Adjust mob/boss health with number of players

[Uncrushed]

Bottom Line:
I just don't want to play without the Automatic Health Adjust mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=764204839 I keep Beefalo at 1000 health, but otherwise accept defaults.  I know you don't normally implement features that a mod has implemented, but I think you should make an exception.

My Skill/Knowledge:
I have played DST for 2K hrs and DS for 300 (including Hamlet and Shipwrecked), all using a desktop and keyboard.  I've defeated Bee Queen, Toadstool, and Klaus as Walter without nerfing boss or mob health.

My reasoning:
If I accumulate the necessary Thulecite crowns, Night Armor, Darkswords, healing and sanity foods, and set up an arena with cobblestones, or wall off lava pools, or whatever, I don't then want a 10 minute fight where I die at the end the first 15 times I attempt it.  I feel like I paid the game's price with intense preparation.  30 seconds or one minute of dodging Dragonfly's swings feels difficult enough when I spent a season or two of the game preparing for this event.  10 minutes of this is *less* fun for me than 1.

As Walter, it took 700 thulecite rounds and 5-7 Weather Pains for Toadstool.  The Bee Queen fight takes me 3-5 game days (make an "X" out of walls, 480 marble rounds, 3-5 beefalo treats, ride in circles around the X shooting, pan-flute - dismount - feed treats - repeat).  One day is fun.  5 is just annoying.  I use 40+ gunpowder for Dragonfly.  That's a *lot* of preparation!

I have 3 friends that I think would love this game, but they all said, "I just kept dying."  I still think of it as a survival game with bosses.  Or maybe I should stay I enjoy this game most as a survival game with bosses.

I also like the cute aspects of this game.  I don't enjoy playing as Wolfgang, but boss fights are reasonable as him.  Wigfrid can handle some bosses as well.  You'd think I'd like Warly, and I do, but he's *so* complicated and solo farming all those peppers and volt goat horns feels punishing in another way.

Rambling:
I could probably try Warly again now that I'm better with Knobbly trees.  All the depths worm attacks while farming in the caves were what ultimately wore me down (playing with full-health mobs and bosses).  I probably won't try it because it's just more fun with weaker bosses, even though I don't get the bragging rights.

[grm9]

you can do dfly consistently before day like 4 or 5 with x1 damage multiplier so ???

how do you end up spending seasons on preparation

[arubaro]

57 minutes ago, Uncrushed said:

I don't then want a 10 minute fight where I die at the end the first 15 times I attempt it.

Maybe im wrong but this sounds like wanting to win without learning

58 minutes ago, Uncrushed said:

"I just kept dying." 

That is the point of the game. Maybe they dont enjoy these kind of games. Reviving is really cheap for a reason

[00petar00]

On 10/19/2024 at 4:07 PM, Uncrushed said:

I have 3 friends that I think would love this game, but they all said, "I just kept dying."  I still think of it as a survival game with bosses.  Or maybe I should stay I enjoy this game most as a survival game with bosses.

I have a lot of friends too that would love DST If bosses had health like single player version. 

A lot of people will lie and say that DS was difficult to justify bosses having low health but in all honesty you can pick any average player that needs more preparation compared to really good players and the average player will dominate DS bosses.

I do agree that I have also adapted to the HP of DST bosses and it would be too easy for me If it was decreased but I am not an expert that can kill most of them with minimal preparation and I don't think that just because someone can do it they will say that I am lazy because I don't like how a group of players melt a boss when I need to spend much more time on preparation and fight.

Bosses were balanced for multiplayer from the start but good players that have spent years playing the game don't want it to become easier, the issue is that bosses are melted in multiplayer while this only punishes solo players.

On 10/19/2024 at 5:06 PM, arubaro said:

Maybe im wrong but this sounds like wanting to win without learning

Players already do that regularly in groups since they melt boss and somehow solo player is in the wrong for not playing with other people and not liking how much more they have to learn the boss fight and prepare?

On 10/19/2024 at 5:06 PM, arubaro said:

That is the point of the game. Maybe they dont enjoy these kind of games. Reviving is really cheap for a reason

Why do you even learn to play better If the point of the game is to keep dying? It is actually the opposite, players want to survive and beat bosses without spending a long time on preparation.

[Well-met]

I'm sure Klei is very aware of this issue and there's probably a reason they have never done it (which I'd like for them to say)

[Uncrushed]

On 10/19/2024 at 11:06 AM, arubaro said:

Maybe im wrong but this sounds like wanting to win without learning

That is the point of the game. Maybe they dont enjoy these kind of games. Reviving is really cheap for a reason

Yes, I'd like to win without practicing every boss fight for hours with console commands before attempting it in a real game.  I just don't enjoy really long, hard boss fights, or maybe I just need to be introduced to those fights more gradually.

Yes, life-giving-amulets are cheap, but DST isn't like Hollow Knight where you can get back your health and get back to the boss in 5 minutes to try again.  When you revive in DST, you need to replace all the armor, weapons, and food you used before dying, and there are hound attacks and the seasons change in ways that can make the fight impractical for hours of playtime.  The Shadow Pieces and Moonstone event only happen once per lunar cycle (Wickerbottom can hurry this up, or Maxwell can by reading her books).

DST has the Relaxed mode that makes the survival aspect easier.  Terraria does that with Journey, Classic, Mediumcore, and Hardcore characters.  But they also do the opposite with Classic, Expert, and Master worlds that leave the death mechanics the same but progressively add boss (and mob) health.  You only get the trophy when you defeat the boss on the hardest level.  That exact system has made me replay Terraria.  Klei took The Twins from Terraria.  Why not this (and why not Shimmer)?   DST has options to make the survival aspects easier (Relaxed mode), why not the boss fights?

Existing players should still have their bragging rights if they just say they soloed the bosses on Master mode or 6-player health, or whatever.  But players new to the game could start with the same survival challenge, but easier boss health.  I think it would be best to scale boss health to match the number of players in the game when the boss fight begins, but just providing easier boss fights in general would work for me.

[arubaro]

13 hours ago, Uncrushed said:

Yes, I'd like to win without practicing every boss fight for hours with console commands before attempting it in a real game.  I just don't enjoy really long, hard boss fights, or maybe I just need to be introduced to those fights more gradually.

Yes, life-giving-amulets are cheap, but DST isn't like Hollow Knight where you can get back your health and get back to the boss in 5 minutes to try again.  When you revive in DST, you need to replace all the armor, weapons, and food you used before dying, and there are hound attacks and the seasons change in ways that can make the fight impractical for hours of playtime.  The Shadow Pieces and Moonstone event only happen once per lunar cycle (Wickerbottom can hurry this up, or Maxwell can by reading her books).

DST has the Relaxed mode that makes the survival aspect easier.  Terraria does that with Journey, Classic, Mediumcore, and Hardcore characters.  But they also do the opposite with Classic, Expert, and Master worlds that leave the death mechanics the same but progressively add boss (and mob) health.  You only get the trophy when you defeat the boss on the hardest level.  That exact system has made me replay Terraria.  Klei took The Twins from Terraria.  Why not this (and why not Shimmer)?   DST has options to make the survival aspects easier (Relaxed mode), why not the boss fights?

Existing players should still have their bragging rights if they just say they soloed the bosses on Master mode or 6-player health, or whatever.  But players new to the game could start with the same survival challenge, but easier boss health.  I think it would be best to scale boss health to match the number of players in the game when the boss fight begins, but just providing easier boss fights in general would work for me.

You have rollbacks

[Guille6785]

stop copying what youtube videos show you

[Swiyss]

It's called Don't Starve *Together* for a reason. Of course the adaptations of this mod shouldn't be in the game. It's good enough that this is a mod.

[DeeterDeet]

Hmmm.... 

I actually think that they should add this, but for a different reason.

Sometimes, when you have like 10 people on a server, the boss fights end in like two seconds. I think that most of the boss fights are pretty much perfect in length in regards to single player. However, when playing on a really popular server, the boss fights are just too fast to get any satisfaction out of them. 

So, if they were to add this into the game at all, they should keep single player boss fights as they are but then increase the health SLIGHTLY for servers with more than like six people in them.

 

However:

I don't think they will add this feature or any variation of it because this idea is pretty simple and yet seems to be really controversial. It was so easy that it most likely would have been done already if they had even considered adding it any time soon.

While I may dislike the idea in its entirety, I also dislike the attitude of many commenters on this post. I don't think people need to be rude or shame others for things they think of. This place is for discussion and debate, not petty arguments and insults. Also, just because something is a mod, doesn't mean it shouldn't be added to the game to make it more accessible to more players that don't necessarily have the resources for mods.

 

So enough of my yapping and I just want to say: Let's all please be nice please 

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, DeeterDeet said:

Hmmm.... 

I actually think that they should add this, but for a different reason.

Sometimes, when you have like 10 people on a server, the boss fights end in like two seconds. I think that most of the boss fights are pretty much perfect in length in regards to single player. However, when playing on a really popular server, the boss fights are just too fast to get any satisfaction out of them. 

So, if they were to add this into the game at all, they should keep single player boss fights as they are but then increase the health SLIGHTLY for servers with more than like six people in them.

 

However:

I don't think they will add this feature or any variation of it because this idea is pretty simple and yet seems to be really controversial. It was so easy that it most likely would have been done already if they had even considered adding it any time soon.

While I may dislike the idea in its entirety, I also dislike the attitude of many commenters on this post. I don't think people need to be rude or shame others for things they think of. This place is for discussion and debate, not petty arguments and insults. Also, just because something is a mod, doesn't mean it shouldn't be added to the game to make it more accessible to more players that don't necessarily have the resources for mods.

 

So enough of my yapping and I just want to say: Let's all please be nice please 

the game was not balanced for 10 people, but for 6.

[arubaro]

19 hours ago, Swiyss said:

the game was not balanced for 10 people, but for 6.

But for 1 to 3 in terms of combat and +4 in terms of resources avaraible

[Hungry French]

On 10/24/2024 at 3:41 AM, Swiyss said:

the game was not balanced for 10 people, but for 6.

Rather, the game is balanced for 1-6 people. There is a very crooked balance in DST. Some items have health equal to the original DS, and some like Toadstool are more suitable for 6 players.

On 10/24/2024 at 12:13 AM, Swiyss said:

It's called Don't Starve *Together* for a reason. Of course the adaptations of this mod shouldn't be in the game. It's good enough that this is a mod.

The game has a feature to play alone. So the developers should take care of the solo players. At least because Don't Starve ( Solo) is a dead game at the moment.

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, Hungry French said:

Rather, the game is balanced for 1-6 people. There is a very crooked balance in DST. Some items have health equal to the original DS, and some like Toadstool are more suitable for 6 players.

The game has a feature to play alone. So the developers should take care of the solo players. At least because Don't Starve ( Solo) is a dead game at the moment.

More than 15k people playing everyday. That's not dead to me.

There's triple A games on steam with less than 3k current players. There are mmo's with less than 10k. If you consider DS a dead game then that's just your perspective. And DS is a finished game btw, but devs STILL went out of their way to update the game after 10 years and fixed massive amount of bugs with a huge hotfix.

Now, I don't disagree that the devs should also think about the people who play DST alone, but that should not be the primary focus of it. Changing enemies hp for solo would mean the primary focus of the game called Don't Starve Together is for solo players, and that's just not plausible. In my opinion, making the health of enemies drop when less people are fighting it would allow for weird people trying to solo things in pubs rather than playing *together*. It would defeat the purpose of the game period.

[Swiyss]

Klei can add an option in settings to reduce enemies health for solo. And that woul be very simple to do too. I agree with that, but changing the original numbers no.

[Hungry French]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

More than 15k people playing everyday. That's not dead to me.

There's triple A games on steam with less than 3k current players. There are mmo's with less than 10k. If you consider DS a dead game then that's just your perspective. And DS is a finished game btw, but devs STILL went out of their way to update the game after 10 years and fixed massive amount of bugs with a huge hotfix.

Now, I don't disagree that the devs should also think about the people who play DST alone, but that should not be the primary focus of it. Changing enemies hp for solo would mean the primary focus of the game called Don't Starve Together is for solo players, and that's just not plausible. In my opinion, making the health of enemies drop when less people are fighting it would allow for weird people trying to solo things in pubs rather than playing *together*. It would defeat the purpose of the game period.

I think it was a bad idea to release DST. Initially, the developers wanted to make multiplayer as a paid DLC for DS, but in the end they made DST, which divided the DS fandom into 2 parts and the developers closed the existence of a real solo game.
There should be 2 modes singleplayer and multiplayer. Technically, singleplayer exists, but it differs from multiplayer only in that there cannot be more than 1 person in the game, and that is... strange... Hp scaling... If it should be, then it's global.

Primary focus ?
Klei never thinks about solo players. Here's how many changes in 8 years can you remember in DST that will balance the game for solo? I don't remember any of them.
They should pay attention to solo at least a LITTLE BIT.
Really. I'm not talking about generation, modified behavior for solo bosses, not shards world.
For 8 years, The Lazy Deserter has not performed its functions in solo.
 But they could at least make hp for solo play in 8 YEARS.  
As a last resort, they could at least write down what hp bosses and creatures would have if they were in DS.
However, there is an official hp solo in the game files for :
Deer : 350 hp ( 700 multiplayer )
Grassgator :  500 hp ( 1000 multiplayer )

And. 

Marbatross : 2500 hp ( 5000 multiplayer )
Ancient Sentrypede : 400 hp ( 1200 multiplayer )

[Hungry French]

29 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Klei can add an option in settings to reduce enemies health for solo. And that woul be very simple to do too. I agree with that, but changing the original numbers no.

There should be numbers for solo and multiplayer.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Hungry French said:

I think it was a bad idea to release DST. Initially, the developers wanted to make multiplayer as a paid DLC for DS, but in the end they made DST, which divided the DS fandom into 2 parts and the developers closed the existence of a real solo game.
There should be 2 modes singleplayer and multiplayer. Technically, singleplayer exists, but it differs from multiplayer only in that there cannot be more than 1 person in the game, and that is... strange... Hp scaling... If it should be, then it's global.

Primary focus ?
Klei never thinks about solo players. Here's how many changes in 8 years can you remember in DST that will balance the game for solo? I don't remember any of them.
They should pay attention to solo at least a LITTLE BIT.
Really. I'm not talking about generation, modified behavior for solo bosses, not shards world.
For 8 years, The Lazy Deserter has not performed its functions in solo.
 But they could at least make hp for solo play in 8 YEARS.  
As a last resort, they could at least write down what hp bosses and creatures would have if they were in DS.
However, there is an official hp solo in the game files for :
Deer : 350 hp ( 700 multiplayer )
Grassgator :  500 hp ( 1000 multiplayer )

And. 

Marbatross : 2500 hp ( 5000 multiplayer )
Ancient Sentrypede : 400 hp ( 1200 multiplayer )

You're complaining about health primarly. First of all, more health on mobs is not directly tied to difficulty, it is actually tied secondarily to your ability to dodge and kite enemies. I can kite a beefalo or koalefant without armor because I know I can dodge them pretty easily since I only have to do it 2 or 3 times. When fighting a bunch of spiders, I better use an armor, since yellow ones can't be stun and fought at the same time as the black ones, so it opens a window for me to get hit. Smart is to use an armor. When it comes to dragonfly, you're basically fighting a faster chasing beefalo, then spiders with fire, then the beefalo again. I can solo dragonfly with Wes and no armor, but I can also solo dfly with walls blocking larvae, marble suits and pierogies. The only thing health changes is the amount of mistakes you can possibly make in a fight. 

You can simply use the adaptive health mod and make the game easier for you, go ahead. Or you can adapt yourself to the situation and actually try to learn how to fight these bosses if you want their loot.

And if you don't wanna fight them just blow them up with gunpowder, make them fight each other or enable rifts and blow them with brightshade bombs. Double damage characters exist too btw.

[Hungry French]

5 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

You're complaining about health primarly. First of all, more health on mobs is not directly tied to difficulty, it is actually tied secondarily to your ability to dodge and kite enemies. I can kite a beefalo or koalefant without armor because I know I can dodge them pretty easily since I only have to do it 2 or 3 times. When fighting a bunch of spiders, I better use an armor, since yellow ones can't be stun and fought at the same time as the black ones, so it opens a window for me to get hit. Smart is to use an armor. When it comes to dragonfly, you're basically fighting a faster chasing beefalo, then spiders with fire, then the beefalo again. I can solo dragonfly with Wes and no armor, but I can also solo dfly with walls blocking larvae, marble suits and pierogies. The only thing health changes is the amount of mistakes you can possibly make in a fight.

You can simply use the adaptive health mod and make the game easier for you, go ahead. Or you can adapt yourself to the situation and actually try to learn how to fight these bosses if you want their loot.

And if you don't wanna fight them just blow them up with gunpowder, make them fight each other or enable rifts and blow them with brightshade bombs. Double damage characters exist too btw.

Primary because asking for something more from Klei... Too cocky.
The unofficial solo hp mod. He's not bad, but he's changing things that shouldn't be changing. As an example, it reduces Worms hp to 450, which is wrong, because in DS they had 900 hp.And overall, the balance is not the best... Some bosses and creatures have too low hp...
Hp determines how boring the fight will be. If the hp is too high, the boss fight will be too long.
You can even remember lore. Do you seriously think that ToadStool is almost 20 times more resilient than Bearger despite the fact that they have approximately the same body size? Be Queen on the background of Bearger - shorty. And Dragon Fly has become 10 times more resilient for no reason.

15 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

You're complaining about health primarly. First of all, more health on mobs is not directly tied to difficulty, it is actually tied secondarily to your ability to dodge and kite enemies. I can kite a beefalo or koalefant without armor because I know I can dodge them pretty easily since I only have to do it 2 or 3 times. When fighting a bunch of spiders, I better use an armor, since yellow ones can't be stun and fought at the same time as the black ones, so it opens a window for me to get hit. Smart is to use an armor. When it comes to dragonfly, you're basically fighting a faster chasing beefalo, then spiders with fire, then the beefalo again. I can solo dragonfly with Wes and no armor, but I can also solo dfly with walls blocking larvae, marble suits and pierogies. The only thing health changes is the amount of mistakes you can possibly make in a fight. 

You can simply use the adaptive health mod and make the game easier for you, go ahead. Or you can adapt yourself to the situation and actually try to learn how to fight these bosses if you want their loot.

And if you don't wanna fight them just blow them up with gunpowder, make them fight each other or enable rifts and blow them with brightshade bombs. Double damage characters exist too btw.

Health primarily. Because it's too dreamy to ask Klei for real global singleplayer changes...
High hp makes fights too long and boring because of it.
You can even remember lore. Do you seriously think that ToadStool is almost 20 times more resilient than Bearger despite the fact that they have approximately the same body size? Be Queen on the background of Bearger - shorty. And Dragon Fly has become 10 times more resilient for no reason.

[Swiyss]

50 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

Primary because asking for something more from Klei... Too cocky.
The unofficial solo hp mod. He's not bad, but he's changing things that shouldn't be changing. As an example, it reduces Worms hp to 450, which is wrong, because in DS they had 900 hp.And overall, the balance is not the best... Some bosses and creatures have too low hp...
Hp determines how boring the fight will be. If the hp is too high, the boss fight will be too long.
You can even remember lore. Do you seriously think that ToadStool is almost 20 times more resilient than Bearger despite the fact that they have approximately the same body size? Be Queen on the background of Bearger - shorty. And Dragon Fly has become 10 times more resilient for no reason.

Health primarily. Because it's too dreamy to ask Klei for real global singleplayer changes...
High hp makes fights too long and boring because of it.
You can even remember lore. Do you seriously think that ToadStool is almost 20 times more resilient than Bearger despite the fact that they have approximately the same body size? Be Queen on the background of Bearger - shorty. And Dragon Fly has become 10 times more resilient for no reason.

You're not gonna convince anyone with these arguments.

[Hungry French]

16 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

You're not gonna convince anyone with these arguments.

Сonvince ?  What do you mean?

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Hungry French said:

Сonvince ?  What do you mean?

Seriously? Toadstool is not buffed enough? C'mon. He's atleast 10 times more resistant looking than bearger.

[Hungry French]

4 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Seriously? Toadstool is not buffed enough? C'mon. He's atleast 10 times more resistant looking than bearger.

They are the same size.

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, Hungry French said:

They are the same size.

See why this discussion is pointless and you're not gonna get anything with these weird arguments? Yeah, they're the same size, and the alchemy engine is a metal ball that catches on fire while soaking wet, so what?

[Hungry French]

Just now, Swiyss said:

See why this discussion is pointless and you're not gonna get anything with there weird arguments? Yeah, they're the same size, and the alchemy engine is a metal ball that catches on fire while soaking wet, so what?

Some people just attribute literally everything to lore. Even hp creatures. And then you see that bosses who are 2 times smaller than others have many times less HP.
Klei increased hp even for Merms. And they, in turn, do not differ much in lore and have an equal war without winners.

13 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

See why this discussion is pointless and you're not gonna get anything with there weird arguments? Yeah, they're the same size, and the alchemy engine is a metal ball that catches on fire while soaking wet, so what?

Clay needs to remember that solo players exist. That's all.