The truth about "swap characters"

[chaosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Have those plenty of other characters been reworked/given skill trees yet?

Winonas swap utility is in her trusty duct tape and the new heat giving spotlights.

But I’d love to know who the plenty of characters you’re speaking of actually are.

I wrote out a response to this, but frankly I've defended my position on this all over the forums, and all I ever get back is that "winona needs to feel special" meanwhile there are gameplay loops being removed with this change that effects real players/people.

[JustExo]

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Have those plenty of other characters been reworked/given skill trees yet?

Yes, Willow, bernie's great, incredibly well designed in that Willow can get full benefits from him, but other characters only get the base version. Easily the best character item in the game design wise imo

 

Woodie also comes to mind, as having a budget walking cane is INCREDIBLY good in worlds with only the singular mactusk, but he's also not seen as a swap character. Almost like having special perks associated with the character that impact the day to day are a good way for the character to stand out or something, idk I've only given this thought for the entirety of my playing Winona so... what do I know 

[Frosty_Mentos]

Let's just call it that Winona's a failure in your eyes for that it didn't work out how you wanted, but personally she only needs a couple of perks for spotlight and I'd call her pretty solid. I've had a decently good time playing her and her catapult support fire does well what they are intended for. Only that her alignment skills mostly suck unless it's Charlie route rn. Not a swap character as much anymore unless for that double crafting speed since she's an excellent character for base building.

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Yes, Willow, bernie's great, incredibly well designed in that Willow can get full benefits from him, but other characters only get the base version. Easily the best character item in the game design wise imo

 

Woodie also comes to mind, as having a budget walking cane is INCREDIBLY good in worlds with only the singular mactusk, but he's also not seen as a swap character. Almost like having special perks associated with the character that impact the day to day are a good way for the character to stand out or something, idk I've only given this thought for the entirety of my playing Winona so... what do I know 

So small Bernie and walking canes are your best examples? What does that make Winona’s Duct Tape and Heated Spotlights then?

The Catapults are the main heart and core of her playstyle, it’s almost like wanting to be able to eat itchy moose totems as someone other than Woodie…

Wigfrids Commander Helms hold better weight in this conversation, but even those can only be repaired while being used by Wigfrid.

And there’s these:

https://dontstarve.wiki.gg/wiki/Battle_Rönd#:~:text=Successfully blocking an attack decreases,"Battle Rönd" skill.”
 

https://dontstarve.wiki.gg/wiki/Elding_Spear#:~:text=It can only be equipped,Spear Enhancement II" skill.”

 

Please read and pay attention to the part that says “Only Wigfrid with the skill to craft them can equip them”

and yet… Winona’s Catapults need to still be useable by Non-Winona’s why exactly?

[chaosmonkey]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

and yet… Winona’s Catapults need to still be useable by Non-Winona’s why exactly?

Because most people want it that way (polls are regularly showing 60% in favor, 40% not in favor). Because we've invested time into that mechanic in long term worlds as it's been a staple of DST for years. Because she has compelling incentives to play her directly now, unlike before the skill tree. Because it's removing gameplay loops and synergies we otherwise employee.

Why do they need to be restricted, exactly? The reason everyone says is "so that winona is special", "because it's not fair to winona", "because swapping is bad". But some of us think swapping is good and that Winona has lots of incentives to play her now without restricting basic catapults from other survivors.

[Mike23Ua]

All ima say is when other Non-Wigfrid characters can equip and use the battle rond and Elden spear or Walters slingshots, only then do I feel Winona’s Catapults should ever had been shared.

[JustExo]

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And there’s these:

https://dontstarve.wiki.gg/wiki/Battle_Rönd#:~:text=Successfully blocking an attack decreases,"Battle Rönd" skill.”
 

https://dontstarve.wiki.gg/wiki/Elding_Spear#:~:text=It can only be equipped,Spear Enhancement II" skill.”

The things I've only seen people complain about being character exclusive
 

 

20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The Catapults are the main heart and core of her playstyle, it’s almost like wanting to be able to eat itchy moose totems as someone other than Woodie…

Which is why the character should get more because the main complaint that people have had is that the character gets boring once you finish placing her structures down.

 

20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

and yet… Winona’s Catapults need to still be useable by Non-Winona’s why exactly?

Because they're an insanely high resource sink, and because most players want them to be useable by everyone, with a majority of those people wanting some way for Winona to use them in her own distinct and unique way, which is what people assumed the remote was going to be.

[Frosty_Mentos]

4 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Because they're an insanely high resource sink, and because most players want them to be useable by everyone, with a majority of those people wanting some way for Winona to use them in her own distinct and unique way, which is what people assumed the remote was going to be.

Spend a couple of days of rock mining or three and you'll be set for life on catapults. Need at best 8 of them, 2 generators and if you feel fancy a spotlight and you can solo anything.

[Mysterious box]

56 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Almost like having special perks associated with the character that impact the day to day are a good way for the character to stand out or something, idk I've only given this thought for the entirety of my playing Winona so... what do I know 

So her remaining shared crafts don't count?

 

10 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Which is why the character should get more because the main complaint that people have had is that the character gets boring once you finish placing her structures down.

This was addressed by making them mobile.

 

11 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Because they're an insanely high resource sink, and because most players want them to be useable by everyone, with a majority of those people wanting some way for Winona to use them in her own distinct and unique way, which is what people assumed the remote was going to be.

Honestly it's not really that insane even more so with the existence of stone fruit and them now being mobile meaning you could techinically reuse your builds if you didn't want to grind a ton of them.

[Sir Noel]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

This was addressed by making them mobile.

Slight tangent but that wasn't really what he was saying, what Klei did to make Winona "unique" was making it so only she could use the catapults when she objectively needs more outside of those.

[chaosmonkey]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

So her remaining shared crafts don't count?

If they were unique and significantly better than alternatives then sure. They just aren't, though. Best part about tape is that it stacks. The light/heat lamp is completely useless in end game when swapping becomes a thing.

 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, chaosmonkey said:

If they were unique and significantly better than alternatives then sure. They just aren't, though. Best part about tape is that it stacks. The light/heat lamp is completely useless in end game when swapping becomes a thing.

 

Then you should probably address that with the rest of the cast first as most of what they offer is definitely worse than a infinite heat and light source and a multipurpose repair tool.

[Uedo]

38 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

and yet… Winona’s Catapults need to still be useable by Non-Winona’s why exactly?

You're literally not coming from the same position as anyone else, you just don't understand at all. 

The catapults prior required the area to be loaded to function, characters load an area they occupy, Winona has never had to 'share' her catapults, they're standalone. 

Take two seconds and read what people are talking about before you throw your 2 cents in, it's so irritating to go through page-upon-page where people have to pause the discussion to correct your misunderstandings, it real feels deliberate at times Mike. I have nothing against you at all, but it's difficult to have these types of conversations when they constantly get derailed.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Sir Noel said:

Slight tangent but that wasn't really what he was saying, what Klei did to make Winona "unique" was making it so only she could use the catapults when she objectively needs more outside of those.

Worker robot, heated spotlights, teleportation device, I mean… it’s about the same amount of stuff Willow got in her rework/skill tree.

Speaking of: Only Willow can use the lighter to absorb fires after they’ve started, but anyone can equip the lighter as a slightly better torch.

Meanwhile, Wilson gets slightly better torch duration in his skill tree, but the torches he crafts and gives to others don’t share that duration increase.

People are stuck on Winona’s Catapults, but Maybe I should suggest all characters being able to Yeet Wolfgang’s dumbells at Birds and Rabbits- it is after all hella convenient for him.

[Mysterious box]

10 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

Slight tangent but that wasn't really what he was saying, what Klei did to make Winona "unique" was making it so only she could use the catapults when she objectively needs more outside of those.

I mean I would prefer she got extra inventions but being able to setup a mobile defense style gameplay with her exclusive catapults with new ways to control them, a mobile spotlight you can use for hands free light while you do work or fight in the area with your other inventions, being able to take Winbot with you to gather resources while you work, being able to warp around the map, and being able to learn items without having to craft them seems pretty unique to me I personally really enjoy it.

To summarize it looks like a small change but it definitely flips the experience on it's head depending on your perspective.

[chaosmonkey]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean I would prefer she got extra inventions but being able to setup a mobile defense style gameplay with her exclusive catapults with new ways to control them, a mobile spotlight you can use for hands free light while you do work in a area, being able to take Winbot with you to gather resources while you work, being able to warp around the map, and being able to learn items without having to craft them seems pretty unique to me I personally really enjoy it.

she gets all of that regardless, just delete the word exclusive and everyone is happy

[Mojmaowo]

19 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Spend a couple of days of rock mining or three and you'll be set for life on catapults. Need at best 8 of them, 2 generators and if you feel fancy a spotlight and you can solo anything.

You don't need catapults to solo anything you can do that with a single hambat so hambat should be wilson only to make it balanced

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

she gets all of that regardless, just delete the word exclusive and everyone is happy

Honestly if her bottom shelf were base kit and they replaced it with new skills everyone probably would but in its current state I can't agree.

It fixes some issues but it's not enough of a leap on its own as I've said before if Klei moved away from catapults being her primary ability it would be less of a issue. To try to explain again there's a difference between letting everyone use the codex umbra and letting everyone use Walter's tent.

[Sir Noel]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

People are stuck on Winona’s Catapults, but Maybe I should suggest all characters being able to Yeet Wolfgang’s dumbells at Birds and Rabbits- it is after all hella convenient for him.

12 skills are dedicated to catapults buffs and management, that's nearly half of all her skills. There is clearly an emphasis on catapults in the skill tree.

I like what we got with the lunar/shadow perks but we could have had more, there is genuinely so much space if you condense the first and second shelves that are mostly number buffs and generator QoL.

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean I would prefer she got extra inventions but being able to setup a mobile defense style gameplay with her exclusive catapults with new ways to control them, a mobile spotlight you can use for hands free light while you do work in a area, being able to take Winbot with you to gather resources while you work, being able to warp around the map, and being able to learn items without having to craft them seems pretty unique to me I personally really enjoy it.

I enjoy it too, but I guess I was just expecting more new machines for her, or at least some gadgets outside of the third shelf. Maybe I am asking for too much though...

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

I enjoy it too, but I guess I was just expecting more new machines for her. Maybe I am asking for too much though...

We probably are but hey I won't deny what we got really did scratch that itch for me and made me wanting more regardless...

[JustExo]

13 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

Maybe I am asking for too much though...

The biggest thing I'm upset about in regards to this new skill tree is that; nobody was really asking for catapults to be better, they just wanted winona to get more, which is why the approach they took is so confusing to me. It's like; nobody was complaining that catapults were too weak, they were complaining that Winona was boring outside of her one trick.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, JustExo said:

The biggest thing I'm upset about in regards to this new skill tree is that; nobody was really asking for catapults to be better, they just wanted winona to get more, which is why the approach they took is so confusing to me. It's like; nobody was complaining that catapults were too weak, they were complaining that Winona was boring outside of her one trick.

True but I do think attempting to make this aspect about her people mainly picked her for and focused on more interesting was still a good idea to give her a broader appeal as many people liked the concept of the catapults more than their execution previously. They definitely went too far with it but it I don't think it was too misguided of a choice.

[Frosty_Mentos]

2 hours ago, Mojmaowo said:

You don't need catapults to solo anything you can do that with a single hambat so hambat should be wilson only to make it balanced

That's not balance, that's boring. You prefer doing same kiting patterns for 30 minutes be my guest XD I prefer bosses to get destroyed fast efficient if they are designed in basic and or poor states. Since combat in this game is not developed to be most exciting, the bosses are the ones that do the heavy lifting of making it actually exciting, in particular - the modern DS/T bosses.

2 hours ago, JustExo said:

The biggest thing I'm upset about in regards to this new skill tree is that; nobody was really asking for catapults to be better, they just wanted winona to get more, which is why the approach they took is so confusing to me. It's like; nobody was complaining that catapults were too weak, they were complaining that Winona was boring outside of her one trick.

Klei is working on making alignment catapult powers different and powerful at the same time, which honestly is not bad. They feel already pretty powerful when in her hands, no other character needs catapults in particular for them to be used. Winona still has great swap uses for mass farming and automation and that's pretty good imo, now she's just even better. Winona was kinda boring outside of her only trick, having a remote does feel like she needs a bit of work to make things work. Now she has a hand in everything and those are HER gadgets that she uses most efficiently.

So I dunno what else is there needed to be buffed for her besides making spotlights have more functions than just lighting players. She feels a lot more active than before imo. Never felt more enjoyable face tanking bee queen while watching her squirm against 8 catapults blasting her to death. Or dragonfly even.

[Cyrefy]

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Since combat in this game is not developed to be most exciting, the bosses are the ones that do the heavy lifting of making it actually exciting, in particular - the modern DS/T bosses.

What I like most about the new bosses is that you end up moving around a lot more, which makes combat much more fun.

[Frosty_Mentos]

2 minutes ago, Cyrefy said:

What I like most about the new bosses is that you end up moving around a lot more, which makes combat much more fun.

That is very true! That's the reason why modern bosses been so well received and are a great proof of concept to what older ones could become to feel a lot more epic of battles. I think Crab King rework feels quite interesting and nice, they did put a lot more variety to his appearance and abilities. I still think he should blow up boats with fissures just to make players move around a little more.