Discussion on Abigail's Need for Planar Entity Resistance and Analysis of Her Survivability（English & Chinese）

[Zef Wang]

Klei not giving Abigail planar entity resistance for three consecutive updates is not just an oversight.
Personally, I believe Klei's decision not to give Abigail planar entity resistance might be to prevent her from becoming too overpowered, but such a concern is unnecessary.
For the damage reduction formula of planar entity resistance, there are only two nemeses to planar entity resistance: high-frequency attacks and planar damage. Klei might think that Abigail's invulnerability upon being hit would render high-frequency attacks ineffective, which is indeed correct, but not entirely so.
Bosses with high-frequency damage are rare; currently, only the second phase of the Celestial Champion, Klaus, Possessed Varg, and the Shadow Bishop do so (if there are others, please feel free to point them out).
Now let's intuitively demonstrate Abigail's survivability. The test uses the third-stage Shadow Bishop and the enraged Klaus, with Bernie who has planar entity resistance as a reference.
For the sake of simplicity in calculation, we assume Abigail has the effect of the Unyielding Draught.
The third-stage Shadow Bishop deals 60 damage per attack, a total of nine times, and Abigail takes damage three times, losing a total of 180 health points.
Bernie took a total of 339.68 damage, equivalent to 101 Abigail's health points.
If Abigail had planar entity resistance, she would have taken 113 points of damage.
For the enraged Klaus:
Abigail took damage once, losing 200 health points.
Bernie took 171.14 damage, equivalent to 51 Abigail's health points.
If Abigail had planar entity resistance, she would have taken 85.57 points of damage.
You see, even with planar entity resistance and the effect of the Unyielding Draught, Abigail's survivability is far less than Bernie's.

科雷连续三次更新不给阿比盖尔位面实体抵抗，应该不是仅仅忘记这么简单。
个人认为，科雷不给阿比盖尔位面实体抵抗，可能是防止阿比盖尔生存能力过强，但这种担忧是不必要的。
对于位面实体抵抗的减伤公式而言，位面实体抵抗只有两种克星：高频攻击和位面伤害，科雷可能认为阿比盖尔的受击无敌机制会使高频攻击失效，这的确是对的，但不完全对。
具有高频伤害的boss很少，目前只有天体英雄二阶段，克劳斯，月狗以及暗影主教会如此（如果有其他的，欢迎指出）。
现在我们直观地体现一下阿比盖尔的生存能力，测试使用的是三阶暗影主教和狂暴克劳斯，并与具有位面实体抵抗的伯尼作为参照。
为了计算简便，我们假定阿比拥有不屈药剂的效果。
三阶暗影主教一次攻击伤害60，总共九次，阿比受到三次伤害，总共损失血量180。
伯尼总共受到339.68伤害，等效阿比血量101。
如果阿比具有位面实体抵抗，则会受到113点伤害。
对于狂暴克劳斯：
阿比受到伤害一次，损失血量200点。
伯尼受到伤害171.14，等效阿比血量51.
如果阿比有位面实体抵抗，则会受到85.57点伤害。
你看，即使对于有位面实体抵抗和不屈药剂效果的阿比盖尔，其生存能力也远远小于伯尼。

[1007954611]

agree

[Yifei_]

On one hand, it is necessary to enhance Abigail's survivability in terms of health and defense. On the other hand, Abigail's flexibility also needs to be improved to make it easier for Wendy to manipulate Abigail to avoid damage. For example, having Abigail closely follow Wendy when facing an AOE boss. There is still room for improvement in the current Team Spirits series of skills.

[Wendigail]

I have seen many people say that strengthening Abigail's survival ability will turn her into an OP tank, which can stand still and let Abigail kill all monsters. I think in that case, Abigail's survival should be linked to player's dodge skill, so that Abigail is close to Wendy and can immediately move at the same time as the player to avoid attacks.

[Arcwell]

Visual example of regular Abby vs. planar Abby (no skills no potions) against T3 Shadow Bishop for the sake of comparison:

Regular Abby:

Abby with planar entity:

For what it's worth I see nothing wrong with giving Abby planar entity (but I also have absolutely no stake in Wendy whatsoever, just hope everyone's happy with the end product).

[Lardee]

Please do not give her Planar Entity protection.

75% of Wendy's skills already increase her survivability:

1. She can literally double her HP

2. Has a potion that eliminates the downside of getting Abigail killed.

3. Grave relocation, faster fetch quests yielding more mourning glory and a chance to craft 2 potions mean Spectral Cure Alls are way cheaper

4. New Abigail controls let you avoid enemy attacks

5. Gestalt Abigail's design intent is to trade AoE for survivability.

 

Planar Entity Protection would give Abigail over 2,400 effective HP against bosses as well as double Spectral Cure All's effectiveness.

Wendy's greatest downside has always been keeping Abigail alive against bosses. Skill trees shouldn't be removing character downsides, they should be giving you tools that (given you know how to use them) allow you to work around those downsides.

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

Skill trees shouldn't be removing character downsides

Ironically, Woodie's Lunar skills removed the drawback of his full moon transformation, Wortox's Libra skills removed the disadvantage of being perceived as a hostile creature, and Willow's skills removed her propensity to accidentally burn down her base. There are many more examples like these. I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion from.
 

[Lardee]

4 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Ironically, Woodie's Lunar skills removed the drawback of his full moon transformation, Wortox's Libra skills removed the disadvantage of being perceived as a hostile creature, and Willow's skills removed her propensity to accidentally burn down her base. There are many more examples like these. I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion from.
 

Woodie's Lunar Skill was a necessary evil due to the fact that Klei introduced moonstorms.

Wortox's Libra skills shouldn't remove his disadvantage. That made his character less interesting.

Accidentally burning down base hasn't been a downside for Willow since her rework back in 2019 if not earlier.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Ironically, Woodie's Lunar skills removed the drawback of his full moon transformation, Wortox's Libra skills removed the disadvantage of being perceived as a hostile creature, and Willow's skills removed her propensity to accidentally burn down her base. There are many more examples like these. I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion from.
 

Woodie's was needed due to moonstorms and Wickerbottom.

Wortox gains additional downsides for investing too far into one side.

Are you serious about Willow's though? Her old downside was hehe I accidentally burned the base down guys because I was low on sanity there's a obvious reason that changed and she got multiple downsides in it's place less protection from clothing, freezing faster from ice based attacks, and taking more damage from freezing.

[Yifei_]

9 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Woodie's Lunar Skill was a necessary evil due to the fact that Klei introduced moonstorms.

Following your logic, it is still necessary to add Planar Entity Defense for Abigail, as Klei has introduced the Planar Damage system and more powerful bosses in the updates.

Wortox's Libra skills are, in my opinion, very exciting and interesting, both in terms of story background and actual gameplay.

What I mean is that Willow, who was previously disliked by many, can now even take on the role of a firefighter. Of course, the example of Willow starting fires might not be the most appropriate. This is more of a design issue rather than a drawback.

[Lee lol]

I think Shadow Abi's dps is too strong before the rift, and a little weaker after the rift. Why not nerf her pre-rift damage and increase her plane defense or plane damage? For Gestalt, I think her physical damage or survivability should be enhanced.

[Lardee]

5 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Following your logic, it is still necessary to add Planar Entity Defense for Abigail, as Klei has introduced the Planar Damage system and more powerful bosses in the updates.

Wortox's Libra skills are, in my opinion, very exciting and interesting, both in terms of story background and actual gameplay.

What I mean is that Willow, who was previously disliked by many, can now even take on the role of a firefighter. Of course, the example of Willow starting fires might not be the most appropriate.
 

This does not follow since planar damage doesn't affect Abigail any more than regular damage and she already had options that allow her to survive against bosses. Woodie had no other option but to just force transform every single day.

You find it exciting that Wortox is neutral to bunnymen and pigs?

 

[Yifei_]

13 minutes ago, Lardee said:

You find it exciting that Wortox is neutral to bunnymen and pigs?

I may need to emphasize once again, I like him because of the story background and actual gameplay. You might need to read my comments more carefully.
 

32 minutes ago, Lardee said:

1. She can literally double her HP

2. Has a potion that eliminates the downside of getting Abigail killed.

3. Grave relocation, faster fetch quests yielding more mourning glory and a chance to craft 2 potions mean Spectral Cure Alls are way cheaper

4. New Abigail controls let you avoid enemy attacks

5. Gestalt Abigail's design intent is to trade AoE for survivability.

1. Spending 5 minutes and four skill points to gain a 20-second survival window in the fight against Deerclop is, in my opinion, very much not worth it.

2. The potion you mentioned requires Forget me lots, a resource that is not easy to obtain or mass-produce. I don't think the practicality of this skill is very high.

3. In some boss battles, potions alone are not sufficient. Take the Armored Bearger for example. Moreover, potions can be used before reaching the skill tree, so this skill merely simplifies the collection process and does not bring a significant improvement to survival capabilities.

4. I think the Team Spirit series of skills is well-designed, and I agree with your perspective. Enhancing Abigail's survival capabilities by increasing operational complexity is great.

5. You can try using Gestalt Abigail to fight CC, and I don't believe her survival capabilities have improved at all (this is just an example). Furthermore, the transformation of Gestalt Abigail is quite cumbersome, further limiting the practicality of this skill.

 

If Klei could address the pain points of the issues I mentioned, then Planar Entity Defense would indeed be redundant. However, regrettably, there are just too many problems with these skills at the moment.

[Steorra]

38 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Please do not give her Planar Entity protection.

75% of Wendy's skills already increase her survivability:

1. She can literally double her HP

2. Has a potion that eliminates the downside of getting Abigail killed.

3. Grave relocation, faster fetch quests yielding more mourning glory and a chance to craft 2 potions mean Spectral Cure Alls are way cheaper

4. New Abigail controls let you avoid enemy attacks

5. Gestalt Abigail's design intent is to trade AoE for survivability.

 

Planar Entity Protection would give Abigail over 2,400 effective HP against bosses as well as double Spectral Cure All's effectiveness.

Wendy's greatest downside has always been keeping Abigail alive against bosses. Skill trees shouldn't be removing character downsides, they should be giving you tools that (given you know how to use them) allow you to work around those downsides.

Woodie: Downside? What downside? 

[Wendigail]

36 minutes ago, Lardee said:

You find it exciting that Wortox is neutral to bunnymen and pigs?

That's interisting in lore, because player's skill point can determine Wortox whether good or evil, balance his personality.

[Lee Sy]

7 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

1. Spending 5 minutes and four skill points to gain a 20-second survival window in the fight against Deerclop is, in my opinion, very much not worth it.

20s足够土豆人把巨鹿打死多少次了

[PunkShark]

8 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Ironically, Woodie's Lunar skills removed the drawback of his full moon transformation, Wortox's Libra skills removed the disadvantage of being perceived as a hostile creature, and Willow's skills removed her propensity to accidentally burn down her base. There are many more examples like these. I'm not sure where you're drawing this conclusion from.
 

Woodie's downside was detrimental to his existence via moonstorms. There were a lot of concerns and it wasn't as much of a downside and more of a "i'm gonna change character cause this is excessively awful" side. This was before his skill tree so all forms were not good for the occasion of moonstorms and you would starve every single time every day including losing sanity. If a downside is so bad that it doesn't even want to make you play the character, that is not a downside.
PLUS: The downside is part of his alignment choice. So it is a choice, it isn't given to you for free and you have to beat CC to get it.

Wortox's loses his monster tag in compensation for having souls be more insanity inducing by eating them (one of his main food sources).

Idk what you mean by Willow. She could never burn down bases in DST, if you mean random fires under her feet that is. Which was ever implemented into DST.
Unless you mean the "downside" is that she would grief bases which idk how that's even considered into this arguement here.

[Zef Wang]

I personally believe that for characters whose main gameplay revolves around summoning, reducing the loss of their summoned creatures should be a means of strengthening them. Take Wurt, for example; almost all of her main skill points are invested in the survivability of her merm army. Fortunately, we already have an example of a single-summon character with a skill tree to refer to: Willow. Without discussing survivability, let's talk about the remedial measures needed after the summon's death.

If Willow carries an extra Bernie, she can simply throw it on the ground for a seamless transition. At the same time, a deceased Bernie can be repaired with tape or a sewing kit, with almost no loss.

However, if Abigail dies and wants to quickly return to full health, she needs to use a Spectral Cure-All to reach 150 health points and then use an upgrade potion, leaving an 8-9 second gap. One Telltale heart is lost in the process.

In terms of remedial measures alone, to maintain balance, Abigail's survivability should be 120% to 180% of Bernie's with the same number of skill points invested (I know what you all are thinking, Wendy's skills outside of the Shadow route don't contribute much to damage enhancement, and overall, she is still weaker than Willow, with nothing to be worried about).

个人认为，对于以召唤为主要玩法的角色，应当尽量减少其召唤物的损失作为加强手段。如沃特，几乎绝大部分的主要技能都在鱼人的生存能力上下功夫。幸运的是，对于单体召唤我们已经有一个拥有技能树的例子作为参考：薇洛。先不谈生存能力，单说召唤物阵亡后需要的补救措施。

薇洛如果携带另一个伯尼，可以直接将其扔在地上无缝衔接。同时，死亡的伯尼可以使用胶带或者针线包修好，损失几乎没有。

而阿比盖尔死亡后如果想要迅速恢复满状态，需要灵魂万灵药升到150点生命值后使用升级药，中间有8~9秒的真空期。损失一个告密之心。

仅从补救措施而言，为了保持平衡，阿比盖尔的生存能力应当是点了相同技能点数的伯尼的120%到180% （我知道各位想说什么，温蒂除暗影路线技能外其余的技能对伤害提升作用并不大，总体还是弱于薇洛的，不用担心。）

[SilverSpoon]

12 hours ago, Lardee said:

1. She can literally double her HP

2. Has a potion that eliminates the downside of getting Abigail killed.

3. Grave relocation, faster fetch quests yielding more mourning glory and a chance to craft 2 potions mean Spectral Cure Alls are way cheaper

4. New Abigail controls let you avoid enemy attacks

5. Gestalt Abigail's design intent is to trade AoE for survivability.

1.It's punishing to wait 5 minutes every time Abigail dies just for that. It's like taking 5 minutes to restore max HP with Booster Shot.

2."Forget me lots" is one of hard items to get in this game. So "Soothing Tea" or "Beefalo Treats" are some of the most underused items in the game.

3."cheaper=not free" Mass production of Spectral Cure Alls still needs many work, and Spectral Cure Alls take time to recover, so it's not the answer to Abigail being too vulnerable. In the first place, "more resources" is not an appropriate answer to balance. If isn't so, we can blow up all bosses with 10,000 gunpowder Abigail or not...

4.It's true that this improves Abigail's survivability, but being able to take evasive action is not the optimal solution to "too vulnerable". Not every game needs to be Dark Souls.

5.It is our opinion that the current "survivability" is insufficient.

[RiceMilk]

Damage resistance is good, but I'm worried that some people may think it's too strong/it will make Abigail a tank.

Perhaps combining with side effects can solve this problem, such as defense only appearing when Wendy has low san? Or cannot attract hatred in a high defense state?

 

 

[Zef Wang]

25 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

Damage resistance is good, but I'm worried that some people may think it's too strong/it will make Abigail a tank.

Don't worry, Wendy's main combat scenarios are still against a large number of small monsters like spiders, only occasionally facing bosses. Planar entity resistance has a lower damage reduction effect against small monsters, which greatly increases the survival probability when facing bosses, while being less noticeable in normal times. Compared to some demands for direct damage reduction, it is better in terms of balance. Moreover, Abigail only has 600 health. Regarding tanking, she is at least weaker than Bernie, isn't ?

[Debruh]

13 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

3. In some boss battles, potions alone are not sufficient. Take the Armored Bearger for example. Moreover, potions can be used before reaching the skill tree, so this skill merely simplifies the collection process and does not bring a significant improvement to survival capabilities.

Thr two beargers, and possibly frostjaw are the only fights Abby can't survive. Even then, you can summon her when armored bearger is knocked down which shortens the fight, and planar damage already combats Wendy's downside of 75% damage

[RiceMilk]

3 minutes ago, Zef Wang said:

Don't worry, Wendy's main combat scenarios are still against a large number of small monsters like spiders, only occasionally facing bosses. Planar entity resistance has a lower damage reduction effect against small monsters, which greatly increases the survival probability when facing bosses, while being less noticeable in normal times. Compared to some demands for direct damage reduction, it is better in terms of balance. Moreover, Abigail only has 600 health. Regarding tanking, she is at least weaker than Bernie, isn't ?

To be honest, due to Abigail's lack of permanent damage reduction and only 600 health points, I can no longer summon Abigail to fight in high difficulty battles. Feeding her is really troublesome.

So if we only provide planar entity resistance, I feel that it doesn't make much difference to my experience.

[Debruh]

15 hours ago, Arcwell said:

For what it's worth I see nothing wrong with giving Abby planar entity

This isn't counting any of her elixirs, or the fact that Wendy can just resummon her again after applying two elixirs

[RiceMilk]

5 minutes ago, Debruh said:

This isn't counting any of her elixirs, or the fact that Wendy can just resummon her again after applying two elixirs

You cannot come to a conclusion on this issue because the biggest disagreement is that some players think Wendy is strong, while others think Wendy is weak.

So the best solution is to change Abigail's features in the new state, removing those considered powerful features, in order to obtain truly useful things.