Discussion on Abigail's Need for Planar Entity Resistance and Analysis of Her Survivability（English & Chinese）

[hyoton123]

2 hours ago, Zef Wang said:

In terms of remedial measures alone, to maintain balance, Abigail's survivability should be 120% to 180% of Bernie's with the same number of skill points invested (I know what you all are thinking, Wendy's skills outside of the Shadow route don't contribute much to damage enhancement, and overall, she is still weaker than Willow, with nothing to be worried about).

That is one of the craziest conclusions I have heard of. That is *insanely* high considering abigail’s much more general availability and utility. Do you just not position/kite/unsummon in bosses?

1 hour ago, Debruh said:

Thr two beargers, and possibly frostjaw are the only fights Abby can't survive. Even then, you can summon her when armored bearger is knocked down which shortens the fight, and planar damage already combats Wendy's downside of 75% damage

Maybe scrappy werepig I guess since it has some short vuln phases? Although lol balancing around that…

 

But yeah, agreed. No acknowledgement of planar gear, nothing about actual gameplay beyond vaguely saying abigail takes too much damage.

15 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

 Willow's skills removed her propensity to accidentally burn down her base.
 

Oh, I am really curious about why you brought this up. Were you reading an old wiki?

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, hyoton123 said:

Maybe scrappy werepig I guess since it has some short vuln phases? Although lol balancing around that…

 

But yeah, agreed. No acknowledgement of planar gear, nothing about actual gameplay beyond vaguely saying abigail takes too much damage.

Lardee has a video about it, it's hard to do but it's possible to do him with Abby. Here. It's pre-rift scrappy, but post rift, you can just use howlitzer (and easily get its ammo with Abby). Also, if he spawns, then you did Nightmare werepig (can be done with Abby). So, you can just do fuelweaver (can be done with Abby, not only that but she also changes the fight drastically), and get the gloomerang early, since you don't have to wait for spring like most other characters. So even it Abby is out of the question, she can still help cheese the boss indirectly. (Mass farm hound teeth easier, or be Wendy's personal Weather pain for fuelweaver). There's also Gabby.

I always forget scrappy exists 

[Yifei_]

7 hours ago, Debruh said:

Thr two beargers, and possibly frostjaw are the only fights Abby can't survive. Even then, you can summon her when armored bearger is knocked down which shortens the fight, and planar damage already combats Wendy's downside of 75% damage

two werepigs. two deerclops. celesital champion. two toadstool. klaus. shadow rook (III). I sincerely suggest to actually use wendy fight some bosses in real game.
the summon and unsummon cost time.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

two werepigs. two deerclops. celesital champion. two toadstool. klaus. shadow rook (III). I sincerely suggest to actually use wendy fight some bosses in real game.
the summon and unsummon cost time.

Then the solution is to buff team spirit to make it a better in combat evasion tool than unsummon,  not to give Abby boss tier bulk...

 

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

Then the solution is to buff team spirit to make it a better in combat evasion tool than unsummon,  not to give Abby boss tier bulk...

yeah, I agree and I believe I didn't mention "tire bulk" in my last post.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

yeah, I agree and I believe I didn't mention "tire bulk" in my last post.

Oh sorry, i thought you were the oop of this post. My bad.

[Lardee]

On 12/9/2024 at 4:31 PM, Yifei_ said:

I may need to emphasize once again, I like him because of the story background and actual gameplay. You might need to read my comments more carefully.

Yeah, so do you find Wortox gameplay where pigs, bunnies and catcoons are neutral exciting?

Quote

1. Spending 5 minutes and four skill points to gain a 20-second survival window in the fight against Deerclop is, in my opinion, very much not worth it.

2. The potion you mentioned requires Forget me lots, a resource that is not easy to obtain or mass-produce. I don't think the practicality of this skill is very high.

3. In some boss battles, potions alone are not sufficient. Take the Armored Bearger for example. Moreover, potions can be used before reaching the skill tree, so this skill merely simplifies the collection process and does not bring a significant improvement to survival capabilities.

4. I think the Team Spirit series of skills is well-designed, and I agree with your perspective. Enhancing Abigail's survival capabilities by increasing operational complexity is great.

5. You can try using Gestalt Abigail to fight CC, and I don't believe her survival capabilities have improved at all (this is just an example). Furthermore, the transformation of Gestalt Abigail is quite cumbersome, further limiting the practicality of this skill.

If Klei could address the pain points of the issues I mentioned, then Planar Entity Defense would indeed be redundant. However, regrettably, there are just too many problems with these skills at the moment.

1. Pre-skill tree Wendy beats Deerclops with a hambat in like 25 seconds, an additional 20s of Abigail is huge. Plus, that's one boss. 90% of the time, Abigail isn't going to be tanking boss attacks unless you don't know what you're doing. You also should be unsummoning Abigail when she gets low instead of letting her die, so you shouldn't be waiting for 5 minutes after every boss fight.

2. You don't need to mass produce forget me lots unless you're trying to tank bosses with Abigail (which you shouldn't be).

3. Armored Bearger is one boss. It's okay for characters to have bad matchups just like it's okay for them to have good matchups.

4. Glad we agree. Team spirit is the best part of her skill tree.

5. Yes, this is why I said the intent of Gestalt Abigail was for her to be more survivable. I didn't say that she actually accomplishes that.

 

[Debruh]

9 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

two werepigs. two deerclops. celesital champion. two toadstool. klaus. shadow rook (III)

Pre Skill Tree: I have done most all the following with the exception of Scrappy, and miser toadstool (literally just buffed up toad), and I'm not a pro player lol. Last I checked, Lardee has also covered most of them on his YouTube channel, with the exception of the Crystal deerclops and Tier 3 Shadow rook, which he did on a twitch stream. There's also a video by him on Wendy vs All shadow pieces or smth like that, but haven't really watched it.

Nightmare werepig: Survivable

Spoiler

Sooth her, and just dodge. Nothing really to say her. The stomp attack can be hard ig

Scrappy werepig: Discussed in the post that you quoted, with a video linked. Did you not read what I said??

Deerclops: Survivable

Spoiler

Tank, with good damage you can drop her before she drops Abby. Elixirs exist.

Crystal Deerclops: Survivable

Spoiler

Use the gloomerang to keep the aggro on you. Hit as often as you can. Keep Abby riled up and attacking in melee distance, join her in melee when deerclops is knocked down.

Unsummon Abby when deerclops is getting back up again. Summon her when deerclops is regrowing the ice spikes, and rile her up again. Hit with the gloomerang as much as you can.

Changed post skill tree discussed below.

Toadstool (Misery is just stronger toadstool. Calling it two toadstools is kinda disingenuous, since one is the other with buffed up stats. Unlike Crystal deerclops and Armored bearger where have planar stuff and are very different fights than their og counterparts)

Spoiler

Sooth her, and dodge the attacks a bit early. She isn't affected by spore clouds.

Klaus: The problem isn't survivability, it's the fact that Abby can kill the two deer. Bad matchup, but not due to survivability (the problem being discussed in my posts and this whole thread).

Tier 3 Shadow Rook: Survivable

Spoiler

Rile her up, so she keeps her distance. Attack with her to keep the aggro, and run in the opposite direction of her so she isn't harmed by the attack.

Celestial Champion: 2/3 Survivable.

Spoiler

Vigor mortis makes her easily survive the first phase, only hard part is the stomp attack. It also makes her survive the second phase, the melee attacks are harder to dodge than the spin attack lol. Third phase is the only one that's not survivable. Even then, that's only one phase, in which CC won't even approach.You can take all the time you need to get Abby back up, no matter how many times he kills her.

!!!Btw: You can just unsummon when she's low on health, apply spectral cure-all, then resummon.

Post Skill tree: Fights such as Celestial Champion phase 3, klaus, and the beargers might now be possible without needing to unsummon her. Perhaps dodging CC's lasers with the new dash? Scaring the deer in klaus with the scare command? I haven't tested it cause haven't had enough time to, sadly

Crystal Deerclops: Definitely changed, for the better in my opinion

Spoiler

No need to unsummon her now, just use the escape command

Some old possible fights might have changed too.

Beequeen: Scare the grumbles mid fight to make Abby take less damage.

Ancient guardian and CC 1&2: Perhaps Vigor mortis is no longer need now that we have the dash and escape.

Ancient Fuelweaver: Dash helps with the minions, and positioning.

Now with the new elixir, you don't even have to unsummon Abby, at low health.

9 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

I sincerely suggest to actually use wendy fight some bosses in real game.
the summon and unsummon cost time.

They do cost time, but they can be used in most boss fights. There's even a lot of vidoes of people summoning Abby at Fuelweaver's phase two, one of the hardest fights to take a break in, as he's constantly aggroed on you, and if you leave the arena, he'll despawn in a bit.

You can simply walk away from most boss fights

[somethin]

I sometime think people here forget elixirs exist. Like, if you want to tank as normal characters you would bring more healing and armor, but people expect Abigail to be able tank everything on her own without no extra resources? Bunk. Bunk I say!

[Debruh]

10 minutes ago, somethin said:

I sometime think people here forget elixirs exist. Like, if you want to tank as normal characters you would bring more healing and armor, but people expect Abigail to be able tank everything on her own without no extra resources?

I think it's in bad faith to say that they want Abby to tank, considering they have stayed that they don't want her to.

But I do agree that elixirs are forgotten about. Especially Vigor mortis

People forget that Vigor mortis exists, so much, it's actually wild to me.

Saw a post one that just straight up called it useless and that it should be a 'qol'

It's an elixir that makes dodging toadstool way eaisier. And turns fighting Ag with Abby from constantly unsummoning and summoning her, to just dodging normally, as well as making CC possible. And I do think that with the 1.54x multiplier Abby provides for Wendy, that an elixir that only requires one mourning glory and one honey (Wendy&Abby bully bees and their queen) being required is fair balancing. Even without a beef, Wendy plus Abby do more damage than a lot of characters, 0.75×1.1×1.4 turns out to 1.155 plus Abby's own damage.

Dash kinda ruined it, but I guess that requires skill as well as two insight points, so fair ig.

You either use the elixir, not use Abby, or use Abby's commands.

[hyoton123]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:57 AM, Debruh said:

I always forget scrappy exists 

I wish I could…

[1007954611]

撞

[Zef Wang]

On 12/11/2024 at 1:33 AM, hyoton123 said:

That is one of the craziest conclusions I have heard of. That is *insanely* high considering abigail’s much more general availability and utility. Do you just not position/kite/unsummon in bosses?

Haha, I bet you've misunderstood. Abigail's survivability is directly related only to the probability of dying, and indirectly related to health and defense (if we follow your thinking, an Abigail with 2600 health... that would be a disaster). In the last test version, the Moon Abigail with an invincible effect while attacking had perfectly adequate survivability. So, bro, don't scare yourself for no reason.  :-）

[Mr Giggio]

On 12/9/2024 at 11:10 PM, Lardee said:

Gestalt Abigail's design intent is to trade AoE for survivabiliy

The attack here skill still has AoE once the attack goes in a straight line like moose charge eh

[Dingle]

On 12/11/2024 at 1:51 AM, Debruh said:

Pre Skill Tree: I have done most all the following with the exception of Scrappy, and miser toadstool (literally just buffed up toad), and I'm not a pro player lol. Last I checked, Lardee has also covered most of them on his YouTube channel, with the exception of the Crystal deerclops and Tier 3 Shadow rook, which he did on a twitch stream. There's also a video by him on Wendy vs All shadow pieces or smth like that, but haven't really watched it.

Nightmare werepig: Survivable

  Hide contents

Sooth her, and just dodge. Nothing really to say her. The stomp attack can be hard ig

Scrappy werepig: Discussed in the post that you quoted, with a video linked. Did you not read what I said??

Deerclops: Survivable

  Hide contents

Tank, with good damage you can drop her before she drops Abby. Elixirs exist.

Crystal Deerclops: Survivable

  Hide contents

Use the gloomerang to keep the aggro on you. Hit as often as you can. Keep Abby riled up and attacking in melee distance, join her in melee when deerclops is knocked down.

Unsummon Abby when deerclops is getting back up again. Summon her when deerclops is regrowing the ice spikes, and rile her up again. Hit with the gloomerang as much as you can.

Changed post skill tree discussed below.

Toadstool (Misery is just stronger toadstool. Calling it two toadstools is kinda disingenuous, since one is the other with buffed up stats. Unlike Crystal deerclops and Armored bearger where have planar stuff and are very different fights than their og counterparts)

  Hide contents

Sooth her, and dodge the attacks a bit early. She isn't affected by spore clouds.

Klaus: The problem isn't survivability, it's the fact that Abby can kill the two deer. Bad matchup, but not due to survivability (the problem being discussed in my posts and this whole thread).

Tier 3 Shadow Rook: Survivable

  Hide contents

Rile her up, so she keeps her distance. Attack with her to keep the aggro, and run in the opposite direction of her so she isn't harmed by the attack.

Celestial Champion: 2/3 Survivable.

  Hide contents

Vigor mortis makes her easily survive the first phase, only hard part is the stomp attack. It also makes her survive the second phase, the melee attacks are harder to dodge than the spin attack lol. Third phase is the only one that's not survivable. Even then, that's only one phase, in which CC won't even approach.You can take all the time you need to get Abby back up, no matter how many times he kills her.

!!!Btw: You can just unsummon when she's low on health, apply spectral cure-all, then resummon.

Post Skill tree: Fights such as Celestial Champion phase 3, klaus, and the beargers might now be possible without needing to unsummon her. Perhaps dodging CC's lasers with the new dash? Scaring the deer in klaus with the scare command? I haven't tested it cause haven't had enough time to, sadly

Crystal Deerclops: Definitely changed, for the better in my opinion

  Hide contents

No need to unsummon her now, just use the escape command

Some old possible fights might have changed too.

Beequeen: Scare the grumbles mid fight to make Abby take less damage.

Ancient guardian and CC 1&2: Perhaps Vigor mortis is no longer need now that we have the dash and escape.

Ancient Fuelweaver: Dash helps with the minions, and positioning.

Now with the new elixir, you don't even have to unsummon Abby, at low health.

They do cost time, but they can be used in most boss fights. There's even a lot of vidoes of people summoning Abby at Fuelweaver's phase two, one of the hardest fights to take a break in, as he's constantly aggroed on you, and if you leave the arena, he'll despawn in a bit.

You can simply walk away from most boss fights

I didn't know you could use elixers on unsummoned abby now. Didnt even try to! That is amazing!

Yeah that is a crazy buff the more I think about it. And its baseline kit.

[Zef Wang]

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I didn't know you could use elixers on unsummoned abby now. Didnt even try to! That is amazing!

It's always been this way... :-）

[Dingle]

3 minutes ago, Zef Wang said:

It's always been this way... :-）

Really? I always dragged elixers directly to her. I never mained her, but sometimes used her for ruins rushes.

[Debruh]

15 minutes ago, Dingle said:

didn't know you could use elixers on unsummoned abby now. Didnt even try to! That is amazing!

Yeah that is a crazy buff the more I think about it. And its baseline kit.

 

8 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Really? I always dragged elixers directly to her. I never mained her, but sometimes used her for ruins rushes

Like, 90% sure that a lot of the people that don't use elixirs, don't use them cause they think you need to apply it on Abby herself.

The flower could be used to apply the elixirs, like storing stuff in a bearger pin or pearl's box thingies idk

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, Debruh said:

 

Like, 90% sure that a lot of the people that don't use elixirs, don't use them cause they think you need to apply it on Abby herself.

The flower could be used to apply the elixirs, like storing stuff in a bearger pin or pearl's box thingies idk

You just right click on them now, so that should help people a lot with figuring out you can use them on unsummoned abby.

[hyoton123]

2 hours ago, Zef Wang said:

Haha, I bet you've misunderstood. Abigail's survivability is directly related only to the probability of dying, and indirectly related to health and defense (if we follow your thinking, an Abigail with 2600 health... that would be a disaster). In the last test version, the Moon Abigail with an invincible effect while attacking had perfectly adequate survivability. So, bro, don't scare yourself for no reason.  :-）

It's the same thing. She shouldn't be tankier (or more survivable, whatever you are going to say that means) than the NPC which is intended to tank and has limited ST damage and a sanity condition, much less than by 120% to 180%, however you choose to define it. Again, that is *insane.* That is just not going to happen. Bernie's functionality almost all comes from skilltree and it still is more limited than abigail, which can be modded by potions.

 

And doubled bernie "survivability" would still get utterly obliterated on the mobs which people are complaining about.

[1007954611]

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