New "Chilly Surroundings" and "Toasty Surroundings" debuffs change the Classic Asteroid start in a pretty massive way

[sirnumbskull]

From what I can see, this change has the potential to have lethal effects in the original starting asteroid colonies, as the starting water pools are cool enough to give the chilly debuff, and many of the other biomes have the potential to introduce chilly or toasty, which gives a MASSIVE -5 athletics.  If a dupe gets caught out this way in a low oxygen area, they may not be able to move fast enough to avoid death.

I just want to make sure that this is within the game's intent, as the countermeasures to these debuffs are not immediately clear, and this will make it more difficult to get out of your home planet by discouraging exploration of the base biomes, as the new debuffs will haunt your dupes throughout.  

[Primalflower]

You think they'll be able to get toasty surroundings in normal biomes? The Caustic (drecko) biomes might have some toast to them if a duplicant sits in hydrogen for too long, but otherwise, it doesn't seem like most places would have enough mass and conductivity to upset a duplicant.

Otherwise, It sounds like a neat addition for the player to want 1 or 2 space heaters around just for the sake of warming up dupes who took dips in the pool (this will also cure them of being soaked, iirc? not sure)

[Gurgel]

I think this is a non-issue, or rather an improvement. Now Rime and Oassisse actually become a bit of a challenge for advanced players. 

 

[sirnumbskull]

14 hours ago, Primalflower said:

You think they'll be able to get toasty surroundings in normal biomes? The Caustic (drecko) biomes might have some toast to them if a duplicant sits in hydrogen for too long, but otherwise, it doesn't seem like most places would have enough mass and conductivity to upset a duplicant.

Otherwise, It sounds like a neat addition for the player to want 1 or 2 space heaters around just for the sake of warming up dupes who took dips in the pool (this will also cure them of being soaked, iirc? not sure)

So here's poor Mi-Ma, suffering from toasty surroundings, at 40C, after mere seconds in the orange area.  Same thing happens if they touch water for a few seconds.  Instant -5 athletics debuff.  You can moderate this with some things, sure, but many of these areas are directly adjacent to the starting biome and were previously far less inconvenient to access.  These debuffs don't directly prevent you from accessing these areas, they just slow things down immensely.  Not sure how I feel about that.

 

[imazined]

12 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I think this is a non-issue, or rather an improvement. Now Rime and Oassisse actually become a bit of a challenge for advanced players. 

 

To me this looks mostly like an oversight and one that should be corrected. On Ceres we're given the research near the printing pod and a warm coat. There is no warm coat nor free research on Rime or Frozen Forest. More importantly there is no hot equivalent to a warm coat. Also the only building that removes the debuff is the water cooler which also where the dupes prefer to hang out in their downtime. Plus the food poisoning chance.

This is probably just sloppy game testing. I'm in favor of the new heat mechanics even if they make some things more complicated but nerfing favorite old starts because of an oversight would be not a good look for Klei.

Plus absurd behavior like this.
 

 

[imazined]

This is just absurd

[imazined]

The acceptable temperatures for being in water are between 33C and 39C

[sirnumbskull]

5 hours ago, imazined said:

The acceptable temperatures for being in water are between 33C and 39C

One, thank you for doing the testing. 

Two, this range is firmly outside temps you'd expect to see for water in the original biomes, which I think is a problem. 

Three, they said that a dupe should be comfortable from 0-45C in air, so it strikes me as odd that water would have such a narrow range.  

But four, do we need to have a discussion about humane duplicant treatment, imazined?

[Primalflower]

if this is to be addressed at all, I seriously advise against making it so water doesn't trigger it. its good and i like it

[sakura_sk]

My thinking of a solution to a new mechanic that may or may not break existing saves, would be the same as the change for atmosuit durability was. Meaning having the new mechanic as "difficulty" setting so its "default" setting is zero unless you change it or play Ceres.

It's hard to say how impactful it would be to each and every map both Spaced Out and base game unless someone plays at least 100-200 cycles of it.

I can imagine Quagmiris and Squelchy starting planetoids being even slower at progressing than they already are. Hot starting planetoids will become even harder since there is no easy way to "cool" dupes like the heating debuff they get from wood heater and other room heating options (or I haven't played enough yet to see how to handle heat like cold) and there are no other measures for heat apart from atmo suits. There was always clothing to add insulation in order to deal with cold but no clothing to deal with heat.

[imazined]

5 hours ago, sirnumbskull said:

Three, they said that a dupe should be comfortable from 0-45C in air, so it strikes me as odd that water would have such a narrow range.

The water changes the used TC two the one of genetic ooze. Faster heat transfer more lost heat. The decision to apply the debuff appears to be made on basis of heat flow only.

5 hours ago, sirnumbskull said:

But four, do we need to have a discussion about humane duplicant treatment, imazined?

No worries, no duplicant was harmed. Just some surprise dupe actions.

[Gurgel]

Hmm. Maybe some "dupe freezer" recreational building that prevents this for a whole cycle at the cost of some cold liquid and, say, 2 or 3 hours of cooling in the recreation time?

[imazined]

If the warming/heating stations could work like a checkpoint it would be a lot smoother. But I'm not sure how this would integrate lore wise.

[arvenil]

I don't get why the chill/toasty debuff can't have a range. It should take some time to gradually ramp up to -5 debuff, instead of being applied instantly. Why not apply -1 and slowly ramp it up to -5?

[sakura_sk]

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Maybe some "dupe freezer"

Juicer and soda fountain? They could have a buff "cooling effect". Or a new building using ice to make cold drinks perhaps?

[qlyphoath]

I hate this change SO MUCH.

[sirnumbskull]

The worst part is, even using warm sweaters doesn't change the equation.  You'd need to have your water tepidized to 35C for non-sweater dupes and 32ish for sweatermonkies for them to be able to wade with impunity, which would involve a LOT of temperature terraforming for new colonies.  I honestly feel like there's not a particularly elegant solution for this problem in the game at the moment.  Running wires out to heaters near the water source?  But they have to GET the debuff before they can benefit, so...

[Alex_D]

I purchased the DLC (along with SO). I'm still playing an old OG colony on a very cold asteroid but now with the new game features.
The new athletics penalties (cold plus eye irritant) caught me by surprise.
After a few dozens of cycles I started admitting new dupes, which have yet to get high athletic stats.
One of my dupes was nearly about to die (running out of oxygen) and was moving so slow due to the athletics penalties, it was rather comical.
I had to reload, and restrict the new dupes from leaving the base.

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 7/4/2024 at 10:36 AM, imazined said:

On Ceres we're given the research near the printing pod and a warm coat. There is no warm coat nor free research on Rime or Frozen Forest.

You can also remove the debuff with a shower, which you can have built easily before the 8th cycle.  I usually have mine built by the 3rd or 4th cycle.  You can't use showers on Ceres until you can insulate areas, so other methods were necessary.

1 hour ago, Alex_D said:

One of my dupes was nearly about to die (running out of oxygen) and was moving so slow due to the athletics penalties, it was rather comical.

I ran into that issue as well!  My solution was to make sure I either picked a frost-proof dupe, or could restrict the new dupe's travels to areas with wood stoves until I had a coat or atmo-suit for them.

1 hour ago, sirnumbskull said:

You'd need to have your water tepidized to 35C for non-sweater dupes and 32ish for sweatermonkies for them to be able to wade with impunity,

Maybe they'll add galoshes or something to let dupes run around in water without getting the wet-feet debuff.  Personally I like the current system -- there is more of a challenge for separating gasses or giving rooms a vacuum.