On Reviled Cheese and Player Freedom

[Bumber64]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's the problem, uncompromising doesn't mean any specific thing so using it as an argument's pointless

It's a little different when comparing to a game that started out development as pure creative mode. Minecraft never aspired to be hard.

[JustExo]

Erm, akshually, everything is an intentional feature until it's patched out by the devs, so there's no such thing as cheese or exploiting glitches

[Maxposting]

33 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I've not seen a single person explain it beyond claiming that "if anyone can do it, everyone will do it", which is bunk nonsense.

How is this nonsense? Certainly not everyone will use it, however the game is still unbalanced without intention.

I have seen myself and others use exploits and cheats just because they were present in the game. They do make the game easier by breaking intended balance. (I no longer use cheats as it's just more rewarding.)

Not everyone has a will to not use farms or exploits (as humans are rooted in physical nature), especially when they give an advantage (be it faster or easier kill). Keep in mind this "advantage" is slightly hypothetical in nature, as it's being considered how the game would play out with or without the exploit used, not as a direct competitive advantage. Consider it an observed "dirty advantage for yourself". I felt like I had to clarify this here.

[DegenerateFurry]

6 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

How is this nonsense? Certainly not everyone will use it, however the game is still unbalanced without intention.

I have seen myself and others use exploits and cheats just because they were present in the game. They do make the game easier by breaking intended balance. (I no longer use cheats as it's just more rewarding.)

Not everyone has a will to not use farms or exploits (as humans are rooted in physical nature), especially when they give an advantage (be it faster or easier kill). Keep in mind this "advantage" is slightly hypothetical in nature, as it's being considered how the game would play out with or without the exploit used, not as a direct competitive advantage. Consider it an observed "dirty advantage for yourself". I felt like I had to clarify this here.

The reason it's nonsense is that it doesn't explain how it negatively impacts anyone. "If you don't like it, don't use it" is a good argument because the scary exploit can't hurt you if you don't actively welcome it into your world. Also, if people can't stop themselves from grinding for a while to make a farm, that's their problem? The lacking self-control of some hypothetical, likely imagined minority of the playerbase who want to not use exploits, but are so possessed by the demon of impulse that they cannot do otherwise is not a problem anyone should concern themselves with.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

How is this nonsense? Certainly not everyone will use it, however the game is still unbalanced without intention.

I have seen myself and others use exploits and cheats just because they were present in the game. They do make the game easier by breaking intended balance. (I no longer use cheats as it's just more rewarding.)

Not everyone has a will to not use farms or exploits (as humans are rooted in physical nature), especially when they give an advantage (be it faster or easier kill). Keep in mind this "advantage" is slightly hypothetical in nature, as it's being considered how the game would play out with or without the exploit used, not as a direct competitive advantage. Consider it an observed "dirty advantage for yourself". I felt like I had to clarify this here

removing some thing because of some one being unable to prevent themselves from using it even though they don't like using it seems nonsensical

i still don't know why do people ask for removing bugs but don't ask for removing all characters that're better in comparison to the character that they're playing as, considering that same logic applies

[Maxposting]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

"If you don't like it, don't use it" is a good argument because the scary exploit can't hurt you if you don't actively welcome it into your world

It's not and there isn't much to try explaining if you have a closed mind.

If you want to understand where I'm coming from, reread the previous post, otherwise dismiss this post as we won't get anywhere.

[DegenerateFurry]

8 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

It's not and there isn't much to try explaining if you have a closed mind.

If you want to understand where I'm coming from, reread the previous post, otherwise dismiss this post as we won't get anywhere.

I mean, I reread your post, but you still haven't explained how the existence of something, even something out-of-the-way like statue farms, obligates you to use it. I say tell me why or admit to yourself that your argument has no foundation in reality.

[Maxposting]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

something out-of-the-way like statue farms

Personally, for me statue farms don't fall into the exploits-which-should-be-fixed category as they are time-consuming to set up and there are destructive mobs which destroy said statues.

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

admit to yourself that your argument has no foundation in reality

That is besides the point. How a person feels about something and contradictorily interacts with said thing is real. People often do not view themselves rooted in actual reality and believe they have a metaphysical choice without any factual proof. Does a "foundation in reality" genuinely matter to this?

"Just don't use it" is just a form of "what about it" as it just dismisses a valid observation and doesn't give anything else in return for this.

[DegenerateFurry]

12 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

Personally, for me statue farms don't fall into the exploits-which-should-be-fixed category as they are time-consuming to set up and there are destructive mobs which destroy said statues.

That is besides the point. How a person feels about something and contradictorily interacts with said thing is real. People often do not view themselves rooted in actual reality and believe they have a metaphysical choice without any factual proof. Does a "foundation in reality" genuinely matter to this?

"Just don't use it" is just a form of "what about it" as it just dismisses a valid observation and doesn't give anything else in return for this.

Okay, I'm gonna need you to rephrase that in plain English. You currently sound like you're arguing that objective reality is irrelevant and I don't want to assume I'm correct on that interpretation.

[Wormboi]

2 hours ago, RozeMeteor said:

So we are here all over angain, i wonder how much time this will take to get locked 

The forums should become lactose intolerance for a couple of days

[Maxposting]

Just now, DegenerateFurry said:

Okay, I'm gonna need you to rephrase that in plain English. You currently sound like you're arguing that objective reality is irrelevant.

My point was that your insult was irrelevant to this discussion and had nothing to do with it.

What a person feels and actually does is sometimes contradicting and claiming there is "no foundation in reality" is reductive at best.

[DegenerateFurry]

5 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

My point was that your insult was irrelevant to this discussion and had nothing to do with it.

What a person feels and actually does is sometimes contradicting and claiming there is "no foundation in reality" is reductive at best.

I'm still not getting what you're saying. I didn't mean it as an insult? I was just calling you out because you kept refusing to give me the coveted "why" that I can never find from people who argue that exploits are somehow detrimental even to the people who don't use them. I thought your point was that some people just can't stop themselves from using them, but then you changed to whatever this is when I said those people should deal with their own problems, and also that they might not really exist.

[Maxposting]

32 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

people who argue that exploits are somehow detrimental even to the people who don't use them

I am not that person, though I'd like to discuss this with them.

There is nothing else to say, really.

edit: you edited in this tidbit right at the end as i sent my message (and i overlooked it):

Quote

and also that they might not really exist.

i guess i don't exist whooahh im so spooky and reality-bending, very scary indeed. 
I have already explained my viewpoint and "why", however I have also said you wouldn't understand where I'm coming from without an open mind. Toodles!

edit2: okay i was reading back to back (silly me, checking if I made an error!)
and you edited an entire paragraph from a short sentence in the first post on this page, the problem is, I didn't see that edit (the original post is quotes in its entirety in my post below) and then you most likely assumed I read it while I didn't! My bad.
Reading your post now, we'd butt heads over that anyways, as it's just... wrong?  Final Toodles!

[DegenerateFurry]

1 minute ago, Maxposting said:

I am not that person, though I'd like to discuss this with them.

There is nothing else to say, really.

I'm just gonna take your word on that last bit, because I can't tell what you're even arguing.

[Well-met]

more complaining about bugs getting fixed

[MasterDos]

Any features that are in the game are something that is ready to be used. This cannot be denied. It's just that some players have come up with the idea that it looks "unfair" and prefer to constantly talk about it on the forum.

On the other hand, developers sometimes began to fix such tactics. But some "bugs" or "game mechanics" can really seem unfair. For example: walking through the void in caves and skipping the fight with the Ancient Fuelweaver by blocking it and killing it from a distance. Such things disrupt the flow of the plot and quest lines. It is easier to kill the Ancient Fuelweaver with a console command. And in fact, I am for the developers to prevent such game mechanics.

In turn, I am indifferent to the examples of "cheezes" given in this post. This should not be prohibited or should not be perceived by other players as something bad. For example, I always build a wall in the fight with the Dragon Fly, just to avoid messing with its larvae. But I never blocked Klaus's reindeer, because then this fight would become uninteresting for me.
But I personally don't like farming. If I need silk in the future, for example, I'll just put up spider cocoons and come to them and kill them in the open, because it's more interesting for me)

Everyone has the right to play the way they want!

[Cali SS]

I bet the forums are going to go nuts when animation canceling get fixed, surely that is an unintended feature as well.

[DegenerateFurry]

14 minutes ago, Cali SS said:

I bet the forums are going to go nuts when animation canceling get fixed, surely that is an unintended feature as well.

Yeah, it's always funny to me when some of the players here who are clearly speedrunners advocate for "cheeses" to be patched when we all know damn well that they're animation cancelling every hit they can manage. 

[Mike23Ua]

Was this thread created in frustration of void walking being patched? Because yeah that WAS AN EXPLOIT, you were glitching your character “Out of Bounds” and the rest of the games content was dumbfounded and could not interact with you (Aka Bats can Fly, if Void Walking was intended bats would fly out into the void to attack you)

Theres a Difference between fun strategies/Cheeses (such as using a billion Bee-Mines or Gunpowder which BOTH are in the games Weapons tab and intended to be used as Weapons.)

And using clearly broken exploits like Void Walking or getting a big scary boss stuck on a weak easy to kill spider nest or lureplant that you the player can destroy in a few hits.

[JustExo]

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Theres a Difference between fun strategies/Cheeses (such as using a billion Bee-Mines or Gunpowder which BOTH are in the games Weapons tab and intended to be used as Weapons.)

And using clearly broken exploits like Void Walking or getting a big scary boss stuck on a weak easy to kill spider nest or lureplant that you the player can destroy in a few hits.

I think it's worth questioning why people choose to make use of mechanics and exploits like this tbh

When it comes to things like void walking, a large part of why people do it after awhile is because they've simply done the intended method enough to become fed up with doing it over and over again, so they'd rather skip the entire process in order to make the process faster/easier on their end, which I think is a valid feeling to have.

[goblinball]

59 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Theres a Difference between fun strategies/Cheeses (such as using a billion Bee-Mines or Gunpowder which BOTH are in the games Weapons tab and intended to be used as Weapons.)

And using clearly broken exploits like Void Walking or getting a big scary boss stuck on a weak easy to kill spider nest or lureplant that you the player can destroy in a few hits.

There’s a difference between things I think are fun and things I don’t think are fun

you can think cheese stuff isn’t fun and that’s fine (I’m mixed, I don’t  think stuff like fw cheese is very fun but other stuff like dfly walls I’m ok with) but I simply don’t understand why anyone cares about this at all. Like who cares that someone cheesed a boss? Who cares that ppl could void walk or farm shadow pieces or use walls against dragonfly? Who cares???? If you don’t enjoy the cheese then just don’t use it, and if you do enjoy the cheese then great! Use it to your hearts content. 
How is this ruining the game for anyone involved?

[Anis5240]

8 minutes ago, goblinball said:

How is this ruining the game for anyone involved?

Because apparently for those "elitists", cheese invalidates their "style" of brute-forcing their way through the game. They forgot how pig and varg farms work the same way as this FW pillar cheese or any other cheese. Especially pig farms, which had been around since early DS days.

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Yeah, it's always funny to me when some of the players here who are clearly speedrunners advocate for "cheeses" to be patched when we all know damn well that they're animation cancelling every hit they can manage. 

I am the admin of the speedrun community and I have never in my more than 1 year of managing the leaderboards met a single speedrunner who thinks cheeses should be patched

[benfroyobro9381]

My take: Any method that gets you to the end credits(or in dst's case.... never) is a valid method for any singleplayer/noncompetitive games.This is a noncompetitive cooperative sandbox experience. The fun comes from being able to tackle a single problem with a variety of solutions.

If the method goes against Klei's vision or design, it is valid to be patched and removed. However, if that cheese was rampant because the other or intended way to tackle the situation was unfun, unintuitive, or boring, then there should be adjustments made besides or alongside removing said cheese. Void walking existed because no one liked traveling to the atrium to do Fuelweaver reruns. Bridges are a step in the right direction but I don't think they've completely satisfied players who find getting to the Fuelweaver fight tedious. 

[Anis5240]

21 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said:

Bridges are a step in the right direction

You can't even put bridges in the Atrium, Labyrinth and Archives lmao. This whole bridge just forces people to do the boring tentapillar killing yet again.