to Lunar Sisterhood one. That way the player tag could be kept on Gestalt Abby only. Maybe even with a new effect?

And Shadow Sisterhood one could have some effect that increases damage.

Currently the first of each alignment is just 15 planar defense. Which doesn't allign with the shadow line's damage focus, and is kinda boring

And I suggest the Sisturn three could use mourning glory instead with some new effect, that alligns both with Shadow line's damage focus, and Lunar's survivability focus

[Pig Princess]

30 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Ya ain't the only one 

Personally, I think that the whole lunar blossom thing should be moved to Lunar Sisterhood one. That way the player tag could be kept on Gestalt Abby only. Maybe even with a new effect?

And Shadow Sisterhood one could have some effect that increases damage.

Currently the first of each alignment is just 15 planar defense. Which doesn't allign with the shadow line's damage focus, and is kinda boring

And I suggest the Sisturn three could use mourning glory instead with some new effect, that alligns both with Shadow line's damage focus, and Lunar's survivability focus

Did you just edit post after I reacted to it? Weird that it doesn't say a thing about edit but I remember it wasn't this big just a bit ago. 

Anyway, I think it would be better to keep ability to use lunar tree blossom like regular flowers, but make them have additional effect specifically for gestalt Abigail, if keep this player tag at all. As for generic effect, sisturn could just spawn up to 4-8 lunar tree blossoms while loaded with tree blossoms, that way it would be nice QoL compared to petals (no need to go out of one's way to pick petals, even if it's not hard or time-consuming; and passive income of tree blossoms for niche crafts would be more than enough for me). And I would rather have overheal from previous patch as a way to increase Abigail's health in general, I think it would be plenty even for gestalt Abigail. 

[Grove]

1 minute ago, Pig Princess said:

Did you just edit post after I reacted to it? Weird that it doesn't say a thing about edit but I remember it wasn't this big just a bit ago. 

Klei merges posts. I wrote a post quoting you. Then write a post about this thread. Despite them not being about the same thing. They were merged, so it looks like I was talking to you specifically when discussing the sisturn thing. But I was just talking in general

[Steorra]

40 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Ya ain't the only one 

Personally, I think that the whole lunar blossom thing should be moved to Lunar Sisterhood one. That way the player tag could be kept on Gestalt Abby only. Maybe even with a new effect?

And Shadow Sisterhood one could have some effect that increases damage.

Currently the first of each alignment is just 15 planar defense. Which doesn't allign with the shadow line's damage focus, and is kinda boring

And I suggest the Sisturn three could use mourning glory instead with some new effect, that alligns both with Shadow line's damage focus, and Lunar's survivability focus

Guess have to say that there are some people like me who prefer to use regular Abi rather than lunar or shadow one, I hope the player tag work for regular Abi as well. And I hope regular Abi could still be an option from the skill tree design.

Regular Abi now could use both affinities elixirs, I hope other buff could also apply to her and to choose one affinity would never be needed for regular Abi.

[Grove]

21 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Guess have to say that there are some people like me who prefer to use regular Abi rather than lunar or shadow one, I hope the player tag work for regular Abi as well. And I hope regular Abi could still be an option from the skill tree design.

Regular Abi now could use both affinities elixirs, I hope other buff could also apply to her and to choose one affinity would never be needed for regular Abi.

Shadow Abby is regular Abby, just with an attack buff

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Shadow Abby is regular Abby, just with an attack buff

Nope, it is not regular one for both DS or DST. You know what I mean I guess