Is Wendy a strong character?

[Sapientis]

36 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

Wendy's focus is survival (not combat) and she is the best character for that (in my opinion).

Okay, I don't deny that.

Wendy might be considered strong for the good times, to say so, but If we look at DST as a whole game expirience Wendy doesn't really do that well.

She might be the best at 60% of DST, but still do quite poorly at 40%, that most players don't even try at all (or progress that far).

The question remains: is that considered being strong? And we may find this to be a semantic problem, because I think strong is the one who can overcome everything, and by that definition Wendy isn't particularly stronger than other Survivalists, relatively.

Wendy very much is a newbie trap - she makes basic survival a no-brainer and also makes bigger threats even worse to deal with.

I personally enjoy Wendy, but would like her to have a little smoother gameplay progress curve. For now she has possibly the biggest difference between her basic survival difficulty and completing the game 100% difficulty.

[SpookyXy]

9 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Wendy might be considered strong for the good times, to say so, but If we look at DST as a whole game expirience Wendy doesn't really do that well.

The only things Wendy is worse at fighting are bosses but the majority of bosses are either optional or seasonal. Its a downside the player never has to contend with if they don't want to, albeit they won't be able to beat the game and experience all the content if they don't. She also only suffers from a flat damage reduction, it doesn't change her game plan. If you could beat a boss as Wilson, you can do it as Wendy, it will just take longer.

But if you play Wendy as beefalo simulator this downside practically disappears and you can still use Abby's aoe to trivualize some of the hardest fights in the game for the other characters. This is overly simplistic and Wendy definetely needs some more tweeks to her skill tree but you cannot deny that she is a strong character, especially for how easy she is to use.

[Sapientis]

17 minutes ago, SpookyXy said:

The only things Wendy is worse at fighting are bosses but the majority of bosses are either optional or seasonal. Its a downside the player never has to contend with if they don't want to, albeit they won't be able to beat the game and experience all the content if they don't. She also only suffers from a flat damage reduction, it doesn't change her game plan. If you could beat a boss as Wilson, you can do it as Wendy, it will just take longer.

But if you play Wendy as beefalo simulator this downside practically disappears and you can still use Abby's aoe to trivualize some of the hardest fights in the game for the other characters. This is overly simplistic and Wendy definetely needs some more tweeks to her skill tree but you cannot deny that she is a strong character, especially for how easy she is to use.

I'm sorry but it's like if you said "the only thing a person without an umbrella and living in London is worse at going out is when it's raining outside, but the majority of going outside is either optional or seasonal. Its a downside the person never has to contend with if they don't want to, albeit they won't be able to go out whenever they want and experience all the outside world if they don't. They also only suffer from getting wet, it doesn't change their life plan. If you could walk outside in the rain with an umbrella, you can do it without it, it will just make you wetter.

But if you walk outside without an umbrella in a car this downside practically disappears and you can still use your shiny rubber boots to cross some of the deepest puddles in the world for the other people with sneakers."

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Sapientis said:

Okay, I don't deny that.

Wendy might be considered strong for the good times, to say so, but If we look at DST as a whole game expirience Wendy doesn't really do that well.

She might be the best at 60% of DST, but still do quite poorly at 40%, that most players don't even try at all (or progress that far).

The question remains: is that considered being strong? And we may find this to be a semantic problem, because I think strong is the one who can overcome everything, and by that definition Wendy isn't particularly stronger than other Survivalists, relatively.

Wendy very much is a newbie trap - she makes basic survival a no-brainer and also makes bigger threats even worse to deal with.

I personally enjoy Wendy, but would like her to have a little smoother gameplay progress curve. For now she has possibly the biggest difference between her basic survival difficulty and completing the game 100% difficulty.

I feel like that entirely depends on if being strong against bosses is the true definition of strength in dst if the answer is no then yes Wendy is a very strong character but if the answer is yes then we need to go back and make everyone strong at bosses for the sake of balance.

[Anis5240]

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

make everyone strong at bosses for the sake of balance.

There hadn't been balance since ever hur dur. Ever since Maxwell's rework, may I add.

[Sapientis]

39 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like that entirely depends on if being strong against bosses is the true definition of strength in dst if the answer is no then yes Wendy is a very strong character but if the answer is yes then we need to go back and make everyone strong at bosses for the sake of balance.

This is some overinterpretation.

Maybe the point of this topic is the very definition of the word "strong". I consider it holistically - given whole gameplay expirience of playing Wendy. Here "strong" would refer to dealing well with every single one of game's mechanics overall.

Bosses are a part of the game, and actually quite the significant part at that.

However nowhere did I mention that balance is needed. I only tried to point out that Wendy isn't that strong in my opinion and by my measures (which I try to keep as close to objective as possible, thus the reality check by the poll).

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

This is some overinterpretation.

Maybe the point of this topic is the very definition of the word "strong". I consider it holistically - given whole gameplay expirience of playing Wendy. Here "strong" would refer to dealing well with every single one of game's mechanics overall.

Bosses are a part of the game, and actually quite the significant part at that.

However nowhere did I mention that balance is needed. I only tried to point out that Wendy isn't that strong in my opinion and by my measures (which I try to keep as close to objective as possible, thus the reality check by the poll).

Everyone free to have their own interpretation of strong but by this definition of strong seems flawed if we look at the current available characters as no character truely excels at everything. Some are better at transportation, some are better at production or automation, while others are better at direct combat or horde combat. It may be flawed on my part as well but my interpretation of strong is how effective a character is at what they specialize in.

[Mike23Ua]

15 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Everyone free to have their own interpretation of strong but by this definition of strong seems flawed if we look at the current available characters as no character truely excels at everything. Some are better at transportation, some are better at production or automation, while others are better at direct combat or horde combat. It may be flawed on my part as well but my interpretation of strong is how effective a character is at what they specialize in.

This.

If I want to freely teleport all across the entire map for almost free, I’ll pick Wortox or Winona.

If I want to have an easier time with boat content I’ll pick Winona (due to duct tape being a boat patch AND a Thermal Stone Repair item, the extended range of sight provided by her “now Heated” spotlights,  And the Catapults)

If I want to absolutely demolish a huge field of spiders I’ll pick Wendy.

If I want to cut a 27,500hp bosses health down by no joke Half of that, I’ll pick Wolfgang.

Wendy was a strong and busted character pick BEFORE character Reworks and Skill Trees…

But when you got characters like WX78 zipping around at super speeds while illuminated by permanent lighting… Wendy starts to fall out of being broken OP and just becomes in line with every other character pick.

for example Wigfrid who was already seen as a strong character pick before her skill tree, now has a shield that when timed and used correctly… negates all incoming damage.

This was given to a character who, vampires Health away from enemies that she continued to hit.

Can we give this Wendy OP thing a rest already?? It’s holding her back from getting a fun fleshed out playstyle beyond being a literal one trick pony…

[scratchvarius]

Survivability is no problem for veterans. My little hope is having a companion in most boss fights.

[abrocator]

The game needs variety in character approach with this large of a roster and with the limited gameplay mechanics. In other words the large roster can be used to support different playstyles as well as different ways to play the game altogether—from survival to killing bosses to the dual end-game boss runs.

To contrast: what the game doesn’t need is the whole roster being judged by how well they go through a Kill All Bosses run culminating in killing CC and then how well they deal with post-rifts. The game is both larger and smaller than that.

Again there is a large roster. But the gameplay mechanics aren’t that varied. And especially not if they are to be judged by how well they can go through kill all bosses playthrough.

Wendy’s skilltree seems kind of meh at the moment. But Wendy outside this beta is fine. She doesn’t have anything for post-rifts. She is weak in any fight without Abby and/or a beefalo. But she’s a mob survivability powerhouse. It doesn’t matter that this survivability doesn’t extend to lunar froggy assaults or something like that.

[hyoton123]

I answered this poll, but I want to know something before i go on. You keep talking about abigail. How much weaker do you think wendy is vs wilson in combat, post rift, assuming you never took abigail out at all?

[Sapientis]

1 hour ago, hyoton123 said:

How much weaker do you think wendy is vs wilson in combat, post rift, assuming you never took abigail out at all?

Given how post rift weapons' damage and Planar Enitity Protection are calculated she's probably at 85-90% of a Wilson (minus additional 10% with Wilson Shadow/LunarAllegiance, but Wendy's probably getting that as well soon).

I get it's not that bad, but Abigail is quite useless post rifts and from the current beta iteration of Wendy's skilltree it doesn't seem to address any of the problems Wendy should face. Flat 15 Planar Defense is virtually nothing when it comes to 130 retaliation damage from even the Deadly Brightshade. Abigail will die after 6 attacks, dealing like 40-50 damage during the day, 150-170 during night? And she just dies, becomming useless for the next day or so. Willow has no damage penalty harself, has Planar Damage spells as well as her Bernie with 2k+hp, with Planar Entity Protection and it can be sewed up immediatelly after death to the full 2k+hp.

See my problem with it?

[Evelo]

14 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Willow has no damage penalty harself, has Planar Damage spells as well as her Bernie with 2k+hp, with Planar Entity Protection and it can be sewed up immediatelly after death to the full 2k+hp.

Huh, it is almost like the Willow skill tree was over powered instead of giving her a proper refresh.

Or vise versa depending on your perspective.

[Echsrick]

13 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

 

 

man, to see how BIG the difference is...makes me kind of sad realy, like its not even close

[Edible Coal]

32 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

man, to see how BIG the difference is...makes me kind of sad realy, like its not even close

remember most player arn't 1k masters, so is not too surprising

[Siren11]

Wendy is a strong character for basic survival. She’s simple and she’s good at what she does. She can also be very strong against most bosses (especially if you tame a Beefalo), but I find that she’s often harder than most characters because of the difficulty spike in learning how to manage Abigail correctly. Even if you manage to get Abby positioned perfectly, sometimes her AI is a bit wonky or other players mess you up. And Beefalo taming isn’t some perfect solution unless you’re already quite good at the game, especially with knockback requiring you to do fights essentially hitless.

I’ve never really understood the idea that Wendy was some crazy OP character, but I guess I started getting into the game around the time of Maxwell’s refresh…

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Echsrick said:

man, to see how BIG the difference is...makes me kind of sad realy, like its not even close

There are a ton of factors that could go into people choosing to play as any particular character.

For myself as soon as I had earned enough Exp in Solo Dont Starve to unlock Wendy she quickly became my favorite of a cast of at that time: pretty bland and basic characters.

But as I continued to play as her and discover her secrets.. (remember in Solo DS it isn’t made immediately apparent you have a Ghost AI Follower, and without online guides you’ll discover this for the first time probably by complete accident..) I fell in love with the character who needed to drop her flower on the ground and murder a nearby creature to summon her ghost twin sister.

I am a bit weird, I’m drawn to the creepy, the spooky, the abnormal and supernatural so the very first time I trigger this ghost-y friend I’m instantly hooked on yup this is my main now..

Her character quotes and instrument sounds become same of my favorite dialogue in the game.

& then in DST Klei Doubled down on that love for her as a character by removing a TON of the original hassles Solo DS Wendy had (Aka a dumb AI follower that would suicide itself into a Swamp Tentacle and Die) Of course there’s always the amazing skins for her that make her a top pick too.

But what really makes her a top pick for me is while she is a Selfish “Alone” type of character who does all of her activities by herself without needing anyone else’s help (for the most part..) She has no trouble gathering TONS of Silk and Spider Glands, which if your like me and you have a ton of noob friends who die continuously over and over again trying to learn the game…

Allows you to supply them with tools of assistance such as Top Hats for sanity, Tents for health restoration and of course the inevitable- Tons and tons and tons of your own blood (no I’m not joking about this..) when you must sacrifice your own health to continue to bring them back from the dead.

a lot of people judge Wendy players as being “Easy Mode” when the reality is a lot of us are probably limping around on 3hp remaining from all the heavy healing we’ve had to do to dead noobs.

As a Solo player though I always saw Abby as being more like this “Player Two” and no matter how powerful she seems to people, she’s never going to beat a team of Two Wolfgang’s, that combo lowers a bosses health down to 25% just because the two of them exist and work as team.

But, I also rotate between every single playable character pick in the entire game so I can better understand what each character needs, and what NOT to do around them.

Such as: playing as Woodie and chopping a billion trees near Wormwood- The only character in the entire game who loses sanity if they’re nearby someone who’s chopping a tree down.

I quickly learned that Wendy-Wortox combo is good but only if Wortox is nowhere near Wendy doing her mob blending thing to accidentally Overload his souls capacity and cause negative effects.

These are just SOME examples of how DS is a franchise that asks players to learn the ins and outs of each character to better help and provide with the “Together” portion of the game & Wendy is a top pick when it comes to being able to help and provide resources for other players to survive/revive etc…

[Evelo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I quickly learned that Wendy-Wortox combo is good but only if Wortox is nowhere near Wendy doing her mob blending thing to accidentally Overload his souls capacity and cause negative effects.

Well now with the soul jar that is a non issue.

[Sapientis]

4 hours ago, Evelo said:

Huh, it is almost like the Willow skill tree was over powered instead of giving her a proper refresh.

She received some awesome QoL changes and then some over the top things that just pushed her to the crazy good teritory, that's how I see it at least.

In my opinion it was a very strong and fleshed out skilltree, maybe quite one-sided, because there are skills I'd always take and those I don't understand who in their right mind would even consider. If you say it's bad because it makes her too good... I can see your point, especially her spells could be taken down a notch or two, maybe give her a limit of Embers as well, but at least her flaws were addressed and it made me want to play her for a while. Plus Bernie became really helpful finally.

Ye... Well now, when I think about Willow she does seem really strong, maybe I tolerate her more because of the power creep that overcame DST with most updates...

Still if you don't overuse Lunar/Shadow Flames too much, Willow is just a strong and fun character, that doesn't seem like playing with cheats, which I always felt like when playing Wanda or Wigfrid (probably also Wolf and Max, but I don't play Wolfie that much and Max at least dies much easier post rifts due to his lower health). I guess Wanda falls a little post rifts as well, because you shouldn't stay old as much not to die too easily to planar damage...

 

I play a lot of MOBA, so I might subconsciously need balancing out characters weaker in my eyes and hating on overpowered characters. Also my point of view is from the singleplayer perspective mostly, I get that multiplayer Wendy might be weaker against bosses and players don't mind that generally.

[Evelo]

15 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Also my point of view is from the singleplayer perspective mostly

Ye, I use to play a lot of HotS since it was (imo) the best MOBA, I totally get the balancing act in the brain. I only play solo so I always look at balance from that perspective. I wouldn't mind Willow's extreme powercreep if most of her ember skills were put into her base kit and didn't lock the player out. It makes it a non-choice almost because you have to take it. Because as you said, who in their right mind would even consider [not taking those]? Same with most of the other characters. Wigfrid has that song pouch. Why is that locked behind a skill and not just a baseline addition? Why is Winona's structure disassembly stuff a skill instead of baseline (oh but it's 1 point and the first point!) Yeah, it is, however that 1 point could be used to make a transfer thing.

It is also very character dependant as well. Wormwood had that 2 separate 1 point starting areas and I felt it really needed to be combined into 1 that way the player can have an extra point to spend in a branching path. Flow is really important and the way restrictions occur really need to be considered for an appealing UI and player engagement with a system. Especially one that is meant to be focused on player choice.

But hey, maybe I need to stop complaining and learn how to mod so I can actually make an expanded Skillset system that really forces player choice and for said choices to truly matter because that is what I want in the end.

[Grove]

Wendy can easily survive, no need to expand on that.

She's also great at bosses. Abigail can't be kept alive only on deerclops and bearger, also known as campfire tank (you can also just dodge) and wood chopper.

She struggles a bit more with like, toadstool than other characters but that's kinda it. (Also you can cheese toadstool with Wendy&Abi but maybe that doesn't work anymore) She just has a different way of dealing with some of them, that may come off as harder, but honestly a lot of times isn't. You just need to use a beef.

She easily does beequeen, easily does ancient guardian, nightmare werepig is the same as ther characters with a beef, just with the additional of Abigail, who isn't much of a problem im this fight. Can do AFW earlier that most characters. Can do toadstool, but just needs to dodge a bit earlier, compensated by the fact that her damage (if using an ornery beef with a war or nightmare saddle) is pretty good. Antlion can be cheesed. Crabking is practically the same. Dragonfly is easier with Wendy, except the putting her to sleep part. Frostjaw might be a problem. Phase 1, and 2 of CC can be a bit hard, it's the final boss after all, but can be done, phase 3 just out Abi away. She can outdps deerclops and feastclops on a beef before Abi dies. Moosegoose can also be outdpsed

Planar stuff already can removes Wendy's downside, but the traditional ink blights can be down with Abi. The new ink blight can be easily revealed with Abi. Brightshades can be easily down with Abi, just be careful. Possessed varg is easy with Abi. Only crystal deerclops and armored bearger can't be done with Abi.

With the new skill tree, unsummoning Abi is way easier, so you can just unsummon her and put a healing elixer on her in dire need (base feature now). Applying elixers also just requires a right click. Riling her up and soothing her is maybe a bit hader, but good tradeoff.

Abi can now turn into a gest.. lunar ghost, and attack less often but with higher damage, meaning that she draws less aggro. You can redirect all damage (after armor) you take to her with the new shirt. 

I think the skill tree needs some work, both buffing and nerfing stuff (you don't even need to care about the temperature due to the new shirt). But it seems to be going a nice way, with pretty good ideas.

[Sapientis]

17 minutes ago, Evelo said:

I wouldn't mind Willow's extreme powercreep if most of her ember skills were put into her base kit and didn't lock the player out. It makes it a non-choice almost because you have to take it. Because as you said, who in their right mind would even consider [not taking those]? Same with most of the other characters. Wigfrid has that song pouch. Why is that locked behind a skill and not just a baseline addition? Why is Winona's structure disassembly stuff a skill instead of baseline (oh but it's 1 point and the first point!) Yeah, it is, however that 1 point could be used to make a transfer thing.

It is also very character dependant as well. Wormwood had that 2 separate 1 point starting areas and I felt it really needed to be combined into 1 that way the player can have an extra point to spend in a branching path. Flow is really important and the way restrictions occur really need to be considered for an appealing UI and player engagement with a system. Especially one that is meant to be focused on player choice.

I understand skilltrees to be character upgrades, that are "locked" behind Insight so a new player doesn't get overwhelmed with too much choices when they pick the character. They need some time to understand basic stuff a character does and then they can pick some other good additions, that's why some skills are just starters in my opinion.

Skills that unlock certain 1 time crafts are there to encourage changing chosen skills after some time, that's how I understand it. There are also some skills that are only good for early game and are quite useless later on, like Woodie's cane carving, or skills that only get usefull post rifts like Wormwood's Guardian skills, or Wolfgang's Planar Might skills. I guess it's an intended way to pick early game set of skills, beat one final boss (with one Allegiance) and then swap your skills via Celestial Portal to the other set of lategame skills (with the other Allegiance).

9 minutes ago, Debruh said:

You just need to use a beef.

Yea, that's probably my problem with her...

I get that she is much stronger when using the Beefalo and her struggling with most bosses comes from not using it.

I just consider the design of forcing you to use the beefalo to be strong, kind of flawed.

Thanks for that reminder though, I guess it's just my prejudice to the struggle and hussle of Beefalo taming process. I don't like relying on mobs that can just die on me :P

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Debruh said:

You can redirect all damage (after armor) you take to her with the new shirt. 

I think the skill tree needs some work, both buffing and nerfing stuff (you don't even need to care about the temperature due to the new shirt).

This was changed. The shroud was reworked to share your head armor with Abi instead. Abi's max health was also buffed, I think.

[WenericMember]

1 hour ago, Debruh said:

She's also great at bosses. Abigail can't be kept alive only on deerclops and bearger, also known as campfire tank (you can also just dodge) and wood chopper.

That is amusing just because they're the first two bosses you're realistically going to encounters, as they're the only ones that ever actively come to you.

Out of curiosity, which boss is it practicing on to best get familiar with kiting w/ abigail? I've got regular kiting mostly down, but it's another issue entirely.

[W0l0l0]

I wish we could have had a standard of power to use as a benchmark, with distinct upper and lower limits like we used to (Wilson, dark sword, limited number of perks).

Now everything is just sort of a mess, boundaries are continuously being pushed in all directions and it throws everything out of whack.