Pressure can compress and liquefy

[pnambic]

51 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

14 hours ago, pnambic said:

We might need a few more of these, like for uncovering hot abyssalite in oil, and intruding shove voles, and pips getting their paws on sporechid seeds, and digging out the covering tile of geysers

Thats a compeltely different thing, stop conflating intended mechanics with bugs.

But uncovering hot abyssalite in oil can lead to ridiculous pressures (and flaking, the mechanism that causes that, has been called a bug thousands of times). It's surely not intuitive for new players. Is it only a bug if you ran into it? Are you the global arbiter of intuitiveness? Step back for a second and listen to yourself talk; this is getting ridiculous.

 

51 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

14 hours ago, pnambic said:

In early 2019 (probably also earlier, but the response here is the interesting part), someone reported the hydra overpressure protection as a bug, which was acknowledged, but deemed, and I quote, "due to some of the fundamental rules of the simulation and [...] unlikely to be resolved".

So you agree its a bug. Nice.

That's not what I said, and the bug report is not about Escher waterfalls. This is like talking to a spoiled child and not worth my time. I'll put you on "ignore" now, 2nd person to earn that privilege here, in almost seven years, and the first was just a day ago... Good luck in the future.

[Prince Mandor]

53 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Id rather they fix the bug.

Try to reread everything was written to you. This is not a bug. This is how ingame physics works in this flat 2-dimension world with square quanta. Don't reference some three-dimension physics of word with molecules where nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide may coexist in one cubic foot, where ton is heavier than 10 grams and pressure exists. This is not a game about physics of 3-dimension world with molecules, this is a game about square cells and physics of this cells

[GluttonyMain]

5 hours ago, pnambic said:

But uncovering hot abyssalite in oil can lead to ridiculous pressures

Not really, the resultig gasses will have no higher pressrue than the original oil, unless im missign somehting

5 hours ago, pnambic said:

(and flaking, the mechanism that causes that, has been called a bug thousands of times). It's surely not intuitive for new players.

Im not sure why flaking is a thing tbh, if abyssalite is supposed to have low therman conductivity, why does it heat up elements? It does kinda sound like bug now that I think about it. So yeah i was wrong this sounds liek a bug too, i was concetrating on the rpessrue thing and didnt think about the thermal conductivity bypass thing.

5 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Try to reread everything was written to you. This is not a bug. This is how ingame physics works in this flat 2-dimension world with square quanta. Don't reference some three-dimension physics of word with molecules where nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide may coexist in one cubic foot, where ton is heavier than 10 grams and pressure exists. This is not a game about physics of 3-dimension world with molecules, this is a game about square cells and physics of this cells

I have not mentioned molecules even once, but nice strawman. And it is a bug. Just because it happens in the game engine doesnt mean its intended feature. You could also say that Slicksters being able to pass diagonally through tiles is how the pathing works in ONI. And yet they fixed it. You can excuse every bug this way, but it doesnt really change the fact that it is a bug.

[Gurgel]

6 hours ago, pnambic said:

But uncovering hot abyssalite in oil can lead to ridiculous pressures (and flaking, the mechanism that causes that, has been called a bug thousands of times). It's surely not intuitive for new players. Is it only a bug if you ran into it? Are you the global arbiter of intuitiveness? Step back for a second and listen to yourself talk; this is getting ridiculous.

At this time we can reliably seay that neither flaking, nor compressibility of liquids are bugs. These have been in the game far too long and there were far too many opportunities to "fix" them. Klei decided not to. My take is that "fixing" them causes serious problems. It is also quite possible that Klei wants them in there as advanced mechanisms to be discovered by advanced players. Advanced mechanisms are not supposed to be readily intuitive. 

[pnambic]

19 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

At this time we can reliably seay that neither flaking, nor compressibility of liquids are bugs. These have been in the game far too long and there were far too many opportunities to "fix" them. Klei decided not to. My take is that "fixing" them causes serious problems. It is also quite possible that Klei wants them in there as advanced mechanisms to be discovered by advanced players. Advanced mechanisms are not supposed to be readily intuitive. 

I completely agree that flaking is not a bug, but every time someone new happens upon it, they tend to call it that (because, you know, Abyssalite has 0 TC in the UI, even it it's not 0 in ONI reality, and people don't know about flaking). I was using that as an example to point out the inconsistency of the argument of the person I was replying to.

(I'm also 100% sure that compressibility of liquids is not a bug, because without it, there wouldn't be a way to trigger the pressure damage mechanic.)

[Henlikuoth]

1 hour ago, GluttonyMain said:

You can excuse every bug this way, but it doesnt really change the fact that it is a bug.

Yeah, I also noticed that some people always say that something is a "feature," "game mechanic," or "system regulation" rather than a bug.

If you argue like that, you could theoretically excuse every absurdity.

Klei also fixed the mass Pacu ranching, which was great. I liked the change. Many builds relied on only that exploit. Yes, I call it an exploit because it created oddly high amounts of fish and could, thus, feed way too many dupes for relatively little effort (once you knew how to do that ranch). It was nonsensical and clearly not intended. At that time, some people also tried to argue in the same way: They tried to say that mass Pacu ranching is "just" the consequence of certain game mechanics. From that, they deduced that using it was okay and legitimate. Of course, this is nonsensical. Some people do not seem to have a sense for or sensitive awareness of immersion- and sometimes even game-breaking aspects. 

Similarly, Klei finished off the mass Radbold generation exploit (yes, that was also an exploit). Well done! Producing Radbolts like that in such insane amounts was obviously never Klei's intention. The player is supposed to use other, more balanced ways and approaches, which include other challenges that are (an intended) part of the game. 

Also, another "argument" often encountered here is that anyone should not "force" someone else to play in a certain way. This "argument" also fails because it is not about forcing anyone but about intended game designs that should be used creatively but reasonably. Klei finished off the mass Pacu ranching. So, does that mean that Klei is evil now and forcing people to stop using the ranch? Of course not. It was a decision to prevent exploitative measures that would undermine other aspects of the game, like creating more food types instead of focusing on mass Pacus only, among other things. 

Sadly, certain people here are very active, which gives the impression that they are "right" and represent the majority. No way. I observed something else. Many people notice various issues, which you can see in the Steam forums, Reddit, and YouTube, to mention a few. 

[Charletrom]

2 hours ago, Henlikuoth said:

Yeah, I also noticed that some people always say that something is a "feature," "game mechanic," or "system regulation" rather than a bug.

If you argue like that, you could theoretically excuse every absurdity.

Klei also fixed the mass Pacu ranching, which was great. I liked the change. Many builds relied on only that exploit. Yes, I call it an exploit because it created oddly high amounts of fish and could, thus, feed way too many dupes for relatively little effort (once you knew how to do that ranch). It was nonsensical and clearly not intended. At that time, some people also tried to argue in the same way: They tried to say that mass Pacu ranching is "just" the consequence of certain game mechanics. From that, they deduced that using it was okay and legitimate. Of course, this is nonsensical. Some people do not seem to have a sense for or sensitive awareness of immersion- and sometimes even game-breaking aspects. 

Similarly, Klei finished off the mass Radbold generation exploit (yes, that was also an exploit). Well done! Producing Radbolts like that in such insane amounts was obviously never Klei's intention. The player is supposed to use other, more balanced ways and approaches, which include other challenges that are (an intended) part of the game. 

Also, another "argument" often encountered here is that anyone should not "force" someone else to play in a certain way. This "argument" also fails because it is not about forcing anyone but about intended game designs that should be used creatively but reasonably. Klei finished off the mass Pacu ranching. So, does that mean that Klei is evil now and forcing people to stop using the ranch? Of course not. It was a decision to prevent exploitative measures that would undermine other aspects of the game, like creating more food types instead of focusing on mass Pacus only, among other things. 

Sadly, certain people here are very active, which gives the impression that they are "right" and represent the majority. No way. I observed something else. Many people notice various issues, which you can see in the Steam forums, Reddit, and YouTube, to mention a few. 

It’s a fair point I suppose but cuts both ways… you deciding that it is a bug is just as arbitrary. Importantly though you are have to consider the likelihood of cascading negative consequences of changing a fundamental aspect of the sim that would be much harder for the player to mitigate. Gas deletion for example.

 

The pacu change is more in line with the philosophy of critter ranching and other previous changes. I’ve heard that we used to be able to create pits of misery where you could harvest dupe tears and vomit. In general Klei doesn’t like to incentivize mass cruelty if it can be helped.

[pnambic]

41 minutes ago, Charletrom said:

cascading negative consequences of changing a fundamental aspect of the sim

That's not even the salient point. It's easier to see if you look at the Radbolt Rain. That was an integer underflow; a corner case not handled correctly in the code, creating 2,147,000,000 and then some radioactive contaminants (signed 32-bit integer max value). That's a bug. That code was supposed to do something, and it did something else.

The code handling "one element per tile" conflict resolution and element displacement for conservation of mass works correctly. It just has implications that some people don't like, but that doesn't make it a bug. There's no mistake to fix, only trade-offs to consider (and that is where your point comes in).

[GluttonyMain]

5 hours ago, pnambic said:

(I'm also 100% sure that compressibility of liquids is not a bug, because without it, there wouldn't be a way to trigger the pressure damage mechanic.)

Yes there is, by storing too much liquid in your open reservoir.

[pnambic]

48 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Yes there is, by storing too much liquid in your open reservoir.

Riddle me this, what does it mean to say that something is "compressed"? I would think it means "there is more mass of something in a given volume of space than under regular, non-compressed circumstances".

That is also the thing that triggers pressure damage in ONI - being adjacent to a tile of liquid that weighs a certain amount more (depending on the wall material and type) than its regular max tile mass. The liquid at the bottom of tall open tanks is compressed; that's why it breaks tiles. You can verify that in-game by checking the mass of any such liquid tile.

This is not like the real world, because ONI does not simulate the real world. In ONI, there is no air pressure acting on liquids, and liquids are compressible. If liquids were incompressible, there couldn't be more mass of them in a single tile than their max tile mass, and so no adjacent tiles would break.

Is that maybe the thing you didn't realize?

[Henlikuoth]

5 hours ago, Charletrom said:

Gas deletion for example.

I cannot see why gas deletion would lead to "cascading negative consequences." I only wanted gas deletion in one tile if the amount goes beyond a certain threshold to avoid accumulating absurd amounts of gas (or liquid) per tile. These absurdly high amounts ridicule the game experience and devalue other storage options (at least to a certain extent). Others also noticed this issue. I cannot see why determining a reasonable limit per element per tile should be an issue. 

5 hours ago, Charletrom said:

In general Klei doesn’t like to incentivize mass cruelty if it can be helped.

And I hope they don't. Cruelty shouldn't be in a game like ONI. It is not a horror, shooting, or fighting game. Also, it is a slow game, which I mean in the most positive sense. We have already more than enough fast-paced games on the market. The relaxing and peaceful slowness of ONI is most welcome. 

[GluttonyMain]

10 hours ago, pnambic said:

Riddle me this, what does it mean to say that something is "compressed"? I would think it means "there is more mass of something in a given volume of space than under regular, non-compressed circumstances".

That is also the thing that triggers pressure damage in ONI - being adjacent to a tile of liquid that weighs a certain amount more (depending on the wall material and type) than its regular max tile mass. The liquid at the bottom of tall open tanks is compressed; that's why it breaks tiles. You can verify that in-game by checking the mass of any such liquid tile.

This is not like the real world, because ONI does not simulate the real world. In ONI, there is no air pressure acting on liquids, and liquids are compressible. If liquids were incompressible, there couldn't be more mass of them in a single tile than their max tile mass, and so no adjacent tiles would break.

Is that maybe the thing you didn't realize?

No, I do realize it, but that has nothign to do with the topic at all.

EDIT: nevermind, my mistake i for some reason though this is still about compressing with escher waterfalls.

[pnambic]

Me: Liquids are compressible. Not a bug. Why? The pressure damage mechanic. Only compressed liquids break tiles.

You: Wrong. Tall stacks of liquid also break tiles.

Me: Tall stacks of liquid compress liquid. Liquids are compressible. Only compressed liquids break tiles.

You:

2 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

No, I do realize it, but that has nothign to do with the topic at all.

If you did realize it, why reply as if you didn't? What good does that do for anyone?

Also, the topic of this whole debacle of a discussion is, in a nutshell, "liquids and gases not behaving like they do in real life is infuriating (OP) and/or a bug (you)". That there is an entire mechanic that would do nothing if not for unrealistic liquid behavior looks on topic to me.

[Prince Mandor]

18 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

I have not mentioned molecules even once, but nice strawman. And it is a bug. Just because it happens in the game engine doesnt mean its intended feature. You could also say that Slicksters being able to pass diagonally through tiles is how the pathing works in ONI. And yet they fixed it. You can excuse every bug this way, but it doesnt really change the fact that it is a bug.

I am not saying what you mentioned molecules. Don't put words in my mouth (or on my keyboard). You just want it to behave like it is not a matrix of square cells interacting by set of rules.

It is not "intended" or "not intended", it is rules of this game: cell of gas behave in such way, cell of liquid behave in another way. Together they create funny effect used in many fantastic designs. Yes, some rules combination creates unexpected effect, like in real life light can pass through thick solid glass, but not through thinnest foil.

If you still consider it bag, can you explain what exactly is broken? Which step of gas-liquid interaction must be coded differently?

About slicksters, they can move in any possible way. But they moved in some pattern before update, and this pattern changed unexpectedly. This change was fixed. Not because there are some Great Book exists describing One-And-Only-Correct-Way for slickster movement. So, this is argument against you, any changes to old behavior is a bug, because there are already thousands of base created by people in a game already bought. And drastically changing rules is wrong.

[GluttonyMain]

Quote

Me: Liquids are compressible. Not a bug. Why? The pressure damage mechanic. Only compressed liquids break tiles.

You: Wrong. Tall stacks of liquid also break tiles.

Me: Tall stacks of liquid compress liquid. Liquids are compressible. Only compressed liquids break tiles.

Ok that was my mistake, I though we are still talking about escher waterfalls, my bad, I see that when you talked abotu compressibility of liquids you didnt mean through escher waterfalls but in general.

18 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

I am not saying what you mentioned molecules. Don't put words in my mouth (or on my keyboard). You just want it to behave like it is not a matrix of square cells interacting by set of rules.

Why did you say "Don't reference some three-dimension physics of word with molecules"? I wasnt referencing them.

18 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

It is not "intended" or "not intended", it is rules of this game: cell of gas behave in such way, cell of liquid behave in another way. Together they create funny effect used in many fantastic designs. Yes, some rules combination creates unexpected effect, like in real life light can pass through thick solid glass, but not through thinnest foil.

WHat? You think mehcanics cannot be "intended or not intended by devs? That amkes no sense.

Every signle bug is a consequence of how the game works. Ever single one. Unless maybe you cosmic radiation interfering with your CPU. Yes, game works accordign to its programming, not a huge relevation.

18 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

If you still consider it bag, can you explain what exactly is broken? Which step of gas-liquid interaction must be coded differently?

I have already mentioned one change I woudl like:

 

18 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

About slicksters, they can move in any possible way. But they moved in some pattern before update, and this pattern changed unexpectedly. This change was fixed. Not because there are some Great Book exists describing One-And-Only-Correct-Way for slickster movement. So, this is argument against you, any changes to old behavior is a bug, because there are already thousands of base created by people in a game already bought. And drastically changing rules is wrong.

Just because bug is in the game for a long time doesnt mean it cant be fixed. Critter farming was changed relatively recently breaking existing builds and yet the games is still living on.

[Prince Mandor]

On 5/25/2024 at 3:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

When liquid is falling, the game could check first the destination square., If the destination is full

Full? What do you mean by full? Game have mechanics to process tiles with thousands of tons. For example, two-tiles wide wall made of bunker tiles will be broken by 409 tons of molten lead squeezed into one tile. What is "full" cell in your definition?

 

On 5/25/2024 at 3:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

If vent with oxygen was submerged in a little bit of water, and all surrounding gas would already be over the pressure, the vent would simply refuse to output

So, you want to break all vent-tricking mechanics carefully introduced to game for our delight? Why? What is the purpose of game being bland? Vents was made to work while submerged. Some buildings just say they are flooded, but vents not. Think again, your want to destroy bases of thousands people just for your own pleasure. What is your problem with my bases using watered vents or tricked electrolyzers?

 

On 5/25/2024 at 3:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

the game could either not allow the water to drop

What do you mean "not allow to drop"? to levitate magically above gas, supported by several fays? this violate basic rules of this game, liquid falls through gas, gas raises through liquid.

 

On 5/25/2024 at 3:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

swap the tiles of elements

It is already, bead pumps utilize this mechanics. But here we have no cell of liquid. In this game liquid exists in two states -- droplets and beads. And droplets don't exist in a cell matrix, they just teleports down. They cannot "swap" with anything, there are no cell to swap with. If liquid exists as cell of liquid (called "beads" by community) it exchange place with gas under it. Lot of interesting designs based on this rule allowing to pump gases without spending energy and compressing gases infinitely. We like it, we use it.

 

Well, i read message you pointed at, but it doesn't say what is wrong, only your dreams about some other game with other rules. So, I repeat my question: can you explain what exactly is broken?

[pnambic]

1 hour ago, GluttonyMain said:

Ok that was my mistake, I though we are still talking about escher waterfalls, my bad, I see that when you talked abotu compressibility of liquids you didnt mean through escher waterfalls but in general.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. With that out of the way, let me explain to you again why Escher waterfalls are a consequence of explicitly coded game mechanics and not some standalone bug.

Except I'm not going to explain it, I'll show you a minimal Escher waterfall, and how it relates to liquid dripping from a vent, and then let a Klei dev explain the mechanics.

Watch this 45 second video. It shows two tiles of water being compressed. One by a "classic" Escher waterfall, and another one by liquid dripping from a vent. (I threw in a demonstration of pressure damage countering as well).

Once you have watched it, read this comment on a bug report about mass getting deleted when it shouldn't be.

 

[GluttonyMain]

31 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

On 5/25/2024 at 2:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

When liquid is falling, the game could check first the destination square., If the destination is full

Full? What do you mean by full? Game have mechanics to process tiles with thousands of tons. For example, two-tiles wide wall made of bunker tiles will be broken by 409 tons of molten lead squeezed into one tile. What is "full" cell in your definition?

Same thing when water is freeflowing with no escher shenanigans. For Water that would be 1000kg i believe.

31 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

On 5/25/2024 at 2:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

If vent with oxygen was submerged in a little bit of water, and all surrounding gas would already be over the pressure, the vent would simply refuse to output

So, you want to break all vent-tricking mechanics carefully introduced to game for our delight? Why? What is the purpose of game being bland? Vents was made to work while submerged. Some buildings just say they are flooded, but vents not. Think again, your want to destroy bases of thousands people just for your own pleasure. What is your problem with my bases using watered vents or tricked electrolyzers?

I want that bug fixed, yes. Vents overpressure in gas therefore its only logical that they are not supposed to create pressures above certain treshold. Alternatively I woudl also be fine with devs just removign the limit from the vent if they INTEND the vent to be able to overpressure rooms.I think its the worse option than fixing it, but at least it would make it consistent and intuitive.
Devs could potentially make a flag that would not break existign saves but would fix it in new games only.

31 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

On 5/25/2024 at 2:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

the game could either not allow the water to drop

What do you mean "not allow to drop"? to levitate magically above gas, supported by several fays? this violate basic rules of this game, liquid falls through gas, gas raises through liquid.

It was one of the options for cases where water is on the floow and the only tile opening is full of pressured gasses. Im at work so i cant boot up the game, but i was imagining this (blue thing is water, it woudl normally drip over the edge, but the pressure of the gasses would prevent it). But it was just one idea, im also finw with just swappign the tiles.

32 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

On 5/25/2024 at 2:58 PM, GluttonyMain said:

swap the tiles of elements

It is already, bead pumps utilize this mechanics. But here we have no cell of liquid. In this game liquid exists in two states -- droplets and beads. And droplets don't exist in a cell matrix, they just teleports down. They cannot "swap" with anything, there are no cell to swap with. If liquid exists as cell of liquid (called "beads" by community) it exchange place with gas under it. Lot of interesting designs based on this rule allowing to pump gases without spending energy and compressing gases infinitely. We like it, we use it.

Yes, but my point is that the dropplets woudl not drop if the destination woudl not have space for it, so it would not be allowed to overpressure the destination.

34 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

Well, i read message you pointed at, but it doesn't say what is wrong, only your dreams about some other game with other rules. So, I repeat my question: can you explain what exactly is broken?

Liquids nonsensically and unintuitively being forced into a room already at full pressure just because there are 2 gasses on top of each other.

[Prince Mandor]

6 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Same thing when water is freeflowing with no escher shenanigans. For Water that would be 1000kg i believe.

And why we can set hydrosensor to 20 tons in this case?

 

6 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

I want that bug fixed, yes.

Why after lot of people tells you differently, you still believe it is bug?

 

7 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

devs just removign the limit from the vent

Why? Again, this game have two ways to solve problem. You can use ingame building with intended result, for example oil refinery, and you can build your own boiler. And both ways is carefully designed and provided for players. Or do you think boiling oil to sour gas and cooling gas to methane and heating it back to nat.gas is also bug? There are simple solutions based on buildings (like vent stopping on 1000 kg), but full support for manually created schemes with 400+tons of liquid in a tile. This is a most interesting point of this game. Placing predefined building you can in any casual farm-game on facebook. This is not interesting and have no value for engineering thinking.

Again, think about electrolyzer. It don't work if flooded. But does it have check coded like "any liquid in my cell => flooded"? Or it allow some liquid before it became flooded? Just enough liquid to push gas away and move back after each tick? This is not a game about placing standard building. It be very boring if it was so. It is game about carefully tricking buildings to do what you want them to do. Do you remember how tricked tepidizer was fixed? Was it fixed to never became hotter than 85C? No, it was fixed to being tricked return to 124C. Just enough to have positive effect from tricking, but not making it absolute power producing device.

But you still elude my main question. If you still consider it bug, can you explain what exactly is broken?

[GluttonyMain]

15 minutes ago, pnambic said:

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. With that out of the way, let me explain to you again why Escher waterfalls are a consequence of explicitly coded game mechanics and not some standalone bug.

Except I'm not going to explain it, I'll show you a minimal Escher waterfall, and how it relates to liquid dripping from a vent, and then let a Klei dev explain the mechanics.

Watch this 45 second video. It shows two tiles of water being compressed. One by a "classic" Escher waterfall, and another one by liquid dripping from a vent. (I threw in a demonstration of pressure damage countering as well).

Once you have watched it, read this comment on a bug report about mass getting deleted when it shouldn't be.

 

Just because teh game is coded certain way doesnt mean it cannot be a bug. EVERY bug is ultimately coded into the game unless you have faulty hardware that corrupts your memory or soemthing. Im willing to bet that when dev was codign the dropplet behaviour, they didnt think "I want players to be able pump liquides very fat without using any power and even against gravity, how do I code the mechanci so this is possible". Likely they coded it in a way they though would make sense, and players then discovered a bug. I can imagine that fixing the bug might take a lot of time, and its perfectly valid to say "fixing the bug woudl take too much time we would rather concentrate on the DLC cause that fund the developement", but if its possible to fix, I would think it should be fixed.

Just now, Prince Mandor said:

22 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Same thing when water is freeflowing with no escher shenanigans. For Water that would be 1000kg i believe.

And why we can set hydrosensor to 20 tons in this case?

How is that relevant? Do you also think the game should delete anythign above 20 tons because thats as far as the hydrosensor goes?

1 minute ago, Prince Mandor said:

23 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

I want that bug fixed, yes.

Why after lot of people tells you differently, you still believe it is bug?

Because it clearly is.

2 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

Why? Again, this game have two ways to solve problem. You can use ingame building with intended result, for example oil refinery, and you can build your own boiler. And both ways is carefully designed and provided for players. Or do you think boiling oil to sour gas and cooling gas to methane and heating it back to nat.gas is also bug? There are simple solutions based on buildings (like vent stopping on 1000 kg), but full support for manually created schemes with 400+tons of liquid in a tile. This is a most interesting point of this game. Placing predefined building you can in any casual farm-game on facebook. This is not interesting and have no value for engineering thinking.

No why would I think boiling petrol is a bug. Im fine with buildings having lowered efficiency, Im not fine with building being buggy. Placing vent in liquid isnt smart, its just buggy and doesnt make sense.

[Prince Mandor]

2 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

but if its possible to fix, I would think it should be fixed

To fix it, it must be broken. Lot of people repeat to you "This is not a bug". You insist on your own understanding of "bugness", so I will ask once more. If you still consider it bug, can you explain what exactly is broken?

[GluttonyMain]

5 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

But you still elude my main question. If you still consider it bug, can you explain what exactly is broken?

If we are talkign abotu the vent in luquid specifically, the broken part is that submerged vent checks the wrong tile for pressure. Since it emits the gas not on the square were the liquid is but above, it shoudl also check the pressrue above. Its nonsensical to check the pressure on a tile it doesnt even emit to.

2 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

Lot of people repeat to you "This is not a bug"

Few people are saying that (at least in this thread). And they are wrong.

[Prince Mandor]

17 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

If we are talkign abotu the vent in luquid specifically, the broken part is that submerged vent checks the wrong tile for pressure. Since it emits the gas not on the square were the liquid is but above, it shoudl also check the pressrue above. Its nonsensical to check the pressure on a tile it doesnt even emit to.

Wrong. Vent exists in one cell, check this exact cell for pressure and emits gas in this exact cell.

Liquid with same liquid next to it moves away while new gas spawns, after that try to return to previous position and push gas out to nearby tile containing same gas. Yes, this happens in a game tick, in 0.2 seconds, but you can either use debugging tools or carefully prepared pausing notifiers to pause game each tick and see what exactly happens. You don't understand how game mechanic works, but insist it is a bug.

So, no, this part is not broken and works exactly by rules and as intended

17 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

Few people are saying that (at least in this thread). And they are wrong

But this people is mostly old-timers of this game, with big knowledge of game and authors of wiki technical pages.

Well, there are basic principle. "The burden of proof is on the person who brings a claim in a dispute". If you say it is a bug, it is you who must prove it. So far you don't even explain correctly what is broken

47 minutes ago, GluttonyMain said:

it woudl normally drip over the edge, but the pressure of the gasses would prevent it)

I just remind you -- don't dream about molecules in this game. There are no molecules, and as result there are no pressure. Not at all. No such conception in this game. Only mass. Thing we call "pressure damage" is just wrong wording of damage caused by mass of liquid.

In escher waterfall 100 milligrams of gas works fine, and why 100 milligrams must block flowing of 35 grams of water or several kilograms is eludes me.

[pnambic]

2 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

Just because teh game is coded certain way doesnt mean it cannot be a bug. EVERY bug is ultimately coded into the game unless you have faulty hardware that corrupts your memory or soemthing. Im willing to bet that when dev was codign the dropplet behaviour, they didnt think "I want players to be able pump liquides very fat without using any power and even against gravity, how do I code the mechanci so this is possible". Likely they coded it in a way they though would make sense, and players then discovered a bug.

I'll try the short sentence approach again...

"Design" says what should happen when, and how. Also, if two different things should happen, but can't both, design says what is more important.

"Code" is what programmers write to make the game behave like the design says it should.

Code can have bugs. Code bugs are easy. Design says A should happen, but B happens instead. Can be easy to fix (radbolt rain); can be difficult (liquid duplication). But it is clear what should happen.

Design can have bugs, sorta. It can contradict itself - easy fix. It can demand things that are too hard for computers - not so easy, must rethink. It can be not fun - worst of all, deep rethink necessary. Not at all clear what is correct, except that it should be fun.

Now to ONI. The design says:

• rules must be consistent. Players must be able to experiment and understand them, eventually.
• one element per tile (this is because other options are too hard for computers, and also it's easy to understand)
• more than one element per tile?
  • first priority is conservation of mass
  • if that's not possible, deleting mass is okay (this is again because other options are too hard for computers)

The code implements this correctly. There is no bug in the code in this context.

You say there is a bug, because Escher waterfalls are possible when they shouldn't be. That must be a bug in the design, then.

What must be changed to fix this bug? It is either "rules must be consistent", or "first priority is conservation of mass". The other things are there to make it possible to code the game at all.

[GluttonyMain]

1 hour ago, Prince Mandor said:

2 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

If we are talkign abotu the vent in luquid specifically, the broken part is that submerged vent checks the wrong tile for pressure. Since it emits the gas not on the square were the liquid is but above, it shoudl also check the pressrue above. Its nonsensical to check the pressure on a tile it doesnt even emit to.

Wrong. Vent exists in one cell, check this exact cell for pressure and emits gas in this exact cell.

Liquid with same liquid next to it moves away while new gas spawns, after that try to return to previous position and push gas out to nearby tile containing same gas. Yes, this happens in a game tick, in 0.2 seconds, but you can either use debugging tools or carefully prepared pausing notifiers to pause game each tick and see what exactly happens. You don't understand how game mechanic works, but insist it is a bug.

So, no, this part is not broken and works exactly by rules and as intended

What is with this worship of the code? Every bug is the reuslt of code. I dont care. The point is to make the game mase sense for the user. The user sees that the gas is deposited into already overpressure area adn that doesnt make sense since the vent normally overpressures. This is compeltely unintuitive behaviour. You can explain ltierally evrey signle bug by explainign how the code works.

1 hour ago, Prince Mandor said:

Well, there are basic principle. "The burden of proof is on the person who brings a claim in a dispute". If you say it is a bug, it is you who must prove it. So far you don't even explain correctly what is broken

I have, you just dont like it.

1 hour ago, Prince Mandor said:

2 hours ago, GluttonyMain said:

it woudl normally drip over the edge, but the pressure of the gasses would prevent it)

I just remind you -- don't dream about molecules in this game. There are no molecules, and as result there are no pressure. Not at all. No such conception in this game. Only mass. Thing we call "pressure damage" is just wrong wording of damage caused by mass of liquid.

In escher waterfall 100 milligrams of gas works fine, and why 100 milligrams must block flowing of 35 grams of water or several kilograms is eludes me.

Obiviously when i say pressure i mean the mass fo the tile. And the blockign was one example in SOME situations where it woudl be more intuitive. I also said that where applicable the liquid shoudl swap with the gas in sach a way that no overpressure happens (since the tiles just swap, both tiles still have the same pressreus they had before). Also you are the only one writing about molecules.

19 minutes ago, pnambic said:

I'll try the short sentence approach again...

"Design" says what should happen when, and how. Also, if two different things should happen, but can't both, design says what is more important.

"Code" is what programmers write to make the game behave like the design says it should.

Code can have bugs. Code bugs are easy. Design says A should happen, but B happens instead. Can be easy to fix (radbolt rain); can be difficult (liquid duplication). But it is clear what should happen.

Design can have bugs, sorta. It can contradict itself - easy fix. It can demand things that are too hard for computers - not so easy, must rethink. It can be not fun - worst of all, deep rethink necessary. Not at all clear what is correct, except that it should be fun.

Now to ONI. The design says:

• rules must be consistent. Players must be able to experiment and understand them, eventually.
• one element per tile (this is because other options are too hard for computers, and also easy to understand)
• more than one element per tile?
  • first priority is conservation of mass
  • if that's not possible, deleting mass is okay (this is again because other options are too hard for computers)

The code implements this correctly. There is no bug in the code in this context.

You say there is a bug, because Escher waterfalls are possible when they shouldn't be. That must be a bug in the design, then.

What must be changed to fix this bug? It is either "rules must be consistent", or "first priority is conservation of mass". The other things are there to make it possible to code the game at all.

Im not sure what you mean "ruiles must be consistent". Do you just mean there is no randomness? Because logically it already is inconsistent. When liquid moves horizontally it swaps but when it moves vertically it suddenly stops existign within simulation and than reapper. That already is a type of inconsistency. But since you talk abotu players beign able to understadn it I guess you mean it must be deterministinc, that there is no randomness (or even pseudorandomness). Which I absolutely agree, but I dont see why it is related to the issue.

I have already said how it should behave to be more intuitive. If liquid flow would couse overpressure, it should not flow. If liquid is above gas, swap them so gas is above liquid. Thats one way to make the game more intuitive, but not the only one. I would be more than happy for devs to try something even better. But liquid beign propelled into overpressure is not a reasonable behaviour.