On Reviled Cheese and Player Freedom

[DegenerateFurry]

31 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I am the admin of the speedrun community and I have never in my more than 1 year of managing the leaderboards met a single speedrunner who thinks cheeses should be patched

I'm using the term "speedrunner" when I should probably be saying "boss rusher". I'm talking about the people who'll tell you to "git gud" when you criticize a boss's design - those were the exact people who were happy when the lure plant cheese for Fuelweaver got patched.

[benfroyobro9381]

23 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

You can't even put bridges in the Atrium, Labyrinth and Archives lmao. This whole bridge just forces people to do the boring tentapillar killing yet again.

"but I don't think they've completely satisfied players who find getting to the Fuelweaver fight tedious."

They're a good idea but they need finer execution. 

[Anis5240]

10 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said:

They're a good idea

Yes they were in the beta, but for this update Klei INTENTIONALLY put the code to NOT ALLOW bridges placed in those places. So we're simply back to square one.

[Bumber64]

3 hours ago, Anis5240 said:

Because apparently for those "elitists", cheese invalidates their "style" of brute-forcing their way through the game. They forgot how pig and varg farms work the same way as this FW pillar cheese or any other cheese. Especially pig farms, which had been around since early DS days.

FW is supposed to be a badass, though. He's supposed to have tremendous shadow power, yet can somehow be convinced to sit in time out while you spank him. Even if he's bound to the arena, he should hypothetically be able to call upon all of the shadows in the caves to attack you and bring about the end of the world. He could try smacking the obstruction with his bony fist if nothing else. That's what's wrong with pillar cheese.

Pigs and vargs are weak and dumb by comparison. (And the varg farm is actually works on the fact that it's calling for outside help.)

The problem with void walking is that you don't have wings or hover boots (i.e., this one's fine if Klei added an item, though Klei probably wants you to do their maze first). If falling into the void doesn't kill you, it shouldn't cause Toadstool a heart attack. I've never seen a bee go through a maze when they could fly over. CK has claws, but won't smack bees.

In summary, for me it's primarily an immersion issue. (Toadstool bridge one-shot is just terrible regardless, though. It's too easy to pull off and skips the fight entirely. Bosses not fighting back, generally.)

8 hours ago, Maxposting said:

I am not that person, though I'd like to discuss this with them.

I presume the argument would be along the lines of bosses being on a cooldown, and someone keeps cheesing the fight before you ever get a chance to participate.

Another is that the janky nature of some cheese could reflect poorly on the quality of the game, and some potential players would avoid buying DST by reputation. Going out of your way to cheese something is not quite as bad as Cyberpunk 2077's reputation with cars, however.

The first car sank into the ground. The second sank into the ground. The third caught fire, fell from the sky, and then sank into the ground. But the fourth stayed on its tires. And that's the car you're going to get, lad!

[Anis5240]

The point is, this whole cheese thing shouldn't even be an argument in the first place. It's a goddamn sandbox game. Do whatever the hell you want in your world. No one is ever going to judge the stupid stuff you did.

If you have this "noble" intention of not using said cheese, then simply DON'T USE IT. SIMPLE AS THAT. Players will ALWAYS FIND new ways to do automations, and you can't stop them all.

[RozeMeteor]

This tread is depressing, like what's the point of it ? everyone know that nobody will agree neither hear other opnions on the matter independent of which side you suport, it's always the same spin adding nothing substantial and only functioning to scratch others ego, i go with the sentiment of playing the way you want simply because nobody is being gutted for it.

[goblinball]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

FW is supposed to be a badass, though. He's supposed to have tremendous shadow power, yet can somehow be convinced to sit in time out while you spank him. Even if he's bound to the arena, he should hypothetically be able to call upon all of the shadows in the caves to attack you and bring about the end of the world. He could try smacking the obstruction with his bony fist if nothing else. That's what's wrong with pillar cheese.

 

I understand what you’re saying. I agree that cheesing fw is not nearly as intense, exciting, or fun as fighting him normally (not to say he’s a perfect fight, far from it), and it doesn’t make sense lore-wise. But you just gotta let ppl play how they want man. I know it’s really tough to understand, I know that it doesn’t make sense but some ppl just have different priorities.

And no, lore is never a good reason to get in the way of ppl’s gameplay or to patch out stuff like this. The ppl cheesing fw don’t care about the lore anyways. They’ve already broken the game, they’re just here to have fun. You might think he’s badass, but you can’t force other ppl to think the same and get emotionally invested in the fw fight.

[Bumber64]

57 minutes ago, goblinball said:

And no, lore is never a good reason to get in the way of ppl’s gameplay or to patch out stuff like this.

It's not good gameplay either, though. They're doing it to skip fighting. Holding F to win isn't engaging. BS staff can make the fight easier, but you'll still be attacked.

The reward for beating FW is, of course, mainly access to more stuff for fighting. So why do it to begin with?

[Gashzer]

If only we had a debuff item to optionally nerf AFW that is both lorefriendly and will fill that "cheese" itch people want, without abusing the games buggy pathfinding.

If only we had this item to solve all the conflict on the forums by appeasing both sides!

Oh wait we do! 

Introducing the glorious Moonlight Shackle!!!

 

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/158295-moonlight-shackle-new-celestial-altar-craft-suggestion-afw-nerf/

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:01 PM, grm9 said:

no, figuring a cheese set up or how to use a bug for getting an advantage from it out often requires more thought in comparison to fighting the boss with out cheese and god mode practically doesn't require any thought

Exploit: Build a gate next to void (because you saw it from someone else), walk to afw, type /rescue into chat (because someone else adviced you so)
Intended mechanics: Figure out how to defeat giant tentacle, figure out how crawl the Atrium without dying (requires managing sanity, hp, light, durabilities, sometimes even wetness/body heat on an intermediate level)

How does void walking require more thought? Yes, I cherry-picked this example, but still...

The problem is, going through too many obstacles eventually gets stale, so you would rather cheat around them.

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said:

Exploit: Build a gate next to void (because you saw it from someone else), walk to afw, type /rescue into chat (because someone else adviced you so)

that's why i said "figure out" instead of "ask some one or search for it", i meant figuring a cheese set up out on your own instead of looking for a thing that some one already figured out

[Anis5240]

1 minute ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said:

going through too many obstacles eventually gets stale, so you would rather cheat around them.

Well that's the basic premise behind all the cheese strategies anyway. People got bored and lazy to do the same thing over and over, so they devised a way (often a one-time big investment) to make subsequent visits easier. Surely you've known about that famous Bill Gates quote, where he'd rather hire a lazy man for work because that man will find creative yet quick ways to do the job.

Boredom leads to creativity, and that is not bad at all.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

It's not good gameplay either, though. They're doing it to skip fighting. Holding F to win isn't engaging. BS staff can make the fight easier, but you'll still be attacked.

The reward for beating FW is, of course, mainly access to more stuff for fighting. So why do it to begin with?

Actually… the reward for beating FuelWeaver for the first time ever is unlocking your characters affinity perks on their Skill Tree and depending on whose skill tree it is- those can be some really good perks your missing out on.

Also, killing him unlocks brand new gameplay content, and I’m not just talking about the “final final boss” no- This unlocks new weather effects, new things happening in the game world (like ponds being blocked off by Nitre formations thanks to acid rain effect) and new mobs.

Basically- Klei locked what would’ve been New game+ or a Paid DLC expansion- Behind needing to kill an annoying end game boss.

So no, the reward for killing FW isn’t to unlock more tools to fight with, while that is a great incentive the main reason you’ll want to fight him is to open up affinities & rift stuff.

That said… exploits and cheeses that are commonly used by the forum community (let’s be honest mostly just folks on PC..) Prevent the fights from ever being given proper feedback or improvement suggestions.

Because instead of making it more fun or easier to do or whatever- People are far too happy using lureplant and void walk cheese to skip figuring out what they HATE about the fight and would like to have changes to. 

[Anis5240]

15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Prevent the fights from ever being given proper feedback or improvement suggestions.

what

you know plenty of players like doing Fuelweaver the legit way, right? Those who do the cheese strat are again, lazy. They could be bored after doing the same fight over and over, and just feeling wanting to be on the sidelines for once. Automation-based farms like pig, bunnymen and varg farm are regularly used by long-term players who want a quick way to get the loot without endangering themselves.

Just because you see people here using cheese, doesn't mean EVERYONE HERE or elsewhere all use cheese too.

[Mike23Ua]

23 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

what

you know plenty of players like doing Fuelweaver the legit way, right? Those who do the cheese strat are again, lazy. They could be bored after doing the same fight over and over, and just feeling wanting to be on the sidelines for once. Automation-based farms like pig, bunnymen and varg farm are regularly used by long-term players who want a quick way to get the loot without endangering themselves.

Just because you see people here using cheese, doesn't mean EVERYONE HERE or elsewhere all use cheese too.

Your forgetting what type of game Klei has maybe unintentionally shoe-horned DST into being.

DST is a game that has a TON of Obscure mechanics you have to search up on Wikipedia pages to get full enjoyment out of all that the game has to offer and it’s also a game that rewards its players with Twitch drop skins for watching twitch streamers playing the game.

However- A lot of the Info on those Wiki Pages and a lot of the streams you can watch, often utilize these bugs, glitches or exploits which sets a precedent that “this is the way” (or at least the fastest most effective method)

I use to very specifically watch Tv shows like G4Tv so I can watch gameplay of video games that may or may not be of interest to me prior to buying them for myself..

But when it comes to DST,  You would be hard pressed to find a Twitch/YouTube streamer who is not using bugs, glitches, exploits or a ton of mods that aren’t actually part of the game.

It IS A Harmful hive-minded like Mindset, and I for one am personally joyful whenever Klei patches or removes the most commonly used glitches and exploits, so that (fingers crossed) it improves the experience of the game for the betterment of its players.

[Mysterious box]

On 9/16/2024 at 7:34 AM, HellHeater said:

Subjective, I do agree with it.

Subjective, I absolutely do not agree with it.

Klei don't do things for free. If the spend money on "fixing" cheeses, they won't be able to do content updates as much. I'd, along with many people, definitely prefer them giving us a new boss or a skill tree instead of fixing some obscure strategy that affects absolutely no one negatively.

Does this game ****ing look like The Sims to you? Do you not realize how painfully expensive this would be for a feature that Webber, Wortox and Wurt mains are incapable of giving a crap about? Klei doesn't have infinite money or workforce. Such a feature would be so irrelevant in the 99% of the gameplay while taking up ridiculous amounts of computational resources. You got pigmen detecting food, detecting walls, pathfinding, realising there are no valid paths (already have these so far), detecting that a straight line to the food intersects A wall and worst of all, detecting EACH OTHER and ACTIONS of each other. Which is just unrealistic. DST's optimization is already in a "could be better" state. This would make even singleplayer unplayable. For example, originally mobs in Minecraft were meant to run away from exploding creepers but that idea was discarded because the game lagged the hell out. The reason being, every mob constantly checked if there was a creeper nearby and if it was about to explode and drained the computers resources like a... drain. Few mobs detecting each other would be somewhat ok but many pig farms have at least 10 pigs each of them checking for each other (45 interactions every n frames) and what they are doing. 

TLDR: pigmen interact mean you lag

Ever heard of hoiks?

Dear god, I can feel myself becoming Mike23Ua. I need to get off forums immediately.

It's not up to you to decide who is negatively effected by cheese or who would care about improved mob habits I know many others who care about game amposhere would and even then we've already seen how cheese can conflict with game design quality of life for the average player with the bridge situation which be real only truely negatively effected veterans.

I don't see a good reason not to fix incorporate exploits into game mechanics so long as it doesn't trivialize content which seems to be where the devs also put their foots down which I think is a good stance. Remove exploits that break mechanics like boss fights and officiallize more creative strats i.e. bridges and ancient guardian. Basically what I'm saying is patching exploits should used as a map for how to improve the experience for the average player.

I will say I don't hate exploits but I'm more than willing to sacrifice them to improve the health of the game. Also even if noone says anything about then you never know when they'll eventually conflict with their future design and be removed without compensation because there wasn't enough discussion about why they were used.

[Castiliano]

"then simply don't use it" is the dumbiest argument ever

It's not about using or not using. It's about not wanting to play a buggy game, which any sane person shouldn't want to.

 

[Anis5240]

53 minutes ago, Castiliano said:

It's about not wanting to play a buggy game, which any sane person shouldn't want to.

Hah, you'd be so hard-pressed to find a good game that isn't "buggy" these days. Again, exploits of everything in the codes will ALWAYS HAPPEN, and that's not a bad thing. Again, why should we remove creativity from this sandbox game??????? You see the countless varieties of ANR boss fights and now you just want a streamlined way to do so??????

That's extra boring. Like mind-numbing boring.

[Castiliano]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:29 PM, Anis5240 said:

Hah, you'd be so hard-pressed to find a good game that isn't "buggy" these days. Again, exploits of everything in the codes will ALWAYS HAPPEN, and that's not a bad thing. Again, why should we remove creativity from this sandbox game??????? You see the countless varieties of ANR boss fights and now you just want a streamlined way to do so??????

That's extra boring. Like mind-numbing boring.

Bug is not synonymous with fun. You put this as a fallacy. They can adapt what wasn't fun and made people use exploits.
There are millions of bad games out there full of bugs from developers who don't care, which definitely doesn't seem to be the case with this one.

[MasterDos]

I sometimes stream DST on Twitch. I play without mods and do not use obvious exploits (such as walking in the void and blocking bosses). Yes, I do not mind building a wall along the lava lakes, but it does not always help)

I do not like it when another smart guy comes to the stream and advises me to go to the atrium through the void, or block Klaus's reindeer with signs, or block the Ancient Fuelweaver with anything, or drag the Toadstool away and also block it with something, or make a Volt Goat farm and exploit their respawn mechanics, or make a Varg farm, and so on.

No, on the contrary, I want to independently (once again) find the necessary giant tentacle leading to the atrium. I do not want to block Klaus's reindeer but fight the boss fully. I do not want to suffer and drag Toadstool away and then block it. And I'm not against farms, but for me they ruin the exploration and hunting element of the game. So I'd rather look for wargs and volt goats myself.

And every time I have to explain why I don't make free farms or use exploits)

And another one of the most common questions I get asked in the Twitch chat: "Why don't you use a backpack?".
In fact, I do use it, but very rarely, to carry a lot of things or when I'm gardening. And most of the time I wear armor or seasonal clothes. Simply because I think the backpack is overrated and I don't see the point in wearing it all the time.

This just goes to show that everyone can play a sandbox game however they want. And that's exactly how a person feels the game world. The moment when you get into the Constant is your personal moment and everyone has their own Constant.

[DegenerateFurry]

4 hours ago, Castiliano said:

"then simply don't use it" is the dumbiest argument ever

It's not about using or not using. It's about not wanting to play a buggy game, which any sane person shouldn't want to.

 

I guess everyone who plays games is insane, then. I'll see you all in the asylum next week!

[goblinball]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

It's not good gameplay either, though. They're doing it to skip fighting. Holding F to win isn't engaging.

Psssstt hey hey I already addressed this in my original reply

 

11 hours ago, goblinball said:

you just gotta let ppl play how they want man. I know it’s really tough to understand, I know that it doesn’t make sense but some ppl just have different priorities.

I don’t think cheesing fw is fun either, but if it wasn’t fun for other ppl then they wouldn’t do it. 

[SilverSpoon]

6 hours ago, Castiliano said:

It's not about using or not using. It's about not wanting to play a buggy game, which any sane person shouldn't want to.

Now I understand why sane people go outside and touch grass instead of wasting their lives playing games, Thank you very much.

Spoiler

If the bug only happen when reproduced, why don't players who don't like it follow the "then simply don't use it" rule?

 

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, goblinball said:

Psssstt hey hey I already addressed this in my original reply

I don’t think cheesing fw is fun either, but if it wasn’t fun for other ppl then they wouldn’t do it. 

They're not doing it because they think it's fun. They're doing it to skip something they don't think is fun. Subtle difference.

You can't experience the gameplay you skipped playing, fun or not.

[Maxposting]

7 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I guess everyone who plays games is insane, then. I'll see you all in the asylum next week!

What even is your point by saying this? That games always have prominent bugs and shouldn't be fixed? 

I just have to ask, why did you make this thread if you never intended to listen others out in the first place?

The very first post tries to poke holes in logic of not supporting exploits (see: my distinction between what-is considered exploit and farm) by presenting farms and then urges to reconsider "our collective stance" on unmentioned exploits. Yet you have already made up your mind about what this "collective stance" should be. This isn't a talking ground, it's just arguing without an actual final point.

There wasn't much of a "collective stance" against exploits in the first place. Rather just separate people who agree or disagree on what should be done with the exploits. Clumping everyone (you disagree with) into a monolithic group doesn't serve anything, not even you. You yourself ended up perceiving others as a homogeneous hivemind of contradicting ideas, which never was the case.