Comparing how long each survirvor has gone since substantial character changes. (With some future skill tree predictions)

[WenericMember]

With DLC survivors, skill trees and occasional bonus changes thrown in, survivors have had a complex history of changes.

Looking at their most recent changes though, reveals interesting patterns that could be used to reveal future skill trees.

So working backwards:

Survivors who received skill trees:

• Winona (June 2024, Staying Afloat, Skill tree)
• Wurt (June 2024, Staying Afloat, Skill tree)
• Wormwood (March 2024, Scrappy Scavengers, Skill tree QOL)
• Willow (March 2024, Scrappy Scavengers, Skill tree QOL)
• Wigfrid (March 2024, Scrappy Scavengers, Skill tree QOL)
• Woodie (July 2023, Skill Spotlight, Skill tree)
• Wolfgang (July 2023, Skill Spotlight, Skill tree)
• Wilson (February 2023, Character Refresh, Skill tree)

This is largely reiterating what everyone already knows. Now, for the character refreshes:

• Maxwell (November 2022, Character Refresh)
• Wickerbottom (July 2022, Character Refresh)
• Wortox (July 2022, Wickerbottom's Refresh, Character Refresh)
• Walter (July 2022, Wickerbottom's Refresh, QOL)
• WX-78 (April 2022, Character Refresh)
• Wanda (September 2021, DLC Character)
• Webber (June 2021, Character Refresh)
• Wes (April 2021, Character Refresh)

And now, the characters who have gone the longest without meaningful modifications to their gameplay...

• Walter (June 2020, DLC Character) [His QOL mentioned early was minor, so where he really is is up for debate]
• Wendy (March 2020, Character Refresh, Character Refresh)
• Warly (October 2019, Salty Dog, New Seasoning)

Wendy and Warly are over a year behind every other survivor in terms of their most recent major change. Walter too, if you don't count QOL in Wickerbottom's refresh.

So what does this mean for skill trees?

Well, most notably, the skill trees, as of so far REALLY favor the characters that have gone the longest without something new. Wolfgang is the only character to have received any changers after 2020, where Wigfrid got reworked and Wormwood got changes in RWYS. I don't think its a coincidence that Wortox, who got a mini rework in 2022, is the only one of the 2019 DLC survivors to not have recieved a skill tree as of yet.

Wolfgang was also stuck as his strengths were largely invalidated by rift content, and may have been pushed forward due to that. His skill tree is also the one with, other than Wilson's, with the least amount of new mechanics. Most of his skills are stat adjustments.

Due to this pattern, I think the next set of skill Trees will be Wendy & Webber, with Warly & Walter following soon after. Notably, all 4 of them are within the 5 oldest characters to recieve changes, while #4, Wes is a special case.

The skill trees thus far have followed loose pairings; Wormwood & Woody having obsessions with trees, Woody and Wolfgang being the traditionally masculine survivors, Wigfrid and Willow being the most impulsive survivors, and Winona and Wurt being the construction focused survivors. Wendy & Webber are probably the most commonly paired survivors, being the two original children, while Walter would likely have a degree of cooking experience due to scouting, matching with Warly.

The order of these pairs is honestly interchangeable though. While Walter and Warly have waited longer to receive anything substantially new, Wendy feels like the character that feels the most dated gameplay design, lacking any unique mechanics unrelated to Abigail's combat. I chose Wendy because a) copium and b) Warly and Walter are in less crowded archetypes, meaning a lack of skill tree hurts them less.

[Gashzer]

Wendy is much more accessible and straightforward with her playstyle and identity compared with Walter and Warly.

Walter is clearly designed to be a character that you play if you DONT want to tame a beefalo but want beefalo utility and to play using body armour over using a backpack since you have woby inventory. But that got lost in translation for the actual playerbase since too many Walter players go out of their way to tame an ornery beefalo anyway to get over his downside.... which defeats the purpose of the character if you ask me.

Warly has the most game changing downside of any character, being forced to eat only crockpot foods and needing to eat different foods. This is pretty intense for new players or even experienced players that don't depend on crockpot foods usually.

So I think Walter and Warly need their skilltrees first. And I think they both would vibe well in a animated short. Warly can make nice monster meat dishes for woby to get big for example.

[chirsg]

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

• Wendy (March 2020, Character Refresh, Character Refresh)

Wendy going so long without any modifications and still remaining the most played character in the game is nuts

[WenericMember]

10 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Wendy going so long without any modifications and still remaining the most played character in the game is nuts

Absolutely, I think it speaks to how rare and valuable cheap AOE/Taunt is that she's still that popular.

Even with it becoming more common with Woodie's  and Willow's skill trees, Wendy's ability to have it on demand is unparalleled.

It's also surprising because in my personal opinion, Wendy definitely feels like the most dated in game design by far. It's pretty much standard at this point that survivors have a pretty in depth set of Perks - Willow can absorb fires, cast spells and has Bernie, Maxwell has puppets, a trap, and an Ender chest, even pre skill tree Wigfrid had cheap weapons & armour to accompany her song, etc. Wendy literally just has Abigail. Pipspooks? Only usable to buff Abigail. Sisturn? Minor sanity aura, but almost entirely is for improving Abigail's regen. Even the hex, which is probably a phenomenally designed way to balance the 0.75 multiplier, requires abigail to be attacking.

And SHE'S STILL SOMEHOW MY FAVORITE CHARACTER TO PLAY.

I hope whenever she does get her skill tree they don't cheap out on her because she's popular, like they kinda did for Wolfgang. She'd be so much more enjoyable if she had perks that buffed her hex, allowed her to more effectively revive teammates (It will forever Irk me the Wendy didn't create the telltale heart), etc. I think she could also benefit from a secondary mechanic, like how Willow got Embers. Not to touch her combat, but to make Wendy rely on Abigail less to be a unique survivor.

Oh right, the main mechanic I'd want to giver her is the Ability to "Haunt" objects while alive like ghosts can, and then maybe throw on a few exclusive haunt effects to her for good measure.

45 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Wendy is much more accessible and straightforward with her playstyle and identity compared with Walter and Warly.

Walter is clearly designed to be a character that you play if you DONT want to tame a beefalo but want beefalo utility and to play using body armour over using a backpack since you have woby inventory. But that got lost in translation for the actual playerbase since too many Walter players go out of their way to tame an ornery beefalo anyway to get over his downside.... which defeats the purpose of the character if you ask me.

Warly has the most game changing downside of any character, being forced to eat only crockpot foods and needing to eat different foods. This is pretty intense for new players or even experienced players that don't depend on crockpot foods usually.

So I think Walter and Warly need their skilltrees first. And I think they both would vibe well in a animated short. Warly can make nice monster meat dishes for woby to get big for example.

As I said, you can make a convincing case for either, but IMO Wendy is a LOT further from modern Klei's character design which promotes a variety of perks (see the changes to Maxwell, Willow, Woodie, Wilson (albeit to a reduced extent), etc, along with comparing the first DLC character Wortox to his contemporaries Wanda and Walter).  She also has an incredibly awkward player/skill to strength curve that desperately needs fixing.

I also disagree with your comment on Warly. His impactful downside is the main draw of his character and shouldn't be toned back. Doing so would reduce my enjoyment of playing him. 

I personally would say Wendy needs the skill tree as much as Walter, but for completely different reasons and that both Warly and Webber don't urgently need them.

[Gashzer]

2 hours ago, WenericMember said:

As I said, you can make a convincing case for either, but IMO Wendy is a LOT further from modern Klei's character design which promotes a variety of perks (see the changes to Maxwell, Willow, Woodie, Wilson (albeit to a reduced extent), etc, along with comparing the first DLC character Wortox to his contemporaries Wanda and Walter).  She also has an incredibly awkward player/skill to strength curve that desperately needs fixing.

I also disagree with your comment on Warly. His impactful downside is the main draw of his character and shouldn't be toned back. Doing so would reduce my enjoyment of playing him. 

I personally would say Wendy needs the skill tree as much as Walter, but for completely different reasons and that both Warly and Webber don't urgently need them.

Well i wouldn't want Warlys downside directly removed or nerfed. But I would want him to get skills that makes farming and fishing faster plus boosting yields of food from them sources, this would indirectly help with his downside.

Boosting yield and duration of spiced dishes with more different kinds of spices.

As for better tracking/hunting and butcher/drying skills should be reserved for Walter as 2-3 skills on a branch.

Giving abigail the ability to possess mobs would be cool. Imagine having your own varg follower. This opens alot of options for diverse followers, wendy can have skills to boost abigail while she possesses mobs or skills to simply boost abigails regular form.

[chirsg]

5 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I also disagree with your comment on Warly. His impactful downside is the main draw of his character and shouldn't be toned back. Doing so would reduce my enjoyment of playing him. 

 

What did I say about Warly?

[WenericMember]

4 hours ago, chirsg said:

What did I say about Warly?

That was a response  to Gashzer, not you c:

[chincer]

walter has so much potential, his skill tree have many direction to go, i just hope it ends well for him, it has always bother me that the character with a "free beefalo" much rather tame one because it is the most optimal way of circumventing his downside, that would be like wanda preferring a darksword over her alarming clock.

wendy change history doesnt surprise me, she have remain strong in all the areas she was good at, straight forward and with options to be good for veterans

warly needs that skill tree as much as walter so i doubt they will pair them together for an update, but would be quite nice to get everyone to speed

[DegenerateFurry]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:33 AM, Gashzer said:

Well i wouldn't want Warlys downside directly removed or nerfed. But I would want him to get skills that makes farming and fishing faster plus boosting yields of food from them sources, this would indirectly help with his downside.

I'd accept Warly getting a bunch of new recipes (which would massively affect his gameplay loop, especially if any are high hunger and relatively available) or some boosts to his food production abilities. Warly getting a fishing branch in his skill tree would definitely fit since he was a naval chef and that means he's spent time at sea. 

However, if Warly gets easier food management in any way, I want his downside to actually be increased. Make his food memory four days instead of two. It could result from taking the perks that give you the really good dishes to represent Warly getting even pickier. The reason is that, as it stands, you can currently just alternate between tall scotch eggs, meatballs, and meaty stews to keep him fed forever, whereas if he had a four-day food memory, that wouldn't quite be enough and you'd actually need to supplement it with other recipes (I know because I've tested that on a modded character). 

On 8/8/2024 at 7:33 AM, Gashzer said:

Boosting yield and duration of spiced dishes with more different kinds of spices.

This one I feel is a certainty to see in Warly's skill tree. It's just kind of a no-brainer: perks that make his seasonings last longer and maybe a perk for a shadow seasoning and a lunar seasoning each. 

On 8/8/2024 at 7:33 AM, Gashzer said:

As for better tracking/hunting and butcher/drying skills should be reserved for Walter as 2-3 skills on a branch.

Hunt-related mechanics for Walter makes a lot of sense. Drying, sure, scouts like jerky and Warly can't eat it.
Butchering, absolutely not. Warly's attack line is "I'm also an accomplished butcher!", for crying out loud. Warly deserves to get a perk that increases the drop rate of non-guaranteed drops (such as volt goat horns, spider glands/silk, volt goat horns, pig skin, volt goat horns, and did I mention volt goat horns?) to represent his skill as a butcher.
Since Klei got a little more creative with some of Wigfrid's perk unlock requirements, maybe they could do this with Warly's butcher perk, too, and require you killing a certain number of certain mobs to progress it further? 25 spiders for the first tier (which increases uncommon drops by 50%,) 10 pigs for the second tier (which increases them by doubling their chance), and 5 volt goats for the third tier (which'd keep the same doubled chance and add in an additional smaller chance at getting two uncommon drops). It'd represent Warly learning where to strike mobs to minimize damage dealt to the usable bits.

[Gashzer]

39 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Hunt-related mechanics for Walter makes a lot of sense. Drying, sure, scouts like jerky and Warly can't eat it.
Butchering, absolutely not. Warly's attack line is "I'm also an accomplished butcher!", for crying out loud. Warly deserves to get a perk that increases the drop rate of non-guaranteed drops (such as volt goat horns, spider glands/silk, volt goat horns, pig skin, volt goat horns, and did I mention volt goat horns?) to represent his skill as a butcher.

Ah yeah that makes more sense, Warly getting an additional chance to obtain an extra pig skin or whatever sounds good.

With Walter focusing on hunting and drying, the main QoL i want to see in that department is being able to uncover suspicious dirt piles while riding big woby... such a pain to jump off her to uncover them. And yeah beefalo riders shouldn't get this QoL, you guys have already got too many QoL updates to beefalos including the recent upgraded salt lick.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Ah yeah that makes more sense, Warly getting an addition chance to obtain an extra pig skin or whatever sounds good.

With Walter focusing on hunting and drying, the main QoL i want to see in that department is being able to uncover suspicious dirt piles while riding big woby... such a pain to jump off her to uncover them. And yeah beefalo riders shouldn't get this QoL, you guys have already got too many QoL updates to beefalos including the recent upgraded salt lick.

 That'd for sure be fair. 

[grm9]

42 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And yeah beefalo riders shouldn't get this QoL

???

"make a minor inconvenience affect specifically them for no reason after making it not affect others"

making an action not work when on any mount except woby'll literally most likely require more effort in comparison to making an action work when on any mount because iirc there's currently no way to apply the only woby thing to an action through simply setting a variable, an argument or a value in a table to something except a function but you can apply the any mount thing to an action through that

[Captain_Rage]

Willow was nice and is still nice. The utility from Fireball makes for a more streamlined progression and provides leniency or an alternative to a few items. Guess that is a good thing. The way Ethereal Embers are acquired also gives you something more to do if you choose to use them. The fire-raiser skills feels satisfying to use in a few combat situations but also makes a few of the boss fights basically trivial, which is questionable (stand a screen away and cast Shadow Fire-Raiser when the Celestial Champion is in its final phase; pretty anti-climactic to say the least). It feels however nice to have "something OP" when rift bosses are attacking since they can be very unforgiving when caught off guard.

[Gashzer]

21 minutes ago, grm9 said:

???

"keep a minor inconvenience for them for no reason"

Well what is a survival game but a series of minor inconveniences?

And what are characters but different Wilson's that uniquely ignore different minor inconveniences?

I raise a ???? to your silly ???

[grm9]

Just now, Gashzer said:

Well what is a survival game but a series of minor inconveniences?

a game that you play for fun instead of minor inconveniences?

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

And what are characters but different Wilson's that uniquely ignore different minor inconveniences?

characters that change how you play the game and some times make it more fun?

[Gashzer]

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

a game that you play for fun instead of minor inconveniences?

characters that change how you play the game and some times make it more fun?

But how do they change the game? By removing minor inconveniences!

Let's make Walter have a unique strength in hunting and tracking... maybe make him able to selectively hunt for beefalo/volt goats/ koalafants.

Could even introduce unique mobs that only Walter and Woby can find like a over-fed gobbler which drops loads of berries.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

But how do they change the game? By removing minor inconveniences!

no, through allowing you to use different strats

[DegenerateFurry]

41 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no, through allowing you to use different strats

 For someone who's always going on and on about liking the most difficult and annoying parts of this game, you sure do seem to have a problem understanding the concept of characters having unique perks or downsides, which has been an integral part of Don't Starve since very early on. 
Let me explain it to you this way: Wilson has a perk that lets him turn certain materials into other materials. The one that lets him transmute meat into morsels or the other way around is particularly convenient, and it'd be great for some other characters like Wigfrid or Warly, but it's a Wilson thing, so only he can do it. That's what's being proposed with Walter being able to do hunts from atop his mount. 

[gaymime]

9 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 For someone who's always going on and on about liking the most difficult and annoying parts of this game, you sure do seem to have a problem understanding the concept of characters having unique perks or downsides, which has been an integral part of Don't Starve since very early on. 
Let me explain it to you this way: Wilson has a perk that lets him turn certain materials into other materials. The one that lets him transmute meat into morsels or the other way around is particularly convenient, and it'd be great for some other characters like Wigfrid or Warly, but it's a Wilson thing, so only he can do it. That's what's being proposed with Walter being able to do hunts from atop his mount. 

don't bother. you are trying to teach a coconut how to do algebra here. just do what i did; block and enjoy the site 10% more

[grm9]

12 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

 For someone who's always going on and on about liking the most difficult and annoying parts of this game, you sure do seem to have a problem understanding the concept of characters having unique perks or downsides, which has been an integral part of Don't Starve since very early on. 
Let me explain it to you this way: Wilson has a perk that lets him turn certain materials into other materials. The one that lets him transmute meat into morsels or the other way around is particularly convenient, and it'd be great for some other characters like Wigfrid or Warly, but it's a Wilson thing, so only he can do it. That's what's being proposed with Walter being able to do hunts from atop his mount

???

please learn to read, needing to spend 3 seconds instead of 1 on doing a dirt pile action's a minor inconvenience, being unable to turn meat into morsels isn't, being able to turn meat into morsels allows you to use some strats, making you need to spend 1 second instead of 3 on doing a dirt pile action simply removes a minor inconvenience

what do you think i don't understand? even DS characters had perks instead of minor inconvenience removals and devs usually tried to remove minor inconveniences instead of making their removal a character specific thing

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, gaymime said:

don't bother. you are trying to teach a coconut how to do algebra here. just do what i did; block and enjoy the site 10% more

Yeah, honestly, good point. His response made it clear that you're right there.