Pressure can compress and liquefy

[Genry]

The screenshots show a gas compressor and a liquid compressor.
Since we were talking about additions, I decided to propose an idea.
1) It is necessary to rewrite the code for the behavior of the liquid, since at over pressure, the weight of water, unlike gas, begins to move from cell to cell. It is necessary that the weight be evenly distributed.
2) Now, depending on the temperature and, to a greater extent, pressure, liquids under over pressure harden into a solid state - this is a sub state - this is a semi-liquid, semi-solid state - you cannot interact with it (dig). This solid cell is for moving to another cell behaves like a liquid, but cannot be used like water.
As soon as water has passed into a substate, it breaks the endless compressors.
The gas also hardens. (It goes from a gas immediately to a solid state, that is, there is no transition to a liquid)
The influence of temperature may be excessive, but the pressure should work.
These abuses in the screenshots infuriate me.

 

I came up with an idea on how to improve it.
The subcell is now a special state of matter.
Such cells secrete excess substances into free space. If the secreted substance also has over pressure, then it turns into a solid subcell.
Substance from solid subcells can pass into each other as a gas or liquid does.

 

[pnambic]

4 hours ago, Genry said:

These abuses in the screenshots infuriate me.

Don't build them, then. Problem solved.

 

How does your proposal make the game more fun for everyone?

[GluttonyMain]

I actually think additional mechanics around pressure could be very fun.

[pnambic]

13 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

I actually think additional mechanics around pressure could be very fun.

Oh, definitely. All OP's suggestion does, though, is to try and "fix" infinite storage somehow. Note that the resulting tiles are not actually usable to do anything with. It's a complicated change to take away an existing option, not add new ones.

[GluttonyMain]

I dont think you can say that, players are very crafty i think they might find an ingenious use for it. I think this suggestion is still wroth trying. But I would certainly prefer a better mehcanic for pressure, one that actually lets you for example liquify gas with pressure instead of temperature (and actually be able to use the resulting liquid)

[Gurgel]

On 5/19/2024 at 6:53 PM, pnambic said:

 It's a complicated change to take away an existing option, not add new ones.

We have seen this happen timen and again: Somebody cannot deal with the way Oni works and then makes claims that people get "seduced by the exploits", the sky is falling and obviously anybody using these "exploits" is surely going to hell as they do not match what the creator intended. Hence urgent changes are needed to put the Universe back into alignment and make sure everybody stays virtuous.

Obviously, this crap is nothing but mindless virtue-signalling. These people always try to take the fun out of things. My recommendation is to ignore them. Oni has infinite storage. Deal with it or play something else. 

Also: 

 

 

 

[Genry]

If a game has a mechanic that devalues other mechanics, then this is poor game design.
In this case, endless storage devalues the tanks and removes from the player part of the gameplay associated with solving the problem of storing liquids or gases.
And yes, people who write about ignoring such mechanics, in their subjective assessment, have not thought about this topic.

12 minutes ago, Genry said:

If a game has a mechanic that devalues other mechanics, then this is poor game design.
In this case, endless storage devalues the tanks and removes from the player part of the gameplay associated with solving the problem of storing liquids or gases.
And yes, people who write about ignoring such mechanics, in their subjective assessment, have not thought about this topic.

A game is a set of rules for the player, from which he receives pleasure. An exploit is a violation of the rules of the game’s program logic (I hope I expressed myself correctly). In essence, this is a technical misunderstanding or defect. Any self-respecting game should not have any exploit mechanics. All such mechanics should being treated.
You cannot attribute exploits to gameplay rules for the player and say that they can be ignored.

 

I have proposed a simple and effective solution to this problem. This solution should not have any accompanying exploit mechanics.
Everything is simple here - gases and liquids have a critical weight on the cell, and as soon as it is reached, the cell turns into a sub + original substance (gas or liquid).
This subcell cannot be dug, and this cell cannot absorb additional mass. Although this cell is solid, when exchanged with other cells, it behaves like the original substance before entering the substate. This means that it releases excess weight into adjacent cells as normal matter.
This will block the drainage of water or gas, breaking endless storage tanks.

[pnambic]

31 minutes ago, Genry said:

A game is a set of rules for the player, from which he receives pleasure. An exploit is a violation of the rules of the game’s program logic (I hope I expressed myself correctly). In essence, this is a technical misunderstanding or defect. Any self-respecting game should not have any exploit mechanics. All such mechanics should being treated.
You cannot attribute exploits to gameplay rules for the player and say that they can be ignored.

The rules that enable infinite storage and other things you potentially see as exploits are the fundamental rules of the game's simulation layer. They have been around for over six years. The playerbase is not ignoring the rules, they are following the rules of the game.

That you failed to understand this because you expect ONI to be something it is not is excusable; ONI is unlike many other games it superficially resembles. Your arrogance however is not. Take a moment to learn what you're talking about before you embarass yourself any further.

[Genry]

1 hour ago, pnambic said:

The rules that enable infinite storage and other things you potentially see as exploits are the fundamental rules of the game's simulation layer. They have been around for over six years. The playerbase is not ignoring the rules, they are following the rules of the game.

That you failed to understand this because you expect ONI to be something it is not is excusable; ONI is unlike many other games it superficially resembles. Your arrogance however is not. Take a moment to learn what you're talking about before you embarass yourself any further.

Well, of course, I don’t understand anything, I think you would also say the same thing about rad bolts directed at each other, giving more radiation than it was initially. However, the klei cured this exploit.

[pnambic]

2 minutes ago, Genry said:

Well, of course, I don’t understand anything, I think you would also say the same thing about rad bolts directed at each other, giving more radiation than it was initially. However, the klei cured this exploit.

See, and other things you see as exploits haven't been "cured" in forever. There are reasons behind this, which you don't understand, or you wouldn't be reviving this age-old discussion.

[GluttonyMain]

I dont see why you have to be so hostile. Just because he disagrees with you doesnt mean he doesnt understand anything. Your arrogance is not helpful.

 

I think its an alright suggestion, I would prefer even better overhaul of pressure in oni, but his suggestion is not bad.

[pnambic]

50 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

I dont see why you have to be so hostile. Just because he disagrees with you doesnt mean he doesnt understand anything. Your arrogance is not helpful.

 

I think its an alright suggestion, I would prefer even better overhaul of pressure in oni, but his suggestion is not bad.

I recommend reading the links provided further up by Gurgel. OP had ample opportunity to explain the merits of the suggestion, in case I missed them. OPs actual aim, as stated, however, is to control the way others play, in a non-competitive single-player game. This comes up every two months or so here, and it always either stems from not realizing how this game's physics work and how they fit into the overall gameplay, or some sort of misguided saviour attitude.

I'll gladly listen to your explanation of the merits of the idea. But look closely at what OP proposes: "as soon as water has passed into a substate, it breaks the endless compressors". Same for gas. That's all the idea does. An entire new state of matter to prevent infinite storage.

Why? "These abuses in the screenshots infuriate me." - That is arrogance.

Why are they abuses? "endless storage devalues the tanks and removes from the player part of the gameplay associated with solving the problem of storing liquids or gases". - That is ignorance.

 

[Henlikuoth]

5 hours ago, Genry said:

If a game has a mechanic that devalues other mechanics, then this is poor game design.
In this case, endless storage devalues the tanks and removes from the player part of the gameplay associated with solving the problem of storing liquids or gases.

Many people, including me, have this impression of those game mechanics. However, I do not see any point in arguing about this in these forums. It seems pointless. Certain people seem to have created a wall of resistance against any critical comment regarding said mechanics, effectively suffocating any further (healthy) discussion, stifling arguments that have been made, and somehow implying that there are "no arguments" (even when they were already mentioned). 

You find people arguing against those mechanics on YouTube, Reddit, and Steam. The common reply here seems to be that it is a "fundamental layer" of the game and, thus, cannot be changed (allegedly). 

Well, Klei mentioned plans for system changes in the future. Let's see what they have in mind. Maybe they will tackle this age-old issue also. We shall see. 

5 hours ago, Genry said:

Any self-respecting game should not have any exploit mechanics.

I also feel that way, but there are different attitudes toward that. Some people don't even have this impression and divert it to the phrase, "It is just a single-player game, and everyone can play how he/she pleases." Well, even single-player games should follow certain regulations and design choices. 

Also, I don't buy the claim that it "cannot be changed." Klei already ended the Pacu and Radbolt abuse (yes, I call it an abuse). Good! 

But I won't go again into this pointless discussion. Let's see what system changes Klei has planned for the future. 

[pnambic]

10 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

Also, I don't buy the claim that it "cannot be changed." Klei already ended the Pacu and Radbolt abuse (yes, I call it an abuse). Good!

You'll probably be surprised to learn that I completely agree with the Radbolt Regen fix (the Pacu thing is a balance change to me; nothing to do with the fundamental rules you don't believe exist). I also agreed with the patch to drip cooling, and I hope for a patch to fix liquid duplication (both the controlled version, and the accidental one from high liquid pressures). Because those are bugs - they don't make sense given the basic rules of ONI physics,

The usual suspects (liquid locks, infinite storage, bead pumps, escher waterfalls, door compressors/crushers) are different. They are emergent properties of those basic rules, and changing those rules would break other things. I challenged you a while back to come up with a proposal that would work. Haven't heard anything so far. If you thought about it a bit more, maybe even did some experiments, you'd find out that there are real interdependencies and trade-offs to consider. It's not a conspiracy to subjugate the righteous, you are actually objectively wrong about this.

[GluttonyMain]

11 hours ago, pnambic said:

I recommend reading the links provided further up by Gurgel. OP had ample opportunity to explain the merits of the suggestion, in case I missed them. OPs actual aim, as stated, however, is to control the way others play, in a non-competitive single-player game. This comes up every two months or so here, and it always either stems from not realizing how this game's physics work and how they fit into the overall gameplay, or some sort of misguided saviour attitude.

I'll gladly listen to your explanation of the merits of the idea. But look closely at what OP proposes: "as soon as water has passed into a substate, it breaks the endless compressors". Same for gas. That's all the idea does. An entire new state of matter to prevent infinite storage.

Why? "These abuses in the screenshots infuriate me." - That is arrogance.

Why are they abuses? "endless storage devalues the tanks and removes from the player part of the gameplay associated with solving the problem of storing liquids or gases". - That is ignorance.

 

Wanting a game to handle pressure better doesnt need some higher purpose, just the fact that it woudl behave a little more like nomral person would expect is already worth it. The current behaviour is unintuitive. But If you must have more concrete example, i have onseveral occasions created accidental infinite pressure when tamign water geysers, and the pressure build up has ruined by build. That is a bug. I didn’t do anyhting to break the walls, the game bugged out and destroyed my walls. I dont like that. I want that fixed. Its perfectly valid to want a bug to be fixed.

 

Nowadays I knwo to leave 2 tile gaps everywhere to avoid this nonsense, but I see no reason why I should need to do that, btu more importantly I dont see why new players should get screwed by this extremely unintuitive behaviour. Makign 1 tile gap should not be a reason for your build to break. Thats a bug.

[pnambic]

2 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Wanting a game to handle pressure better doesnt need some higher purpose, just the fact that it woudl behave a little more like nomral person would expect is already worth it. The current behaviour is unintuitive. But If you must have more concrete example, i have onseveral occasions created accidental infinite pressure when tamign water geysers, and the pressure build up has ruined by build. That is a bug. I didn’t do anyhting to break the walls, the game bugged out and destroyed my walls. I dont like that. I want that fixed. Its perfectly valid to want a bug to be fixed.

 

Nowadays I knwo to leave 2 tile gaps everywhere to avoid this nonsense, but I see no reason why I should need to do that, btu more importantly I dont see why new players should get screwed by this extremely unintuitive behaviour. Makign 1 tile gap should not be a reason for your build to break. Thats a bug.

You know wrongly. If you're worried about liquid pressure, make your walls three tiles wide, and they won't break. If you want to avoid accidental escher waterfalls, vacuum out compartments with water sources, and be careful around dripping mixed liquids, particularly in mixed gases. Escher waterfalls also form in the wild without player interaction, by the way. The environment is hazardous. It's a survival sim after all. In the real world, people sadly regularly suffocate by climbing down into enclosed spaces, not realizing that they might be depriving themselves of oxygen. That is tragic, but it's not a bug in reality, it's lack of knowledge of the workings of the world.

Doing a proper pressure simulation might be a lot of fun; I'm not sure if it's computationally feasible, but I wouldn't complain. As it is, ONI has a different conception of pressure (and pretty much everything else) than the real world, and doing science to find out how it works (again, see the "The Natural Philosophy of ONI" post linked above) is one of the most unique and (to me, satisfying) aspects of this game.

[GluttonyMain]

26 minutes ago, pnambic said:

You know wrongly. If you're worried about liquid pressure, make your walls three tiles wide, and they won't break. If you want to avoid accidental escher waterfalls, vacuum out compartments with water sources, and be careful around dripping mixed liquids, particularly in mixed gases.

I didnt say its impossible to work around, I just dont think we should need to. It woudl be a better game if I didnt have to worry about that.

Quote

In the real world, people sadly regularly suffocate by climbing down into enclosed spaces, not realizing that they might be depriving themselves of oxygen. That is tragic, but it's not a bug in reality, it's lack of knowledge of the workings of the world.

Carbon dioxide flowing down is significnatly different than havign your walls break because water decides pressurize because the area wasnt a perfect vacuum. One is easily intuitive, while the other is a convuluted mess. You might like it, and fine enough, but its not "ignorant" to want the game to behave more predictably and intuitively. Yes I can build 3 tiles wide walls, but i would prefer not to have to do that, because it shouldn’t be neccesary. Yes I can vacuum it, but that doesnt work on polluted water, casue that produces more gas. Yes I can leave 2 tile spaces, but I would prefer not having to do that just to avoid a bug.

[pnambic]

7 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Carbon dioxide flowing down is significnatly different than havign your walls break because water decides pressurize because the area wasnt a perfect vacuum. One is easily intuitive, while the other is a convuluted mess.

No, the difference is, one thing you knew already, one thing you would've needed to learn. Those people suffocating in the real world, did they have wrong intuitions, or did they die to lack of knowledge?

The "bug" that causes Escher waterfalls also causes gas to move out of the way of closing mechanized airlocks, it enables the gas sorting in rodriguez- and hydra-style electrolyzer setups, it prevents liquid and gas vents deleting gases when they output something in a mixed-gas environment, and makes sure that dripping lqiuids don't delete the gas in their path (and/or themselves). You can ignore all that and believe that ONI is a real-wold simulation. That's frustrating, though.

[Charletrom]

Klei should do what they want, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a good use of resources to “fix” a “bug” that many players rely on. Those that don’t like it have a very easy workaround: don’t use it.

 

Based on how liquid works in the real world, infinite liquid storage doesn’t make sense to my brain, so I don’t use it. I do however use infinite gas storage via door pumps. I like that I have that choice.

[Henlikuoth]

3 hours ago, pnambic said:

the Pacu thing is a balance change to me

Limiting infinite storages, thus making them finite, is also a reasonable balance change to me. 

3 hours ago, pnambic said:

fundamental rules you don't believe exist

I never said they don't exist in the current version of the game. I always said that Klei could change specific mechanics/rules of the game, and indeed, they could. We might see changes in the future regarding this. As I said, Klei mentioned "system changes."

3 hours ago, pnambic said:

patch to fix liquid duplication

No problem with me. I want it also. 

3 hours ago, pnambic said:

proposal that would work

I don't have access to the game's codes, but many people have already mentioned various options. Even simple things like limiting the gas or liquid amount per tile could cause the game to delete everything beyond a specific amount determined by Klei. After that, the pipes could just be blocked. Also, Klei could make (gas) pipes be blocked if fluids are in front of the vents. 

There could even be a maximum total per resource per game, like 10,000 tons of something. First, 10,000 tons is already absurdly high, and second, if people reached those amounts, they would already have succeeded in establishing endlessly renewable resources anyway. Any amount that goes beyond that limit could just be deleted by the game. 

Many proposals have been made over the years. The basic idea is that this whole infinite storage issue has been causing tensions and a split in the ONI community for a long time. I observed that. For the sake of peace and good game regulations, Klei should think about this and come up with a healthy solution.

Off-topic: I would like to see an overall adjustment to the numbers/values in the game. They should be somewhat relatable to real life. For example, a 100 kg door is unrealistic, and 25 kg for one meter of cable is also unrealistic. Also, every time I see a critter pooping around 70 kg of something, I feel strange  70 kg is the weight of an average woman. My point is that the numbers are partly over the roof, which can be a bit misleading compared to real life. And it is somewhat immersion-breaking. 

[GluttonyMain]

4 hours ago, Charletrom said:

Klei should do what they want, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a good use of resources to “fix” a “bug” that many players rely on. Those that don’t like it have a very easy workaround: don’t use it.

Thast a lie. It can **** your build even if you dont intentioanlyl use it. Its not hard to encounter the bug. Source: me.

[Primalflower]

infinite storage exploits are never necessary or even really uniquely "useful" in a way that cannot be achieved in another way, beyond simplification for a player. All of my games as of late I have gone without them and this is far before gas storage reservoirs were buffed to be made even easier to work with. By all means, the game would not change if this exploit were to be patched for me. Still, I find it off-color and perhaps even missing the point a little for topics like this to be brought up in the way they are. I agree with pnambic in that it feels like policing strategies the way one would in a competitive environment, in a singleplayer game.

If you want a pressure overhaul entirely, then I would rather you suggest it on those merits alone, rather than to take something away from players that are clearly having fun, because the mere sight of such is upsetting you.

[Charletrom]

28 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Thast a lie. It can **** your build even if you dont intentioanlyl use it. Its not hard to encounter the bug. Source: me.

First of all, that’s not what “lie” means, and if you’re encountering the “bug” in your builds that’s a solvable issue. If you post a screenshot of your build I guarantee we can troubleshoot. Mixed gasses that could be the issue.

[Primalflower]

It is worth mentioning that hyper-compressed gases and liquids exist ingame as natural features in things such as geodes & crude oil in oil biomes

[pnambic]

6 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

The basic idea is that this whole infinite storage issue has been causing tensions and a split in the ONI community for a long time. I observed that. For the sake of peace and good game regulations, Klei should think about this and come up with a healthy solution.

I'll get back to the other points in a separate post once I'm caught up on the rest of the thread, but this statement stood out to me. Let me explain this as politely as possible. This is not Klei's problem to fix. This problem is you, and others like you. Nobody gives a damn about how other people play, except for this small group who cannot seem to wrap their head around the fact that, just because something can be done in a game they play, they are not forced to do the thing if it breaks their immersion or otherwise is detrimental to their enjoyment.

ONI is perfectly playable without infinite storage or other applications of the physics. You can even install mods to avoid rodriguez-style electrolyzers ("Piped Everything"), if you're actually unhappy about the "one element per tile"-mechanic and its implications. There are airlock doors, deep freezers, and storages of configurable size. None of this even disables achievements. You can play the game you want to play, and nobody will complain.

The discussions start once this nonsense gets out of your head. Keep it there. Watch the tensions disappear. The only reason I even engage with this topic is to prevent the spread of this disabling mental condition.