Moonlight Shackle - New Celestial Altar craft suggestion - AFW nerf

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Why you trying to gatekeep ancient fuelweaver as this super difficult boss?

My shackle idea literally doesnt affect the difficulty for you but will help those who choose to use it.

The only other shadow vs moon content we see ingame atm is when we turn on the archives. Otherwise both sides barely interact. Another item to legitimise the "war" will add to the lore.

Whats the problem?

You seem like you rather people use buggy methods to kill AFW than klei implement an optional (also costly) nerf item. 

Because:

1- dst is supposed to be a hard game

2- gathering cheap materials isnt a good way to nerf FW. You already make the fight essier by overpreparing

3- you are getting too much reward from killing fw so it shouldnt be easy neither a brain death combat as you suggest

4- it does affect me. Im tired of people saying the dumb argument of "dont use it". I can also say if you dont like fw dont experience it. Games should be balanced, i wanna see you say that after klei releases a 1k damage weapon made of 1 twig

5- characters with extra combat strength and portal exists  and is a great way of getting cofident with difficult content. Also there are other methods like the ones i mentioned

6- we are getting damage/armor buffs against shadows/moon creatures, that also applies to fw. Also we got brightshade gear which makes the fight easier with the staff and with the bonus damage from the high durability weapon which also means less inventory management 

7- we are getting more dishes and food sources to make these fights less grindy

8- skill trees are make every character way more powerful with combat perks, no need to nerf +6 years old content on top of that since clearly klei is doing all these buffs for people like you instead of nerfing the enemies (neither buffing them to compensate the dumb powercreep)

 

[Gashzer]

16 minutes ago, grm9 said:

most people here seem to still think that wolfgang, pierogi, meatballs and crock pot're meta so no

Might not be THE meta but its one of the easiest ways to kill every boss with minimum hours experience in the game...

Which is to say that it is meta for people who dont want to spend obsessive amount of time learning THE meta. 

In turn makes wolfgang, pierogi, meatballs and crockpot the more important meta. And at the end of the day that makes it THE meta to aim for. 

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Might not be THE meta but its one of the easiest ways to kill every boss with minimum hours experience in the game...

Which is to say that it is meta for people who dont want to spend obsessive amount of time learning THE meta

so, according to you, even though most people on the forums like FW, they don't spend an absurd amount of time on the game

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Because:

1- dst is supposed to be a hard game

2- gathering cheap materials isnt a good way to nerf FW. You already make the fight essier by overpreparing

3- you are getting too much reward from killing fw so it shouldnt be easy neither a brain death combat as you suggest

4- it does affect me. Im tired of people saying the dumb argument of "dont use it". I can also say if you dont like fw dont experience it. Games should be balanced, i wanna see you say that after klei releases a 1k damage weapon made of 1 twig

5- characters with extra combat strength and portal exists  and is a great way of getting cofident with difficult content. Also there are other methods like the ones i mentioned

6- we are getting damage/armor buffs against shadows/moon creatures, that also applies to fw. Also we got brightshade gear which makes the fight easier with the staff and with the bonus damage from the high durability weapon which also means less inventory management 

7- we are getting more dishes and food sources to make these fights less grindy

8- skill trees are make every character way more powerful with combat perks, no need to nerf +6 years old content on top of that since clearly klei is doing all these buffs for people like you instead of nerfing the enemies (neither buffing them to compensate the dumb powercreep)

 

You ok voidwalking getting removed? Because many people on the forums use the "dont use it" arguement to defend it.

Iridescent gem isnt cheap for the moonlight shackle neither is going out of your way to find lunar island. And if you are sayin "pfft lunar is easy to find" then this craft isnt for you. Klei is trying so hard to make people engage with the ocean, this craft adds another reward for doing just that.

DST is whatever Klei wants it to be. Not what we think it is.

Unlike singleplayer, dying in DST has zero rewards, there is no reward for sucking in DST atleast in original dont starve you unlocked new characters when you died.

 

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

so, according to you, even though most people on the forums like FW, they don't spend an absurd amount of time on the game

If 100% of forums users loved AFW and old crab king, both needed QoL even if the entire forum went in a rage.

Because believe it or not. This forum is a speck of dust compared to everyone who owns DST.

Klei has been challenging us forum members more an more ive noticed. Good for them. For example during the winona skilltree update they removed any other character accessing her catapults which i thought was very ballsy of them. They did give it back but its no where near the same level as what it was.

Fair play to them. The more they challenge the forums the better DST will be in my opinion. The forums is very good for klei in terms of bug finding and patching but isnt reliable for creative direction, in my opinion anyway.

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

If 100% of forums users loved AFW and old crab king, both needed QoL even if the entire forum went in a rage.

Because believe it or not. This forum is a speck of dust compared to everyone who owns DST.

Klei has been challenging us forum members more an more ive noticed. Good for them. For example during the winona skilltree update they removed any other character accessing her catapults which i thought was very ballsy of them. They did give it back but its no where near the same level as what it was.

Fair play to them. The more they challenge the forums the better DST will be in my opinion. The forums is very good for klei in terms of bug finding and patching but isnt reliable for creative direction, in my opinion anyway

this isn't even remotely related to what i said, that's just sad

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

this isn't even remotely related to what i said, that's just sad

Whats sad is you are trying to set me up for a "gotcha" moment and its failing horribly for you. 

We are both good for the forums tho, our debates create good ideas, like the moonlight shackle 

[Valase]

Ignoring all of the wall of text from you guys arguing.

This item is dirt cheap, especially on the long run. Like the only time that it is hard to get an Iri Gem is in the early game that people rush for the archives, besides that, you can even steal the ones on the archives to simply neuter AFW.

[reddocc]

This is just an early worse brightshade staff, doesn't kill minions, this sounds like a lot of work just for one(optional) item, the character I see benefit the most is Wilson just because he doesn't have anything to make easier the fuelweaver fight.

Almost any character nowadays has something that makes the fight easier, Willow(sanity management, crowd control),Wx (speed, stats), Wicker( crowd control, tentacle cheese), Abigail(Wendy), Wigfrid( spear,F), Wolfgang(Wolfgang), Woodie(Moose), Webber(spiders), Warly(dishes/spices), Wurt(Merms), Winona(catapults), Wanda(yes), Wormwood(crowd control/speed).

This will end up like glass cutters for AFW, people forget about them or just use ruins gear or hambats

[cybers2001]

12 hours ago, Wormboi said:

Bruh this fight is six minutes long

Also the boss health visualizer mod that conveniently allowed him to time the next phase.  
  
For the record, I strongly dislike the idea of an optional single-use item that only exists for a single boss fight. If you want to make the fight easier and you have no concern over cost, just switch to Winona and place 4 pure brilliance gemerators in the corners with catapults.

[Auth]

12 hours ago, Gashzer said:

No community opinion is useful to me.

Then make your thread in Suggestions & Feedback, not General Discussion.

Threads here are for discussing. As in, people and opinions of all kinds getting tossed around.

And even then, community opinion is useful to Klei. The forums exist to give filtered, readable feedback & discussion to Klei. That alone is what makes community opinion useful to your thread.

If every suggestion never had feedback on it, they'd have no active reflection of what are actually well-supported ideas through all the noise.

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To address your thread's actual concept:

There is no skill involved in this. It is a "Make the fight easier now" button. This is not a good way to balance anything regardless of how unbalanced the original thing is or isn't.

Considering Klei's removal of the """cheese""" (Which wasn't even cheese, it was full-blown automation with no fight), from just that logic, and the reflection of Winona's skill tree's chemistry with the fight seeing as it was added post-cheese removal, it would seem they're looking into more skillful or truly intensive solutions to make the fight 'easier' for some players. I feel that ideas like this won't be considered for the future, just going off that.

Additionally, at that point, besides someone trying to be cheeky and get bragging rights, just like enraged Klaus (remember him?), nobody would ever just fight FW "normally". If you're at the point that you have the game knowledge to even know FW exists and how to access/prepare for the fight, (AKA read the wiki,) you have the game knowledge to craft a "Make the fight easier now" button, so you'll obviously just go with the path of least resistance. I feel like that's a pretty basic expectation. Besides the remarkably small number of FW speedrunners, the average player will be preparing for FW for quite some time already.

The recipe is cheap. Its requirements are:
-Chop 10 Lune Trees, or less depending on how many blossoms you can find on the ground lying around
-Mine 10 Moon Glass boulders/vitreoasis
-Rob the archives, OR, moonstone event, OR, kill dragonfly/raid ruins/farm sproutrocks and switch to Wilson

Again, if you have the game knowledge on FW's existence and activation, you have the knowledge (or access to it) of how to get these items. The only one that cannot be instantaneously mass-farmed is the gem, but after activating the archives and getting the blueprints, you essentially have 3 free gems lying around until post-lunar rifts need you to go back down there again and turn the place back on, not to mention you just instantly starting with two if you don't care to do the archives first in the first place. You're likely not going to be fighting fuelweaver more than once in the first place, let alone more than three times, unless you're a megabaser/long termer, in which case you already won't be sweating about farming something like the iridescent gem.

Making the recipe more expensive will just make it a more boring version of the existing solutions we already have, encouraging players to take a less skillful/risky play and robbing them of the experience they could've had with items that reward skill or investment in more unique areas.

If your solution to this thought would be "Well they can just add a new reward for doing him the hard way" then that just makes it so now people are going to feel ripped off for doing the fight the cheap way and that now the amazing solution Klei added now isn't good enough because it keeps them blocked off from this new crazy good item, so it'll repeat the cycle, or it'll just be something as useless as the Napsack. If you want to say the napsack is good because it means you can dupe shroomskin, that's just another way of saying it's good because it invalidates fighting the boss again. Depressing. Either way, this is not good design.

If your idea of it requiring skill is "Oh but it can break if you don't take care of the threats", then what exact difference is this item supposed to make? If your punishment for not fighting it in the already intended way is that the band-aid solution item breaks, then what's the actual real point of having it? FW can heal to full with woven shadows, so if the player was already struggling with those and broke their chain item, then they're just going to keep struggling with it, and end up prolonging the inevitable, probably making them more aggravated in the process.

On 7/15/2024 at 10:53 AM, Gashzer said:

"it's fascinating that people're willing to argue to prevent others from getting fun even if that wouldn't affect them"

Every piece of content in the game affects me. I use the same game as everyone else, including all the content inside it. If you can see the obvious hole in the logic of me saying "If you don't like the fuelweaver, don't fight him", then you should be able to see the hole in the logic of that argument being applied to anything else. I, just like anyone else, want to experience the game to the fullest and want to see the full extent and depth to each mechanic, regardless of whether or not I like it.

I can't choose to not look at a certain half of a puzzle if I'm still expecting to build the whole thing. I can choose to not build that half, but then I'm left with a blatantly unfinished puzzle, and that's how it's going to look and feel, too. Unsatisfying. And sometimes, that just ruins the whole experience.

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Try to not take criticism of your ideas negatively. You can instead take it constructively and use it as a way to make a far more fleshed-out idea that considers multiple views. There's always more to learn and think of, and you can't get something much more thought out than by having multiple brains literally think it out.

[Gashzer]

10 minutes ago, Auth said:

Try to not take criticism of your ideas negatively. You can instead take it constructively and use it as a way to make a far more fleshed-out idea that considers multiple views. There's always more to learn and think of, and you can't get something much more thought out than by having multiple brains literally think it out.

This idea was created by taking other peoples views into consideration. 

I originally wanted a rework for ancient fuelweaver (i still do) but this idea is to compromise with people i disagreed with.

This is a fair middle ground between the people who dont enjoy the fight as is and the people who do.

[Catuna_]

while im not opposed to letting the player spend more time compared to normal to make a boss easier, I don't like the idea of this one specific item meant for this one specific boss and I feel like the game doesn't really owe you invalidating the boss's mechanics for you, it still should require your input rather than it doing things for you. I don't like the idea of this item, and I feel like Fuelweaver is fine considering that players could (and do) go for weather pains for accessible AoE that isn't character specific, not to mention that skill trees (being generally combat centered) is giving AoE to more, more and more characters, which makes this change more questionable imo.
No, this item wouldn't affect me but that doesn't really stop me from being upset about its existence and how the game just offers specific items that are meant to serve one purpose and it's to lobotomize a boss. It's okay to have things that are hard to accomplish that need practice, the game doesn't owe you the boss' drops. I think fuelweaver is fine, it's fine for a boss to be hard.

[arubaro]

Also, now that i realized, the most important argument against this awful design suggestion is that killing fuelweaver triggers what, supposedly, will be harder content. If they drop the difficulty of this boss so any new player, or lazy unskilled players, can beat him them what would happend to the following content? Klei will be pushed too much to nerf everything that they release

Fw is a filter, that will skill trees is being lowered, to future harder so no one who isnt able to manage 4 buttons and kill a treeguard with a couple of mechanics should be experiencing the new content for obvious reasons like how deerclops doesnt spawn day 1 on top of new players neither +6hound waves dont spawn in new comers

[Gashzer]

9 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Also, now that i realized, the most important argument against this awful design suggestion is that killing fuelweaver triggers what, supposedly, will be harder content. If they drop the difficulty of this boss so any new player, or lazy unskilled players, can beat him them what would happend to the following content? Klei will be pushed too much to nerf everything that they release

Fw is a filter, that will skill trees is being lowered, to future harder so no one who isnt able to manage 4 buttons and kill a treeguard with a couple of mechanics should be experiencing the new content for obvious reasons like how deerclops doesnt spawn day 1 on top of new players neither +6hound waves dont spawn in new comers

You are acting like people will be able to kill ancient fuelweaver even with the moonlight shackle lol.

If the player ignores the woven shadows then the shackle can block the first shield and maybe the full first wave of woven shadows until the moonlight shackle breaks and then he can heal straight back up to full hp if someone isnt careful.

My idea isnt even that powerful folks

 

[arubaro]

21 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You are acting like people will be able to kill ancient fuelweaver even with the moonlight shackle lol.

If the player ignores the woven shadows then the shackle can block the first shield and maybe the full first wave of woven shadows until the moonlight shackle breaks and then he can heal straight back up to full hp if someone isnt careful.

My idea isnt even that powerful folks

 

Isnt about it being powerful or not, is how bland and forced it feels to add an item to deactivate mechanics from a single boss that, on top of how awful is the design philosophy of the item,  is suppose to be a hard boss

 

[Gashzer]

Just now, arubaro said:

Isnt about it being powerful or not, is how bland and forced it feels to add an item to deactivate mechanics from a single boss

 

Its not bland or forced. Klei have made us start choosing sides. And the only conflict we see between the shadow and lunar is when we turn on the archives. While lunar weapons do more damage to shadow monsters they have no special interactions. 

Ancient fuelweaver could tell us more lore with the shackle attached about the conflict in the past.

Well if no one wants an item to nerf ancient fuelweaver ill be going back to supporting a rework for him instead

Good day gentlemen.

[grm9]

9 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Whats sad is you are trying to set me up for a "gotcha" moment and its failing horribly for you

because you responded through random unrelated stuff?

[FluffyBun]

Move it to Brightshade Smithy

On 7/16/2024 at 1:53 AM, Gashzer said:

And it allows those who dont want to kill Celestial champion first or activate the rifts, a way to weaken ancient fuelweaver.

 

Fuelweaver is meant to be hard.

[arubaro]

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Well if no one wants an item to nerf ancient fuelweaver ill be going back to supporting a rework for him instead

"Lets waste time telling the devs to waste time nerfing what is the best designed boss instead of use that time playing the game to git gud"

Nice life philosophy 

[Gashzer]

Just now, arubaro said:

"Lets waste time telling the devs to waste time nerfing what is the best designed boss instead of using that time playing the game to git gud"

Here man i can kill AFW perfectly fine on pc, im just lookin for a reasonable nerf to help me on switch... Which will also help others that struggle on PC.

[arubaro]

10 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Here man i can kill AFW perfectly fine on pc, im just lookin for a reasonable nerf to help me on switch... Which will also help others that struggle on PC.

Then suggest improvements for console controls without nerfing content which would help in other areas outside of fuelweaver while it would bring the opportunity of adding more interesting content instead of the game being dragged because for some reason klei released a no control friendly game in every single console

[Gashzer]

Just now, arubaro said:

Then suggest improvements for console controls without nerfing content which would help in other areas outside of fuelweaver while it would bring the opportunity of adding more interesting content instead of the game being dragged because for some reason klei released a no control friendly game in every single console

Nah, i think moonlight shackle is a great idea and i stand by it.

[ChintzyGnat]

This idea is flawed in the way that there are like 200 ways to make this boss easier. I had someone with 5000 hours who can't even fight klaus alone, solo fuelweaver by giving her the best gear in the game. Didn't even use catapults either and she still did it.

[dst_lover]

 you can just make a lot of gunpowder if u don't have the skill to kill the AFW  and if you are lazy and don't went to make a 80 gunpowder or don't have the skill just open rifts in your world and make it fast and make your Brightshade Staff

[Valase]

2 hours ago, dst_lover said:

 you can just make a lot of gunpowder if u don't have the skill to kill the AFW  and if you are lazy and don't went to make a 80 gunpowder or don't have the skill just open rifts in your world and make it fast and make your Brightshade Staff

but then it will be too expensive and hard ;-;