Reload save file for better prints: yes or no

[axxel]

Hello there,

Without considering mods (and to an certain extent care packages), I was wondering if I reload a save file for a better prints is viewed as cheating. I feel it's like tricking the system, but seeing "bad" dupes make it undesireable to even pick one. To make it clear, I am not into self-imposed challenges. Reject all would be the logical choice, but re-rolling for something better is always a better option. If you can manipulate luck on the place, you'll do. And I dislike my past choices for that (and give up the world to punish myself to the point I didn't like to play a new asteroid). In short, you manipulate the rng by resetting, a common phenomenon in gaming (esp.RPGs like Pokemon or Fire Emblem), because it can make your gameplay easier or harder. In the end, bad dupes are avoidable unless you willingly accept that dupe (who will be merciless killed anyway...).

Overall, I kinda miss the "uncompromised survival" part of this game (like classic DS does have, which is my favourite of Klei games). Having saves are helpful or even important for long-running colonies, but many game content are less useful because you can "undo" them (e.g. dumb dupe behaviour, deseases, broken buildings or even death). I thought it would the topic namer but I wouldn't force other players to play without multiple save files, so I limited it to the printing pod.

So, do you load another save for better prints or can you play without it. Should the developer change it or implement something else to surprise the player?

 

 

[pnambic]

38 minutes ago, axxel said:

So, do you load another save for better prints or can you play without it. Should the developer change it or implement something else to surprise the player?

I use DSS when I feel casual, and don't when I don't. You do whatever you feel like. This is a single-player game that does not disable achievements when modded (not even when modded with the mod that re-enables achievements after dropping into debug mode). There is no competition, so there is no way to cheat (apart from cheating yourself - or maybe by lying about what you did in public, for internet points, but, I mean, we're mostly grown-ups here, right...?).

And in no way in hell should Klei change any of that. One of ONI's greatest strengths is that the level of challenge is completely under player control.

[goboking]

As someone who spends far too much time save scumming until I get perfect dupes, I wish we could enable printing pod rerolls.

[axxel]

10 hours ago, pnambic said:

And in no way in hell should Klei change any of that. One of ONI's greatest strengths is that the level of challenge is completely under player control.

Isn't it ok that the developer could add a shuffle button for the printing pod?

Though I'd like to know it is intended that the printing materials change after ever save load. 

[pnambic]

30 minutes ago, axxel said:

Isn't it ok that the developer could add a shuffle button for the printing pod?

Though I'd like to know it is intended that the printing materials change after ever save load. 

There are mods for that already (like the one I linked), which I run when I want that functionality. So I'd be fine with it added, as an option, but that wouldn't change anything - it's already there, as an option.

As for intentionality, if you want me to speculate: it's additional effort to save the internal state of the printing pod and/or the state of the RNG. That effort has not been expended. Also, doing so would take an (inconvenient, but still) option away from players while adding nothing, and Klei have consistently been about giving more options to players with ONI. I would tend towards "intended", then, or maybe just "never saw that as a problem".

(While I'm at it: The question of "cheating" in a game like ONI rubs me the wrong way, as does "developer intention", if to a lesser extent. You stated explicitly that you don't want to force others to play without multiple save files. How about not forcing others to play in any way they don't want to, and instead simply playing the game yourself the way you want to? You don't need permission from anyone, including the devs. And noone else should, either.)

[axxel]

2 hours ago, pnambic said:

There are mods for that already (like the one I linked), which I run when I want that functionality. So I'd be fine with it added, as an option, but that wouldn't change anything - it's already there, as an option.

I understand your point that I can use the option. Everyone should choose to play the game the way they like as long it allows it. Though I already explained my stance in the opening post. I would have used the mod or play sandbox but I didn't want to hurt the original spirit Klei wanted to show and I want to experience. I am wrong that your solution didn't appeal to me and how? 

[pnambic]

1 minute ago, axxel said:

I understand your point that I can use the option. Everyone should choose to play the game the way they like as long it allows it. Though I already explained my stance in the opening post. I would have used the mod or play sandbox but I didn't want to hurt the original spirit Klei wanted to show and I want to experience. I am wrong that your solution didn't appeal to me and how? 

If you are able to find a document somewhere outlining that elusive "original spirit", let me know. ONI is a sandbox, even outside of sandbox mode. There are people who speedrun all achievements in under 200 cycles. There are people who build bases shaped like cartoon characters and never go to space. As long as they're having fun, they're within the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned.

More generally, if the solution of "doing what you want" doesn't appeal to you, I don't know who can help you with that.

[axxel]

2 hours ago, pnambic said:

If you are able to find a document somewhere outlining that elusive "original spirit", let me know. ONI is a sandbox, even outside of sandbox mode. There are people who speedrun all achievements in under 200 cycles. There are people who build bases shaped like cartoon characters and never go to space. As long as they're having fun, they're within the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned.

More generally, if the solution of "doing what you want" doesn't appeal to you, I don't know who can help you with that.

Ok, I can't argue here if you know how the game should work. It confuses me as I didn't asked for that.

[pnambic]

I'll try taking your original post line by line and clarify:

17 hours ago, axxel said:

Without considering mods (and to an certain extent care packages), I was wondering if I reload a save file for a better prints is viewed as cheating.

No. It is impossible to cheat in ONI, because of the kind of game it is (single-player,  no competition).

17 hours ago, axxel said:

I feel it's like tricking the system, but seeing "bad" dupes make it undesireable to even pick one. [...] Reject all would be the logical choice, but re-rolling for something better is always a better option.[...] I dislike my past choices for that (and give up the world to punish myself to the point I didn't like to play a new asteroid). [... etc. etc. etc. ...]

Nobody here can do anything about these feelings. If you don't want to reroll, don't. If you do reroll, but don't want to, stop doing that. If you don't want to and can't stop, that is a problem that can not be solved on a gaming forum.

17 hours ago, axxel said:

Overall, I kinda miss the "uncompromised survival" part of this game

You can have that experience by not reloading after catastrophes. I'd still auto-save because every program can crash on occasion, but if you want uncompromised survival, that is achieved by not reloading to reroll or otherwise change outcomes.

17 hours ago, axxel said:

So, do you load another save for better prints or can you play without it.

I can play without it, and sometimes I do. Sometimes, I want to play with rerolling, and I use a mod for that, then. I believe that the majority of people on this forum do this similarly.

17 hours ago, axxel said:

Should the developer change it or implement something else to surprise the player?

No, because the sitution as it is right now offers all options to all players already. I'm not opposed to integrating the mod, but since it exists and works, I'd rather have Klei spend their time on other things.

I'm open to claims that I have misunderstood something, but it seems pretty clear to me what you asked, and I think I answered that...? Please do tell me if I didn't!

[Muramas]

Should be a setting toggle imo, just let us either have rerolls, pick or how it is currently. I personally play with a mod where I can pick what I get each print and I am really happy with it.

[axxel]

@pnambic Hi, I can't and won't answer all your personal views. To explain my opinion it's part my view on this particular game design and mainly bad eyeing on that matter, I guess? I already stated I wouldn't go against save files and it wasn't the topic though I wanted to demonstrate how reloading affect gameplay. In this case, the printing pod. If the printing pod presents me duplicants with undesireable traits then why the game doesn't force me to pick one or omit them. Why does the printing pod give random outputs? If I still want to keep the game as classic as it can be a mod cannot be an answer. I might be a selfish hypocrite that I don't pick dupes with bad traits but I didn't want to play with alway ideal dupes either. It makes the game easier. 

However, everyone can play the game in their own way.

[pnambic]

1 hour ago, axxel said:

why the game doesn't force me to pick one or omit them

Because...

1 hour ago, axxel said:

everyone can play the game in their own way.

...and that includes you.

You asked a question. I answered it. I am not calling you a bad person, and I'm sorry if this whole discussion felt that way.

[axxel]

20 hours ago, pnambic said:

Because...

...and that includes you.

You asked a question. I answered it. I am not calling you a bad person, and I'm sorry if this whole discussion felt that way.

Sorry I am wasting your time. It's more complicated ... on my side, my small hints didn't reach you. But thank you for trying. Your solution isn't bad but it's not suitable for me.