This sure is an update. That exists.

[Theukon-dos]

Before anything else, I want to clarify that I was genuinely looking forward to this update. I am one of the whole 3 sailing fans. And while I dislike skill trees as a concept, Winona was one of the first characters to be refreshed. And the teaser showed some decent promise.

Now, all that being said? This update blows.
 

First, let's talk Winona's skill tree. This thing is awful. I like the tool box aesthetic, I'll give it that. But there's just so much... nothing in here. And to illustrate the problem, I made a handy color-coded chart of the branch.

Perks circled in blue are basic QoL perks that really should just be part of the base kit.

Perks circled in red are basic stat buffs that add nothing to the gameplay experience.

Perks circled in orange are new features, but nothing particularly defining.

And the perks circled in purple are the things that are actually fun.

As seen here, the vast majority of Winona's perks are filler that only serve as number buffs. But Winona didn't need numbers buffs, she needed things to do. The new fuel perks are a bit more interesting. But you're not going to see a huge effect from them for some time.

Also, why does the skill tree only seem to care about Winona's Generators and Catapults? The Spotlight gets like, 3 perks down at the bottom and nothing else. 'Nor do any of her crafting perks get represented on there.  That could have been a fun branch to have, one that makes Winona's "Work harder at the cost of hunger" perk extend into other actions like chopping, mining, or harvesting. I'd love something like that personally.

Now, where things get interesting are Winona's alignment perks. Is it the good kind of interesting? Not really! That being said, I do think it's interesting how Winona can get the first tier of these alignments without committing to that side. It does make sense given her history and gives her a bit more flexibility.

Now. First I want to talk her Lunar alignment. This one gives Winona the ability to locate loot stashes set up by Wagstaff to steal the stuff within. Said stuff is... basically only scrap, along with a couple other parts that will be useful with the second part of her affinity, which lets her find advanced caches that hold the items she needs to unlock her new structures, the which are the teleporter and associated telebrella from the teaser. I've heard she can also use the items found within to prototype any items she finds without needing to craft them herself? But that doesn't feel very useful, even early game.

Now, important question here. Why are the only new structures in Winona's kit just her reverse engineering Wagstaff's gizmos? She is a capable engineer in and of herself. The fact that she can't come up with any new structures or gadgets on her own just feels weird.

 

But then we have the shadow side. What the hell is going on with the shadow side?

First part? You get glasses that give you a worse version of Hamlet's treasure hunting mechanic that can get you some cheap nightmare fuel. Insepct an object, spawn some "dark vestiges", and interact with them. Honestly, I don't mind this. Nightmare fuel is easy to get, but it's helpful early game and It's atleast something you use unlike Scrap. But Tier 2 is where things start to go off the rails.

Now, I imagine most people here don't actually know what Winona's shadow affinity does. Because the perk's description is comically vague, and because it actually does a lot of very disjointed things. So to list everything that I know it does; becuase there could very easily be more things it can do. Winona's shadow affinity lets you:

> Find Pure Horror from dark vestiges. Again, I don't mind this effect. Though as a quick aside, I do find it weird how Klei keeps making Pure Horror so much more Accessible than Pure Brilliance. This is the third pre-rift source of Pure Horror they've added. But the earliest you can get Pure Brilliance is by playing Wilson to transmute charged moon glass, which is itself only available after starting the moon storm. As far as Winona's concerned though, this does mean that you can access Planar-boosted generators way, way earlier with shadow than with lunar. But that's easy to fix by just putting Pure Brilliance into the advanced loot caches.

>Complete immunity to Charlie's attacks. I like this actually. It's not useful sense you can't do anything while in complete darkness and you still loose a ton of sanity. But thematically it does work really well.

>Inspect the shore of a tile to make a vine bridge up to 3 tiles long. Umm... Ok? That's very weird for a Winona perk. It's a nice QoL change, I'll admit. But  that's not something that really makes sense for Winona. Obviously this is because it's Charlie pulling the strings. But alright, sure.

>Can Re-Route Wormholes to different Wormholes. I beg your pardon? She can do what now? I admit, I do understand why this one is here. Winona's teleporter is locked behind Wagstaff's half of the tree. And that alone would probably make Lunar completely outclass Shadow, as is par for the course. But once again, this really isn't a Winona perk. I do like the idea behind it. But I think a better way of executing that would have been to have Charlie help Winona reverse-engineer some aspects of the constant instead of simply doing everything for her. For example, instead of re-routing existing wormholes, Charlie could have given Winona the secret to make her own artificial wormholes. You've got the same thematic and mechanical effect. Charlie is playing favorites and Shadow-affinity has its own teleportation ability. But it's still Winona taking the initiative here instead of Charlie.

>Winona can closely inspect a flower to turn it into a fragile rose. Having this item in your inventory when you die will cause Charlie to pull you to the Celestial Postern and revive you with all your items.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

Genuine question Klei. What where you thinking with this? Didn't you already learn that giving characters a cheap revival option was a bad idea after giving Wanda the second chance watch? And now you've gone and given Winona a revive that is literally free? And that she can get what? every half-day? I know you're trying to make the game easier for new players. But this is just one toke over the line if you ask me. Why even have dying as a mechanic at that point if reviving is that easy.

 

All and all. Winona's skill tree is basically all filler to gate the actual fun and interesting stuff. And said fun and interesting stuff is also so back-loaded that it ends up bordering OP. Well, Shadow affinity does anyways, Lunar is kind of whatever. I just don't understand why the engineer character has no engineering perks outside of Wagstaff's stuff.

And that doesn't have to mean new buildings. Winona could very much have a series of gadgets or equipables that only she can use. Like, say, a helmet that would automatically craft recipes with items from Winona's inventory. Pair that with a lazy forager to automatically turn your entire tree farm into a nice pile of lumber. Or a follower that you could carry heavy objects for you. Things like that would have been great additions to Winona's kit. So it's a shame that we got nothing of the sort.

 

Now let's talk about the ocean.

To clarify, I did NOT expect this one update to fix the ocean through and through. It has a lot of deep-rooted problems, and this was advertised as a QoL update. So I only expected as much. And y'know what? There are some damn good QoL features here. I like the buffs to barnacle and fig dishes, though the fact that you STILL can't make Seafood Gumbo without eels is astonishing to me. Salt is actually something I'd want to go for now that navigating the brine pool isn't horrible. And overall, there are a lot of nice changes.

 

HOWEVER. There is one part of the update that I was looking forward to above all else. Again, I don't think this would have fixed the ocean. But it would have gotten damn close. And that is the changes to Sunken Treasure.

So let's bitch about why they still suck.

First, the actual loot pools; as far as I can tell at least; haven't been been updated beyond the three new additions. This is quite the shame in my opinion. Sunken chests where made a lot easier to find, but weren't actually made worth finding. I'm not saying that sunken chests should have ruins-tier loot. Atleast not consistently. But they could still be a fun way to have some rare or out of the way resources and items in them. Things that would make the player go "oh cool" instead of sighing because this is the third time they've gotten a chest full of boat supplies.

As for those new items though, the archaic boat is ffffffffine. I think it would be nice if it was a bit bigger. Something like 10-20%. The storage hold is nice, but boats technically have infinite storage anyways sense you can just drop items on them. But I respect the QoL feature. But then we also have surprise seeds. And I don't know how, but Klei somehow managed to make these things SUCK.

Now yes. These are VERY powerful plants in concept. Stonesprout trees can grow every gem, including ruins gems. And hands-free night vision is a very nice perk as well. But y'know, I still don't think that fully justifies how much of a hassel they are to get.

For starters, they're rare. Obviously, they should be. But not only are they rare, but the chance to actually get them scales with how old the world is. So if you decide to spend your first winter sailing because you thought it would be fun? Yeah you're not getting any surprise seeds. I don't know the exact scaling, but you don't get the best chance to find them until day 200 for some reason. And just... why? Yeah, they're powerful. But if the player wants to go out of their way to get them early. Why shouldn't they? You can get in and out of the ruins by day 6 with a mountain of fat, powerful loot. So why arbitrarily lock the player off from similarly powerful loot? And yeah, sure. The ruins are dangerous, but the ocean is slow, and chests are still pretty rare all things considered.

But then you actually get the seeds. You want to know how you grow them?

First, you need to find the right turf. Stonesprout Trees and Gloomthorn trees only grow on rocky turf and marsh turf respectively. This is a fine drawback it makes sense. Though it does kind of ruin the surprise factor of "surprise seeds" sense planting them intrinsically associates a seed with what it'll grow into. But I digress.

But that's not enough. Not only do Surprise Seeds need to be planted on the right turf, but they also need to be in the right season to grow. Summer for Stonesprouts, and Winter for Gloomthorns. But NOT ONLY THAT, they also take so long to grow that they can't go from seed to mature in a single season. So even if you do get your hands on them, it'll take another 2 years minimum just to see the fruits of your labor. Both metaphorical and physical. So, not only do you have to wait 200 days to get a decent odd at finding the surprise seeds, you also need to wait another 200 days after that just to start seeing return on your investment. Genuinely. Why? These trees are not so powerful to justify only being usable by long-term mega base worlds. If anything, being locked behind long-term megabase worlds is probably worse, sense anyone who can get that far has probably already killed Ancient Fuelweaver and cleared the ruins more times than I can count. And thus has chests upon chests full of gems.

 

I've mentioned briefly that it often feels like Klei is allergic to the ocean having nice things. And these seeds are a textbook example of what I mean by that. The ocean can't just "have" stuff. It has to come with so many catches and caveats that you'd have a more straightforward time trying to sell your soul. And I have first hand experience on that matter.

Salt gives you a more effective way to store perishable goods? Can only hold raw ingredients.

Above-Average trees give you a way to protect your base against wildfires? Can only be grown on the shore line.

Monkey Island has movable reeds, bananas, and gives access to docks? Better hope you don't become a monkey yourself.

 

It's just baffling how the price of getting resources from the ocean can't just be "It's from the ocean". Because that is, indeed, a price. Sailing is a fairly slow and methodological process. There's a lot of area out on the water that you may have to scour thoroughly before finding anything you're looking for. And if you're doing that, you're not doing anything that will likely have a much faster turn around on investment and be more effective in general.

 

Not to sound too harsh. But these are the same developers that looked at Maxwell, decided that his refresh should buff him to such absurd heights that it's honestly kind of comical. And then decide that he still needs a skill tree on top of that. Why can't the part of the game that genuinely needs strong content get that strong content when everything else around it is buffed to high heaven and then some? In many ways, it's genuinely kind of astounding.

[Mr Giggio]

The thing that I keep thinking is the fact they said "we need more time to cook"  and then time passes and they serve it half baked.

Im like ??????????? ... okay D:
Probably issue was they indeed are being bold and choosing to do bigger steps like u can see that the end game ones has a lot going on but then when its about to wrap it up as a whole it feels unfinished cuz it was rushed

WHEN TOLD

THAT MORE TIME WAS NEEDED

AND TOOK THE TIME TO DO SO

Why it is still in a loop xD

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

>Winona can closely inspect a flower to turn it into a fragile rose. Having this item in your inventory when you die will cause Charlie to pull you to the Celestial Postern and revive you with all your items.

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Genuine question Klei. What where you thinking with this? Didn't you already learn that giving characters a cheap revival option was a bad idea after giving Wanda the second chance watch? And now you've gone and given Winona a revive that is literally free? And that she can get what? every half-day? I know you're trying to make the game easier for new players. But this is just one toke over the line if you ask me. Why even have dying as a mechanic at that point if reviving is that easy

Excuse me what!? Half a day?

I will say that it is weird that Wurt comes off as more creative resourceful with building than Wanda in this considering its assumed she comes up with her skill tree crafts herself...

[Uedo]

It's like the 5/6 time this has happened, more time won't help - whilst I agree, they should have as much time as they think they need. Everything is half-baked, each time it's evident Klei do not have a cohesive vision for the project, it's a vague mix-match of ideas that feel like someone said in the office 'Hey, guys, wouldn't it be cool if x,y,z?'.

If they have a vision of what they want the game to be like, it's really hard to see it - this is either them not having a solid plan, or they can't demonstrate it. It's their game though, fun enough, but sometimes the choices made are just awkward and don't feel quite right.

[abrocator]

It’s good that they didn’t just lean into the catapults for everything and instead gave her things beyond crafting structures. But overall I agree that it’s too much stats boosting. I’ve never really played Winona and I don’t see a space for her in my playing with this update.

[Wormboi]

Yikes this feels like the willow and wigfried update all over again.

(I wonder if wurt and winnoa arent getting shorts too)

[chincer]

honestly, now i fear what they gonna do with walter, his kit is already a bit of everything and then some

this honestly feel a bit like walter base kit in a way, a lot of thematic perks but without a clear cohesion 

[Wormboi]

4 minutes ago, chincer said:

honestly, now i fear what they gonna do with walter, his kit is already a bit of everything and then some

this honestly feel a bit like walter base kit in a way, a lot of thematic perks but without a clear cohesion 

Imagine what thery're gonna do with Maxwell.

[goblinball]

3 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Not to sound too harsh.

The audacity required to say this after phrasing your entire post in the most disrespectful and harsh way possible.

criticism and feedback are important but like this isn’t an avgn episode man you really don’t need to go “what were they thinking?! This free update is terrible!” directly to the devs. At least try to be considerate.

[Waywarbler]

I feel like you're slamming this as if this were a fully-released update. The beta has only just started, there's still plenty of time for feedback and tweaking.

[Gashzer]

2 hours ago, chincer said:

honestly, now i fear what they gonna do with walter, his kit is already a bit of everything and then some

this honestly feel a bit like walter base kit in a way, a lot of thematic perks but without a clear cohesion 

Same, winona and wurt were both powerful before the skill tree update tho. Yeah winona was a switch char but her catapults delete bosses and now with the skill tree, deletes them even easier.

Walter however needs much more powerful skills to make up for being one of the weaker characters.

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Same, winona and wurt were both powerful before the skill tree update tho. Yeah winona was a switch chat but her catapults delete bosses and now with the skiltree delete them even easier.

Walter however needs much more powerful skills to make up for being one of the weaker characters.

I kinda expect him to get a Willow or Woodie style skill tree.

[Anis5240]

Me sitting at the corner with other Wilson players/mains: "Hah, first time? Getting let down by Klei?" Big deal. 

[Primalflower]

i'm gonna die all red circled things are majorly impactful to me

[arubaro]

11 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

i'm gonna die all red circled things are majorly impactful to me

Are just stats change, nothing fun or needed

Wolfgang’s tree suffers from this

[Primalflower]

2 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Are just stats change, nothing fun or needed

they're all significant upgrades that change how exactly you approach catapults and you don't have nearly enough to spec into them all while still retaining alignment X_X its as compelling as skill trees get i like winona so good rn im gonna diieeee

[Anis5240]

Also, can we talk about Wurt's skill tree that has 28 slots INSTEAD OF 25????

[arubaro]

2 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

they're all significant upgrades that change how exactly you approach catapults and you don't have nearly enough to spec into them all while still retaining alignment X_X its as compelling as skill trees get i like winona so good rn im gonna diieeee

Is boring 

[Mike23Ua]

12 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Is boring 

I wouldn’t exactly call it boring… You have any idea how helpful heated spotlights will actually be in helping keep newbie players alive in winter?

Not everything about a character rework or skill tree has to be crazy good, some of these things won’t matter much to veteran players, but to newbies they can be god send alternative ways to do things.

The Wurt skill tree I’m a little confused about, (like if I spec upgrade 1 & then I spec upgrade 2 do I still have access to the cosmetics of upgrade 2?) Skill trees can be majorly confusing & add extra bloat to the characters, but since Wurts entire character design is all about building Merm Villages, I kinda figured Wurt mains would appreciate the new Merm village cosmetics.

I would just like to know if I spec Merm house upgrade 1 if I can still build upgrade 1 houses if I also unlock Merm house upgrade 2

[GreenBowers]

So, day one of the beta, instead of providing any constructive criticisms, you make a thread thats needlessly agressively ranting about the stuff in the update and provide nothing worthwhile besides, 'the shadow alignment teleport feature should just be the same as the lunar alignment teleport feature.'

Nah. Dont cook.

[arubaro]

32 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I wouldn’t exactly call it boring… You have any idea how helpful heated spotlights will actually be in helping keep newbie players alive in winter?

Not everything about a character rework or skill tree has to be crazy good, some of these things won’t matter much to veteran players, but to newbies they can be god send alternative ways to do things.

The Wurt skill tree I’m a little confused about, (like if I spec upgrade 1 & then I spec upgrade 2 do I still have access to the cosmetics of upgrade 2?) Skill trees can be majorly confusing & add extra bloat to the characters, but since Wurts entire character design is all about building Merm Villages, I kinda figured Wurt mains would appreciate the new Merm village cosmetics.

I would just like to know if I spec Merm house upgrade 1 if I can still build upgrade 1 houses if I also unlock Merm house upgrade 2

??? Im just talking about bland stat perks. Precisely the heat from the spotlight isnt that and even enters in the category of "fun little thing that provides a twist in some gameplay area that might make someone choose it over other"

Stat boost are simple, vague and unfun

[wormwood123]

THE HEATLAMP IS THE BEST UPGRAGE ON THIS SKILLTREE FOR THE SIMPLE FACT OF TEMPRATURE IN SUMMER BEING HARD TO GET AROUND AND THE HEATLAMP AVOIDS THIS entirely THE FACT THAT YOU DONT EVEN MENTION IT ONCE OFFENDS ME AND ITS A NEAR OFFENCE TO ALL OF HUMANITY -SHMINGUS

[Theukon-dos]

25 minutes ago, wormwood123 said:

THE HEATLAMP IS THE BEST UPGRAGE ON THIS SKILLTREE FOR THE SIMPLE FACT OF TEMPRATURE IN SUMMER BEING HARD TO GET AROUND AND THE HEATLAMP AVOIDS THIS entirely THE FACT THAT YOU DONT EVEN MENTION IT ONCE OFFENDS ME AND ITS A NEAR OFFENCE TO ALL OF HUMANITY -SHMINGUS

Elaborate please.

[lowercase skye]

6 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Though as a quick aside, I do find it weird how Klei keeps making Pure Horror so much more Accessible than Pure Brilliance. This is the third pre-rift source of Pure Horror they've added. But the earliest you can get Pure Brilliance is by playing Wilson to transmute charged moon glass, which is itself only available after starting the moon storm. As far as Winona's concerned though, this does mean that you can access Planar-boosted generators way, way earlier with shadow than with lunar. But that's easy to fix by just putting Pure Brilliance into the advanced loot caches.

is this a problem? the lunar side of things is the more powerful option currently, so being able to get 2/3 of the shadow materials pre-rifts (dreadstone and pure horror) gives you a small boost towards the less powerful side should you choose to prioritize it. plus, dreadstone armor is planar and you've been able to get it pre-rifts since it was first added because rifts didn't even exist yet. i think it's fine.

[wormwood123]

10 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Elaborate please.

OK