Pressure can compress and liquefy

[NeoDeusMachina]

Everything I've read here so far is 100% speculation on all sides. No one here, as far as I am aware, seems to be on the development team. No one can guarantee that they truly know what is and isn't intended by design in ONI. Any "design" is reverse engineered from the game code, so saying the code agrees with the design is like saying the code agrees with itself. Honestly, can we agree to disagree and move on? There is no possible consensus as no one has the actual truth about game design. Arguing for the sake of arguing cannot possibly result in anything constructive. Or am I missing something?

[Henlikuoth]

As mentioned, the Escher waterfalls, partially submerged electrolyzers, etc., are not the main problem.

The problem is that those "designs" are used to accumulate infinite amounts of liquid and gas.

The easiest solution might be to let the game delete liquid and gas amounts per tile as soon as they breach a certain threshold, whereby this threshold is determined by Klei, but it should be close to the regular amount. 

This might be the best solution in the current game system. 

[GluttonyMain]

6 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

the Escher waterfalls, partially submerged electrolyzers, etc., are not the main problem

I disagree, thats the main unintuitive thing, and in case of escher waterfalls can be stumbled upon by accident.

[Henlikuoth]

2 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

I disagree, thats the main unintuitive thing, and in case of escher waterfalls can be stumbled upon by accident.

It would be okay for me if Klei removed the possibility of those things happening in the game. 

However, some people here claim that it is an "inevitable" consequence of how the game mechanics are designed or coded.

Only the Klei developers with access to all information can evaluate this claim.

Regardless, if the amount of gas and liquid were limited per tile, it would considerably mitigate the effects and possible exploitative nature of the Escher waterfall, etc., especially concerning infinite amounts. 

8 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

Or am I missing something?

This discussion hopefully triggers Klei to find ways to resolve all the issues and concerns that have been tackled. 

[Prince Mandor]

On 5/27/2024 at 4:40 PM, GluttonyMain said:

liquid shoudl swap with the gas

I wrote it already, I write it once more. While exiting from vent or falling from edge liquid exist in droplet form and don't occupy any cell. Liquid don't exist in game mechanic at this moment just teleporting down to nearest solid tile or tile with more "down-sorted" liquid. So with what you want to swap gas? With nothing?

On 5/27/2024 at 4:40 PM, GluttonyMain said:

I have, you just dont like it.

Excuse me, but there are exactly defined edge between proof and speculation. For lot of people nothing broken here, but you insist on "bug" theory and you cannot explain it "to 5 years old" or prove it by logic sentences. So, no, you haven't.

[GluttonyMain]

17 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

On 5/27/2024 at 3:40 PM, GluttonyMain said:

liquid shoudl swap with the gas

I wrote it already, I write it once more. While exiting from vent or falling from edge liquid exist in droplet form and don't occupy any cell. Liquid don't exist in game mechanic at this moment just teleporting down to nearest solid tile or tile with more "down-sorted" liquid. So with what you want to swap gas? With nothing?

In that thread we were talking abotu escher waterfalls (check the quoted message).

[pnambic]

On 5/27/2024 at 4:08 PM, NeoDeusMachina said:

Everything I've read here so far is 100% speculation on all sides. No one here, as far as I am aware, seems to be on the development team. No one can guarantee that they truly know what is and isn't intended by design in ONI. Any "design" is reverse engineered from the game code, so saying the code agrees with the design is like saying the code agrees with itself. Honestly, can we agree to disagree and move on? There is no possible consensus as no one has the actual truth about game design. Arguing for the sake of arguing cannot possibly result in anything constructive. Or am I missing something?

Firstly, thanks for making me realize that I'm both too old for this crap, and obviously not competent enough to get my point across.

However. I respectfully disagree that everything said here is 100% speculation. This game was developed for years very much in the open. I've seen the devcasts during early access. I've read the discussions about mechanics that happened on bug reports and elsewhere in these forums, with developers participating. Lastly, I have about 30 years of professional experience doing software development, including some years in the games industry, to help interpret what I read and saw.

So, no, I don't have the design document ready to show you, or the sim's source code with comments. But I'm not pulling stuff out of thin air, and there are people here who have spent far more time considering these issues than I have, and they're not Klei employees, either.

 

[NeoDeusMachina]

3 hours ago, pnambic said:

Firstly, thanks for making me realize that I'm both too old for this crap, and obviously not competent enough to get my point across.

However. I respectfully disagree that everything said here is 100% speculation. This game was developed for years very much in the open. I've seen the devcasts during early access. I've read the discussions about mechanics that happened on bug reports and elsewhere in these forums, with developers participating. Lastly, I have about 30 years of professional experience doing software development, including some years in the games industry, to help interpret what I read and saw.

So, no, I don't have the design document ready to show you, or the sim's source code with comments. But I'm not pulling stuff out of thin air, and there are people here who have spent far more time considering these issues than I have, and they're not Klei employees, either.

 

You are most welcome! I'll try to be more direct than my previous post and hopefully make my point more clear: I mean this respectfully - you cannot post your resume and list of titles on a video game forum and expect to get any kind of recognition as you would in your professional or personal life. Your word is worth as much as the next 12 years old kid who played the game for 2h.

I believe you have all the qualifications you said you have, but my opinion on this really doesn't matter. I also agree with a lot of the stuff you said previously - I just didn't comment on it as it wasn't the point I was trying to make. Anyone here can claim to be whatever they like and no one could prove or disprove it. It just means nothing. In the same way, you can't engage your profesionnal responsibility and be accountable for what you say and do.

In other words, it's pointless to try and get the points you were trying to make to others who wouldn't listen, at least not to the extent you did. So, why waste your time? If you have the resume and titles you said, what does it matter that you convince some random stranger that you are correct? My call for "agree to disagree and move on" is just that. Saves us all the pain to read a pointless argument that Klei has read countless times before and can decide if/when to address it, saves you the pain to not get your point across (not for a lack of trying, a lot). Win win, no?

[pnambic]

20 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

In other words, it's pointless to try and get the points you were trying to make to others who wouldn't listen, at least not to the extent you did. So, why waste your time? If you have the resume and titles you said, what does it matter that you convince some random stranger that you are correct? My call for "agree to disagree and move on" is just that. Saves us all the pain to read a pointless argument that Klei has read countless times before and can decide if/when to address it, saves you the pain to not get your point across (not for a lack of trying, a lot). Win win, no?

Let me be crystal-clear on a few points, and then hopefully lay this to rest:

1. I do (and did) appreciate being told to shut up when I'm making a fool of myself. I do not appreciate being told to shut up because someone is tired of reading what I or others write. You are free to not read it; I wouldn't force you to even if I magically could. Similarly, how I spend my time is none of your concern. The core of the discussion in this thread has to do with people trying to control other people's behaviour in the context of a game, when that behaviour doesn't need to affect them.
2. I will not "agree to disagree" on matters of facts and/or logic in public. That stance is not grounded in facts or logic, it's just a personal value, so I'll gladly agree to disagree with you - in advance - on whether it's a good stance.
3. I think that divulging parts of my background in response to Henlikuoth above was a mistake; that's a good part of the "making a fool out of myself" thing. It was not an attempt to pull rank in the context of the general discussion, though, that's always pointless.
4. I see the things I mentioned in my initial reply to you as relevant to explain why it is reasonable to claim to know things about the design of this game without working at Klei, even though it's hard to acquire that knowledge now for someone who wasn't playing the game 6-7 years ago. Basically the answer to your question, "Or am I missing something?"

[NeoDeusMachina]

15 minutes ago, pnambic said:

Let me be crystal-clear on a few points, and then hopefully lay this to rest:

1. I do (and did) appreciate being told to shut up when I'm making a fool of myself. I do not appreciate being told to shut up because someone is tired of reading what I or others write. You are free to not read it; I wouldn't force you to even if I magically could. Similarly, how I spend my time is none of your concern. The core of the discussion in this thread has to do with people trying to control other people's behaviour in the context of a game, when that behaviour doesn't need to affect them.
2. I will not "agree to disagree" on matters of facts and/or logic in public. That stance is not grounded in facts or logic, it's just a personal value, so I'll gladly agree to disagree with you - in advance - on whether it's a good stance.
3. I think that divulging parts of my background in response to Henlikuoth above was a mistake; that's a good part of the "making a fool out of myself" thing. It was not an attempt to pull rank in the context of the general discussion, though, that's always pointless.
4. I see the things I mentioned in my initial reply to you as relevant to explain why it is reasonable to claim to know things about the design of this game without working at Klei, even though it's hard to acquire that knowledge now for someone who wasn't playing the game 6-7 years ago. Basically the answer to your question, "Or am I missing something?"

All fair points. I would never ask anyone to stop talking, I was mostly suggesting it might be worth considering moving on, which is what I will do now

[Prince Mandor]

On 5/29/2024 at 10:29 AM, GluttonyMain said:

In that thread we were talking abotu escher waterfalls (check the quoted message).

Yes, escher waterfall mechanic is falling droplets of liquid from edge. Liquid falling from edge don't exist in any tile. Try to understand, this is basic game mechanic of falling liquids. Liquids falling from edge is not a bug

[GluttonyMain]

10 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Yes, escher waterfall mechanic is falling droplets of liquid from edge. Liquid falling from edge don't exist in any tile. Try to understand, this is basic game mechanic of falling liquids. Liquids falling from edge is not a bug

In the case of escher waterfalls case the gas should swap with the liquid nearby (not use dropples).

[Prince Mandor]

4 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

In the case of escher waterfalls case the gas should swap with the liquid nearby (not use dropples).

Why it must swap with liquid which is not moving anywhere? Liquid don't move to a top gas cell, it just drops excess of liquid (excess determined by liquid viscosity) down over edge. Liquid stay where it was, only excess drops. Gas don't move liquids sideways, this is rule of this game. Gas can move only gas, liquid can move liquid and gas, and solid move everything. Liquid don't move here, just drop excess down. Imagine it happens in more relaxed conditions, why liquid near the edge must disappears if it just falls excesses down?

So far this is good and predictable behavior. Liquid wave come to an edge and falls mostly, leaving some small amount at top. Not a bug

[GluttonyMain]

12 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

Why it must swap with liquid which is not moving anywhere? Liquid don't move to a top gas cell, it just drops excess of liquid (excess determined by liquid viscosity) down over edge. Liquid stay where it was, only excess drops. Gas don't move liquids sideways, this is rule of this game. Gas can move only gas, liquid can move liquid and gas, and solid move everything. Liquid don't move here, just drop excess down. Imagine it happens in more relaxed conditions, why liquid near the edge must disappears if it just falls excesses down?

So far this is good and predictable behavior. Liquid wave come to an edge and falls mostly, leaving some small amount at top. Not a bug

Why? Because it would be more intuitive if the liquid didnt just suddenly shoot up even against the gravity. And current behaviour is not good, because it can lead to unintuitive flows of liquid. The bug is the liquid moving from low pressure to high pressure.

[Prince Mandor]

4 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

Why? Because it would be more intuitive if the liquid didnt just suddenly shoot up even against the gravity. And current behaviour is not good, because it can lead to unintuitive flows of liquid. The bug is the liquid moving from low pressure to high pressure.

Again, there are no bug. Excesses of liquid falls over edge in gas. It don't occupy new tile, don't make anything. just moves down falling from edge. It form a pool below in normal circumstances. So, no; falling of extra liquid is not a bug by any means.

And in this game "gravity" is again strange concept. 1 gram of CO2 will go down below tons of oxygen. This defies gravity as we know it in our world, because 1 gram is heavier than ton. Only "molar mass" important in ingame physics and state of material (liquid falls in gas, solid falls in gas and liquid)

[blakemw]

18 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Only "molar mass" important in ingame physics and state of material (liquid falls in gas, solid falls in gas and liquid)

Ah yes "molar mass", as the game annoyingly uses atomic mass for pure elements, even though describing them in the molecular form such as describing Oxygen as "O₂".

It bothers me more than it should that oxygen rises above steam.