Winona's Skilltree isn't great...

[JustExo]

A lot of the perks feel like they were there to pad out the skill tree, and feel like they should have been bundled together in one skill, if not just added to her as a basekit feature (packing up and moving structures, and snooze mode are particular standouts)

Most of these skills are simply number buffs, which are very much not what Winona needs to become a standout character, and should have been approached in the same vein as Willow's skill tree, where she gets more perks that are intrinsic to her. 

The only perks that really follow that philosophy are the last row of skills, which gives Winona unique options and items that are fun and interesting to use. 

But those skills are just overshadowed by the bog that is the perks that preceded them. 

TLDR: most of the skills feel like a slog to get through, and the only saving grace is the payoff at the end which doesnt make up for the mediocre roots.

[GreenBowers]

I don't think I agree. Most of the additions are both useful and welcome.

[Jakepeng99]

The skilltree seemed really confusing for me. (Not nessarly a critisism)

[flamboyant wolf]

I do think energy saver should be base kit, at least.

 

[GamePlayer42]

i think spotlights were still a letdown too ngl

[Ruperstiltskin]

They even said that some stuff would be base kit, i remember that sleep mode and dissasembling gonna be base kit as well as the remote...

[Zima Blue]

I'm especially disappointed with shadow seeker I and II. Charlie is her sister and all she can help her with is not attacking her in the dark? And the goggles only give you like 1 nightmare fuel, the lunar counterpart gives so much more scrap. I don't think its balanced at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Portasol only works if you upgrade Founders Keepers II, so if you side with Charlie you can't even use the teletransport? I might be wrong but I'm testing it right now and I can't make the teleport work while I'm on Charlie's side. 

Edit: Imo Shadow seeker II should also remove the sanity loss when you're in the dark with no lights. If Charlie is protecting you, why would you be scared?

[GamePlayer42]

26 minutes ago, Zima Blue said:

I'm especially disappointed with shadow seeker I and II. Charlie is her sister and all she can help her with is not attacking her in the dark? And the goggles only give you like 1 nightmare fuel, the lunar counterpart gives so much more scrap. I don't think its balanced at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Portasol only works if you upgrade Founders Keepers II, so if you side with Charlie you can't even use the teletransport? I might be wrong but I'm testing it right now and I can't make the teleport work while I'm on Charlie's side. 

Edit: Imo Shadow seeker II should also remove the sanity loss when you're in the dark with no lights. If Charlie is protecting you, why would you be scared?

shadow seeker 2 gives u a free revive if you use it on a rose, shadow seeker 1 allows u to make bridges too

also wormhole retargetting (?)

[Jakepeng99]

40 minutes ago, Zima Blue said:

If Charlie is protecting you, why would you be scared?

No, its a mental thing from real life. Darkness makes us lose sainity in real life, its why we lose sainity at dusk too. Also, she can't see anything that is scary.

 

[JustExo]

I should clarify, the number buffs aren't bad, but they take up so much of the skill tree because there are just so many of them, that it ends up taking up way too many points for something that gives a feeling of "Thats it?"

[Reiko24]

20 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

Has anyone tested the capabilities of the bridge? Because I only got them to work with max 3 tiles, which is... bad. I would rather just get the pure horror/fuel at that point.

Okay, everyone is saying "bridge", how do I do it?

[flamboyant wolf]

2 minutes ago, Reiko24 said:

Okay, everyone is saying "bridge", how do I do it?

put on the rose glasses, make sure they're not on cooldown, try to click as close to water as you can and activate the little whirly thing that appears. Might work, might just drop some fuel, because the targeting(?) is a bit weird and clumsy rn. (Honestly all these perks rose glasses have are somehow more cryptic than the cryptic founder's, they're not really intuitive)

[Reiko24]

1 minute ago, skile said:

put on the rose glasses, make sure they're not on cooldown, try to click as close to water as you can and activate the little whirly thing that appears. Might work, might just drop some fuel, because the targeting(?) is a bit weird and clumsy rn. (Honestly all these perks rose glasses have are somehow more cryptic than the cryptic founder's, they're not really intuitive)

okay ty

[GreenBowers]

1 hour ago, Zima Blue said:

I'm especially disappointed with shadow seeker I and II. Charlie is her sister and all she can help her with is not attacking her in the dark? And the goggles only give you like 1 nightmare fuel, the lunar counterpart gives so much more scrap. I don't think its balanced at all. And correct me if I'm wrong, but does the Portasol only works if you upgrade Founders Keepers II, so if you side with Charlie you can't even use the teletransport? I might be wrong but I'm testing it right now and I can't make the teleport work while I'm on Charlie's side. 

Edit: Imo Shadow seeker II should also remove the sanity loss when you're in the dark with no lights. If Charlie is protecting you, why would you be scared?

Free revives and teleporting to any wormhole on the map seem pretty decent to me.

[Reiko24]

5 minutes ago, GreenBowers said:

Free revives and teleporting to any wormhole on the map seem pretty decent to me.

it also gives you pure horror sporadically

[WereBruhver]

18 hours ago, GamePlayer42 said:

shadow seeker 2 gives u a free revive if you use it on a rose

It doesn't, you get the rose revive from Shadow seeker 1, you don't need Shadow seeker 2 for it. Shadow seeker 1 feels good to use while shadow seeker 2 is extremely underhelming.

 

Edit: Since yesterday's update to the beta they made it so the fragile will only revive you if you have the Shadow seeker 2 skill, you can still collect it with Shadow seeker 1 but it will only revive when you with the rose in your inventory if you have an insight point in Shadow seeker 2.

[Frosty_Mentos]

She feels fine for the most part and her abilities feel more like 'what flavor of winona you want right now?' kinda vibe.

I love her scavenger hunt lategame mechanic for extra parts and utility she brings with travel, generally her getting many buffs in using her tech from power to damage and commands you bring feel much more engaging so far.

Overall, she feels somehow fairly fun and decent now. Not the quick swap character as much anymore but a solid character to play as either doing the usual survival, boss rushing with or lategame megabaser default.

Lowkey, she kinda feels like Maxwell without the resource gathering part much. Great utility all around, more relaxed to play as.

[GreenBowers]

I agree, I think she's great. Probably one of the better skill trees even.

[Mortalbane]

1 hour ago, GreenBowers said:

I think she's great. Probably one of the better skill trees even.

Having to pay skill points for a +5% increase... I think we have a very different opinion on what great is

[GreenBowers]

7 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Having to pay skill points for a +5% increase... I think we have a very different opinion on what great is

Yeah we do, cause the skill tree is fine and its not bad to have % upgrades to make buildings better. 

[somethin]

11 hours ago, JustExo said:

TLDR: most of the skills feel like a slog to get through, and the only saving grace is the payoff at the end which doesnt make up for the mediocre roots.

Nona getting the ability to teleport/reroute wormhole is awesome already. What else do you even want from her...?

[kroban]

Bruh idk what you expect with skill trees, you expect it to have 20+ unique active abilities each one or what? I have played WoW and games of that style for like 10+years, im really used to seeing "talent trees" so I may be biased, but in most games it tends to be that these trees have some unique abilities at the end of branches BUT most of it is just %, numbers, and even QoL improvements of the existing kit.

Also Klei devs themselves said a lot of times that the skill trees here are basically a tuning up for the characters. And all of them have an established kit, so by logic we are not going to have 15 insight points of just brand new active abilities.

In Winona's case it was pretty expected that she was going to have "QoL points" (generators not wasting energy while sleep, better spotlights) and the classic "+5/10/20% damage/fire rate" points. For me Klei did an awesome job with her skill tree, it improved everything on her kit, while adding A LOT more to it (tps, bridges, revive, special attack, a way to control catapults, a way to copy prototypes, and hell even a minigame with caches)

 

8 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Having to pay skill points for a +5% increase... I think we have a very different opinion on what great is

 The 5% perk exists to make the next 2 upgrades more costly, 10% buff will cost 2 points rather than 1, while 20% will cost 3. Of course Klei could have just gone for 1 perk adding 20% damage, but then you would have wasted 1 insight point rather than 3, which breaks the purpose of what a skill tree is supposed to be.

Also 5% may seem low, but if you have like 40 catapults hitting at once a 5% upgrade is huge, let alone the whole 20%.

[Mortalbane]

2 hours ago, kroban said:

but then you would have wasted 1 insight point rather than 3, which breaks the purpose of what a skill tree is supposed to be.

So, purpose of skill tree is a skill point sink, and you are supposed to waste them instead of spending

3 hours ago, kroban said:

Also Klei devs themselves said a lot of times that the skill trees here are basically a tuning up for the characters. And all of them have an established kit, so by logic we are not going to have 15 insight points of just brand new active abilities.

Yes, that's what they said. But it doesn't mean it's a good approach. For some people it might be, not for me. I'd like 25 skill slots, each offering a new functionality, big or small. In my rework/skills suggestions i offer just that.
And i don't like that Klei are so afraid to touch characters, when some of them clearly require touching, and some skills they add clearly belong in the base kit

[Mortalbane]

3 hours ago, kroban said:

For me Klei did an awesome job with her skill tree, it improved everything on her kit, while adding A LOT more to it (tps, bridges, revive, special attack, a way to control catapults, a way to copy prototypes, and hell even a minigame with caches)

While i like catapult buffs and new gadgets, i don't like skill tree layout, and that those gadgets are all in affinity.
I never liked "pluses", when you spend point on +10 to something, starting from Diablo 1 (don't remember if i saw it earlier than that). This mechanic is only good for classic rogue-likes with short runs, when the goal is to make you get better by 1% each time. No other games should have that, cuz it sux, feels like a waste of skill tree slot.
It could be a matter of personal preference, but in my case - i could barely finish Diablo 2, but i've beaten Diablo 3 with all characters. Cuz i hated the system in former, and loved in the latter. Even though the style of D2 i liked more

[GreenBowers]

3 hours ago, kroban said:

Bruh idk what you expect with skill trees, you expect it to have 20+ unique active abilities each one or what?

For me Klei did an awesome job with her skill tree, it improved everything on her

i agree with mister Johnny Jo bro