Merm workers are honestly not competitive enough with shadow workers.

[Masked Koopa]

I've thought about this a fair bit and I honestly think that for all the positive changes Wurt's tree has brought about, a lot more could be done toward letting Wurt have a solid place in the game's meta. Right now the level of babysitting required for Merms just doesn't feel fair when compared to their output, especially when compared to Maxwell's shadow workers. Here are my main concerns, and some ideas on how to deal with them.

• Wurt having to be actively present for a worker merm to work.
  • I am of the opinion that a Merm holding a tool should automatically clear out anything near its home.
  • If we are concerned over them clearing areas unwantedly, this could be tied to having a merm food bowl with kelp in it - as long as there is kelp in the bowl, they will continue to work.
    • I am of the opinion that Embalming Spritz already solves most of these issues anyway.
       
• Merms not gathering items.
  • This could either work by them grabbing items and handing them to you while hired, or having a merm behave like a Wobot, putting items into a chest if it is near their home.
    • If the latter is implemented, the Kelp bowl would once again be an ideal solution.
       
• Merms not picking from bushes/grass tufts/saplings/etc
  • This could either work via them responding directly to a specific pickable (i.e you pick a grass tuft they will only pick grass tufts and not saplings), or work similar to item-gathering where they will harvest pickables near their home and desposit them in a chest.
  • If we want to include a downside, they could perhaps eat any pickable foods instead of handing them to you.
    • Or perhaps only when they are hungry/the kelp bowl is empty.

"But this is Maxwell/Winona's gimmick! You can't take it from them!"

• So for one I would like to point out that overlapping perks is nothing new, especially in the realm of skill trees.
  • Winona for example is already stepping on Woodie's toes with her Planar Strike being VERY similar to the beaver's tail slam.
  • In addition, Wortox's teleportation has been shared with Wanda and now with Winona as well.
     
• I would also like to point out that Wurt's Merms just generally require more setup than Maxwell. Maxwell's workers are available to him from literal day one, while Wurt has to first find the swamp, then set up Mermhouses, or spend time collecting extra food to feed the merms (and keep them fed), and set up toolsheds, and so on and so forth. Even if it isn't gonna take you more than maybe an ingame week or so, you're still going to have something that's significantly more hassle than pressing M2 and clicking on shadow worker on your spell menu.

"Maxwell is already OP though"

• If there was ever a character who deserves to be able to do as wide an array of things as Maxwell, it's probably Wurt.
• She is the most setup-heavy character in the cast, which mean she's never the fastest solution to a problem.
  • It's because of this that there just isn't the same worry about her power level. Sure, an army of the new planar Merm Guards is enough offensive power to absolutely obliterate any enemy, but because getting to that point is such a lengthy process, noone is really concerned about that fact.
  • One could definitely argue that Merm workers are perhaps somewhat less lategame than Guards, but I think making some of these features require having a King alive would probably resolve that concern, as the tapestry is quite a significant fetch quest all things considered.

"These shouldn't be Wurt exclusive"

• Honestly? Sure, i'd prefer it if a lot of these functions could be implemented in Pigmen as well, perhaps with worse efficiency or something.
• That having been said I am well aware that character-specific powers and perks are all the rage both with the community and Klei.
  • I would rather these features exist and be Wurt exclusive than have them not exist at all.
• It is also perhaps worth pointing out that these are technically not Wurt-exclusive anyway. You can already use normal Merms via the Clever Disguise.

[StitchesPlush]

These changes could also help with Toadstool's fight, so that the Merms with axes focus on the Mushtrees while the Merm Guards focus on defeating her.

[Frosty_Mentos]

13 minutes ago, StitchesPlush said:

These changes could also help with Toadstool's fight, so that the Merms with axes focus on the Mushtrees while the Merm Guards focus on defeating her.

Toad fight needs boom shrooms to scare away followers tbh. Anything that isn't shadow like Maxwell's to keep away from them to do much of boom damage to it. If any epic fight is that Toad needs actual armies to defeat, if only followers of any kind weren't stupid.

[Mysterious box]

59 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

Merms not gathering items.

• This could either work by them grabbing items and handing them to you while hired, or having a merm behave like a Wobot, putting items into a chest if it is near their home.
  • If the latter is implemented, the Kelp bowl would once again be an ideal solution.

 

This could definitely be implemented by just having them gather resources used in Wurt's crafts like grass, twigs, logs, and rocks. And would go a long way in softening her grind.

[arubaro]

Aaaand another post comparing character's pieces, not even the whole picture

Maxwell is op, dont raise everybody to his absurd level in any aspect

[Masked Koopa]

5 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Aaaand another post comparing character's pieces, not even the whole picture

Maxwell is op, dont raise everybody to his absurd level in any aspect

I don't think these changes would make Wurt unreasonable, given that a lot of what Maxwell brings to the table is immediately accessible perks that can be used in any location with 0 prep. It's not as though I'm asking for Wurt to be able to conjure merms out of thin air, nor am I saying that they shouldn't have a cost for being used.

[_zwb]

Can we stop asking to buff characters for five seconds? And why does characters have to be the same for all aspects of their abilities(rather than being equal for overall power level)?

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Can we stop asking to buff characters for five seconds? And why does characters have to be the same for all aspects of their abilities(rather than being equal for overall power level)?

While I do get where you're coming from allowing merms to pick up stuff like logs would be more so quality of life than powercreep considering Wurt is the character who is most in need of gathering a ton of resources in her gameplay loop and not everyone is able to get the lazy forager.

[paodocevoante1]

58 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I don't think these changes would make Wurt unreasonable, given that a lot of what Maxwell brings to the table is immediately accessible perks that can be used in any location with 0 prep. It's not as though I'm asking for Wurt to be able to conjure merms out of thin air, nor am I saying that they shouldn't have a cost for being used.

Your post doesn't make any sense, Wurt is already a ridiculously strong character as long as she has the time, she beats Maxwell Late Game like he's nothing

[Masked Koopa]

26 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Can we stop asking to buff characters for five seconds? And why does characters have to be the same for all aspects of their abilities(rather than being equal for overall power level)?

My stance on this is that is is OK if there is an imbalance in the aspects of a character, but I think that imbalance should be reflected in how that aspect is designed. My issue with the situation is not the fundamental idea that Maxwell has something Wurt does not, it is in that Merms have a higher setup time than Puppets yet wield actively worse results despite that. There is plenty of room in the game for perks that are initially very strong but fall off compared to options that are more costly and thus late game.


I also don't think that this would be some massive shift in the power balance of the game, as far as I am concerned this is much moreso making the game more balanced by evening out the options relative to their effort. These changes are not going to change the fact that Wurt is a character who has a lot of powerful options but takes a fair amount of time to properly get going. But these changes will make Wurt players feel their efforts are being rewarded, and will make her generally more fun to play.

I do understand the concern over making everything too strong, but I think that we can and should base our expectations on what already exists. Maxwell isn't just going to stop existing because we refuse to accept the standard he is setting. Unless Klei very specifically says that Maxwell's existing options are going to be made actively more limited, it is not at all unfair to use him as a comparison point for gatherer minions.
Chances are, Maxwell's tree update will probably feature a tree somewhat akin to Wolfgang's tree, with a bunch of "meh" perks that leave him largely untouched. With that in mind, Wurt's post-skilltree state should probably leave her in a position that scales to Maxwell as he is right now.

[Well-met]

have you considered the part where merms aren't even meant to be workers and that this new mechanic is infact a gift from klei?

Consider yourself lucky that this is even a thing instead of being obsessed with min/max

 

[benfroyobro9381]

Merms are a jack of all trades. While they aren't as good as Maxwell, near the peak of resource gathering, they can still do plenty of other things. 

[Masked Koopa]

6 minutes ago, Well-met said:

have you considered the part where merms aren't even meant to be workers and that this new mechanic is infact a gift from klei?

It was Klei who gave Merms the ability to chop trees, as well as mine rocks (meaning it was more than just a simple copy/paste from pigmen, they actively added ways for them to do work). This new mechanic didn't introduce an aspect that wasn't already there, nor did we as players imagine that it existed. It also makes complete sense for a character with such a focus on building to be able to gather resources more efficiently in order to facilitate the material cost.

I think these changes would work nicely with her current mechanics, as the spears needed for Merm Guards require grass and twigs to craft, something which could be obtained via them picking tufts/saplings, or gathering dropped grass/twigs from Gators/Gekkos/Twiggy Trees/Above Average Trees.
 

1 minute ago, benfroyobro9381 said:

Merms are a jack of all trades. While they aren't as good as Maxwell, near the peak of resource gathering, they can still do plenty of other things. 

I really don't see a reason why they can't be about as good as Maxwell's puppets though. I don't think it would cause any significant balance issue, while it would absolutely enhance Wurt's gameplay both in terms of allowing experimentation and streamlining the process of building up her kingdom.

[_zwb]

53 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

My issue with the situation is not the fundamental idea that Maxwell has something Wurt does not, it is in that Merms have a higher setup time than Puppets yet wield actively worse results despite that.

nerf Maxwell then, honestly idk why Maxwell has all those abilities day 1 in the first place.

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, _zwb said:

nerf Maxwell then, honestly idk why Maxwell has all those abilities day 1 in the first place.

If you ever try maxwell on consoles you will quickly realise he sucks pretty bad. Wurt is much much stronger on consoles.

On PC hes strong but you are fixed doing the same set path, tame beefalo to get over his small health. Rush ruins to farm spelumonkeys for huge amounts of nightmare fuel otherwise nightmare farming is tedious.

[Masked Koopa]

8 hours ago, _zwb said:

nerf Maxwell then, honestly idk why Maxwell has all those abilities day 1 in the first place.

I mean if Klei were to say that they are going to do that, then sure, I suppose that'd be an acceptable alternative. But I feel like that isn't likely to happen.

9 hours ago, paodocevoante1 said:

Your post doesn't make any sense, Wurt is already a ridiculously strong character as long as she has the time, she beats Maxwell Late Game like he's nothing

I don't think these changes would make Wurt any more unreasonable than she is right now. I really don't see the issue in having parity between Merms and Shadow Workers.

[Jakepeng99]

12 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

• Wurt having to be actively present for a worker merm to work.
  • I am of the opinion that a Merm holding a tool should automatically clear out anything near its home.
  • If we are concerned over them clearing areas unwantedly, this could be tied to having a merm food bowl with kelp in it - as long as there is kelp in the bowl, they will continue to work.
    • I am of the opinion that Embalming Spritz already solves most of these issues anyway.
       
• Merms not gathering items.
  • This could either work by them grabbing items and handing them to you while hired, or having a merm behave like a Wobot, putting items into a chest if it is near their home.
    • If the latter is implemented, the Kelp bowl would once again be an ideal solution.
       
• Merms not picking from bushes/grass tufts/saplings/etc
  • This could either work via them responding directly to a specific pickable (i.e you pick a grass tuft they will only pick grass tufts and not saplings), or work similar to item-gathering where they will harvest pickables near their home and desposit them in a chest.
  • If we want to include a downside, they could perhaps eat any pickable foods instead of handing them to you.
    • Or perhaps only when they are hungry/the kelp bowl is empty

 

I have been asking for ages. Here was my final idea:

 

Shoddy Toolhut

No longer has teirs of huts, as it was sorta useless. Big changes have been made to this:

• Teir 1 unlocks the "slightly less shoddy" toolhut instead. It has been renamed to "toolhut".
• You may right click on the toolhut to activate "Work hours". All craftsmerms in radius with a tool will automatically do any workactions within the radius of the toolhut.
• Merms can now also harvest things like grass, saplings, ect using their axes that work as scyths (less durability used). Merms in Work hours will collect items from the floor and deposit them in chests around the toolshed.
• Merms will take large breaks every so often. You can drastically reduce this break by making a kelp feeder. They will hang around and eat from it during break time.
• You can feed merms yourself to speed up breaktimes. 

Teir 2: Unlocks pond fishing rod tools, and garden hoe tools. For Wurts with the skill, these tools have different slots in the toolshed that you can fill so merms can get these tools. Merms fish slower than players, and are clumsy so can fail every so often. The garden hows have them till a nearby plot in a 3×3 formation. I wont go much more into this to save space and time, so you can unterpret it.

 

Kelp Feeder

There was also some changes mentioned in the shoddy tool hut part, but i have another. The king will now eat out the nearby kelp feeders next to him when he is hungry.

 

Armery

Removed teiring system just like the tool hut (the old helmets will appear still as cosmetic variations). Teir 1 has the 40% damage reduction helmet. (It has been nerfed to a lower reduction to compensate for a buff, so its a rework)

Teir 1: You can now also right click an Armery to turn on "territorial mode". All guard merms in range of the Armery will be aggressive to all creatures inside of the Armery range. Good for farms or hound defense.

Teir 2: Wurts with this skill can add mosquito sacks and silk into the structure in addition to the old materials to make an upgraded helmet. The helmet will heal the merm a fixed instant amount once the helmet is broken. The helmet will automatically break itself when the merm reaches 0 health.

This will make it more interesting.

 

[Evelo]

Another day, another, "Certain Skills don't belong as skills but belong as baseline traits."

[3C_Dadger]

I think the shoddy tools would be perfectly fine if it didn't use up durability doing a job they could already do by hand. IE: Chopping trees doesn't use the tool or its durabiltiy. Breaking rocks/marble doesn't use the tool or its durability.

[Valase]

Dear, if you think that Maxwell is better than Wurt, go play Maxwell. There is a reason for you to play Wurt just like there is a reason to you play Maxwell.

[marshyds]

Wurt's labor merms generally feel ungodly similar to pre-skilltree, all they got that was new was the ability to dig up stumps and till soil.

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

mean if Klei were to say that they are going to do that, then sure, I suppose that'd be an acceptable alternative. But I feel like that isn't likely to happen

See? You dont think wurt is weak and needs a buff, you simply suggest a buff because you think that another character is better in 1 task...that isnt a good reason to buff a perfect balanced character, even less when we talk about wurt and her 373626261748482^100 perks

[marshyds]

10 minutes ago, arubaro said:

See? You dont think wurt is weak and needs a buff, you simply suggest a buff because you think that another character is better in 1 task...that isnt a good reason to buff a perfect balanced character, even less when we talk about wurt and her 373626261748482^100 perks

its moreso that wurt is just kinda boring, even lategame with her "interesting" billion perks, which include:

1) Buff pigmen that can now chop stumps

2) Buff pigmen that can kill most bosses and enemies quick

3) A merm king buff that still doesnt aid wurt much besides just having better stats, while also making merms invincible (The questline itself is really cool though.)

4) Merm king trades that ammount to gold, mediocre seeds and stuff to expand your already giant army.

5) Amphibian perks that just help her stats even more, even if the temperature part is neat

6) Armor to make your invincible army even more invincible.

7) Merms that can till soil, which is pretty cool to be honest.

8) Mosquito perks that are decent but still are mostly for combat, which wurt already excels at lategame.

 

 

[Masked Koopa]

2 minutes ago, arubaro said:

See? You dont think wurt is weak and needs a buff, you simply suggest a buff because you think that another character is better in 1 task...that isnt a good reason to buff a perfect balanced character, even less when we talk about wurt and her 373626261748482^100 perks

I am scaling my expectations according to what is already in the game. I do not think that is unreasonable at all. There are plenty of things in the game that I would have never advocated for being added, but because Klei added them it justified other changes. If Klei has content that raises the bar, I will expect similar content to meet that bar. If Klei instead lowers the bar that is fine by me as well.

[arubaro]

3 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I am scaling my expectations according to what is already in the game. I do not think that is unreasonable at all. There are plenty of things in the game that I would have never advocated for being added, but because Klei added them it justified other changes. If Klei has content that raises the bar, I will expect similar content to meet that bar. If Klei instead lowers the bar that is fine by me as well.

So if klei makes a mistake they should make it grow and extend to other pieces of content? Great, 10/10 game

10 minutes ago, marshyds said:

its moreso that wurt is just kinda boring, even lategame with her "interesting" billion perks, which include:

1) Buff pigmen that can now chop stumps

2) Buff pigmen that can kill most bosses and enemies quick

3) A merm king buff that still doesnt aid wurt much besides just having better stats, while also making merms invincible (The questline itself is really cool though.)

4) Merm king trades that ammount to gold, mediocre seeds and stuff to expand your already giant army.

5) Amphibian perks that just help her stats even more, even if the temperature part is neat

6) Armor to make your invincible army even more invincible.

7) Merms that can till soil, which is pretty cool to be honest.

8) Mosquito perks that are decent but still are mostly for combat, which wurt already excels at lategame.

 

 

Well, fun is subjective but i agree 

That is the problem of deciding in the last minute to do skill trees to fix underwhelming characters while not nerfing powerful ones and add what was nerfed into the skill tree

Wait for maxwell,  either he gets the most boring and unispired tree like wolfgang or he gets one that makes him even more ridiculous