Does Fuelweaver REALLY need his cheese back?

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Hahahaha how?? Elitism is playing the game without cheating??

maybe read own message?

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Using exploits is the exact same as if i was to c_spawn ("bone helm") or whatever.

Just remove the bug and use console commands

unavailable on other servers and consoles, weren't you constantly talking about playing on console needing to be as enjoyable as on PC, especially for people that aren't good at the game?

Edited April 16 by grm9

[Gashzer]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

maybe read own message?

Yes if you dont kill a boss you shouldnt receive the loot.  Nothing elitist about that, its called playing the game.

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

unavailable on other servers and consoles, weren't you constantly talking about playing on console needing to be as enjoyable as on PC, especially for people that aren't good at the game?

Ah so u want a way to cheat on public servers? I see your angle now 

Yeah consoles dont have access to console commands hence why ancient fuelweaver needs nerfed. Ty for spelling that out.

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yes if you dont kill a boss you shouldnt receive the loot.  Nothing elitist about that, its called playing the game

that's elitism, people should be allowed to have fun however they want, you simply want other people to not have fun because you don't like how they play the game, that's elitism and being a jerk

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Ah so u want a way to cheat on public servers? I see your angle now 

i didn't even use lureplants cheese btw

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah consoles dont have access to console commands hence why ancient fuelweaver needs nerfed. Ty for spelling that out

he doesn't, according to your own logic you're simply unworthy of getting his loot so shut up and get better, and with better reasoning that's a reason to add console commands and even if they won't since most console games seem to not have console nor mods, you can already cheese FW using gunpowder/brightshade staff

Edited April 16 by grm9

[Gashzer]

42 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's elitism, people should be allowed to have fun however they want, you simply want other people to not have fun because you don't like how they play the game, that's elitism and being a jerk

I know this sounds crazy but people should be expected to actual play the game. Its what we sign up for when we buy games...

49 minutes ago, grm9 said:

 

he doesn't, according to your own logic you're simply unworthy of getting his loot so shut up and get better, and with better reasoning that's a reason to add console commands and even if they won't since most console games seem to not have console nor mods, you can already cheese FW using gunpowder/brightshade staff

You have never played console or with a controller so how could you possibly understand what its like for those of us playing on console?

Shoehorning console players into needing to do the entirety of the CC quest line plus lunar rifts is limiting player freedom to choose what they want to do first.

Also telling me to shut up? Oho someone is getting a wee bit aggressive eh? 

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I know this sounds crazy but people should be expected to actual play the game. Its what we sign up for when we buy games

then let people play the game the way they want? using a bug doesn't mean that you have skipped the entirety of the game and never played it

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You have never played console or with a controller so how could you possibly understand what its like for those of us playing on console?

how does that matter? i know that walking is available on console and i assume that there's a way to attack whatever's closest to you and that's enough for FW, since you only need to swap equipment after he summons and after you kill unseen hands

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Shoehorning console players into needing to do the entirety of the CC quest line plus lunar rifts is limiting player freedom to choose what they want to do first

do minimal gear FW even in autumn then?

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Also telling me to shut up? Oho someone is getting a wee bit aggressive eh? 

that was according to your logic, since you said that people that use cheese are unworthy of having whatever happens after the boss' death happen, so they shouldn't complain about cheese getting removed and instead do the fight, even if they don't like it even though a lot of other people like it and wouldn't want it to get changed

Edited April 16 by grm9

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

then let people play the game the way they want? using a bug doesn't mean that you have skipped the entirety of the game and never played it

No but that doesnt mean Klei cant bug fix things or that the forums should get the torches and pitchforks out over it.

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

how does that matter? i know that walking is available on console and i assume that there's a way to attack whatever's closest to you and that's enough for FW, since you only need to swap equipment after he summons and after you kill unseen hands

Ahh sweet summer pc-player. You have never experienced DST in the true uncompromising way.

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that was according to your logic, since you said that people that use cheese are unworthy of having whatever happens after the boss' death happen, so they shouldn't complain about cheese getting removed or not liking the boss and instead fight

I have never and will never tell someone to shut up tho. People can complain about their need to be cheaters all they want. I'll be here to prove my point. And i think ive explained my point well enough regarding ancient fuelweavers need to be reworked.

Its down to Klei to make a decision.

[grm9]

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

No but that doesnt mean Klei cant bug fix things or that the forums should get the torches and pitchforks out over it

it makes sense for people to not want their fun to get taken away, considering that they aren't hurting anyone by having it, so it makes sense for people to ask to get it back after it gets taken away

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Ahh sweet summer pc-player. You have never experienced DST in the true uncompromising way

i'm not even sure about what's that about considering that everything i've mentioned is on console

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

People can complain about their need to be cheaters all they want

you're simply trying to shame on people in an obscure way, how are they cheating considering that there are no rules and even if there would've been, how would that matter considering that them using bugs isn't detrimental for anyone else?

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I have never and will never tell someone to shut up tho

only inexplicitly

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I'll be here to prove my point

what point?

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And i think ive explained my point well enough regarding ancient fuelweavers need to be reworked

there's no need for that because he's the most fun boss to fight imo

Edited April 16 by grm9

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

I know this sounds crazy but people should be expected to actual play the game. Its what we sign up for when we buy games...

Playing this game doesn't involve building structures and moving things around?

til... /s

[chaosmonkey]

Isn't the fuelweaver cheese still possible today it's just more expensive? Dreadstone pillars are a thing.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, chaosmonkey said:

Isn't the fuelweaver cheese still possible today it's just more expensive? Dreadstone pillars are a thing.

Yeah, which is part of why I'm so frustrated with Klei making this change.  They nuked lureplant, and why?  If it was to prevent Scrappy / AFW cheese then they failed.  A much better change could have been done that both preserved lureplant as a tool and actually cut off the cheese.  I've suggested it multiple times, even in the beta - just have AFW recognize when its health has reduced beyond first stage and cast invul / summon even if no one is in the arena.  1 change = all out of bounds cheese eliminated, and we don't get the fallout of other lureplant tactics being effected like moonstone duping, etc.

The nerf is so blind to the issue, I can only presume Klei rapid fired their response without any actual consideration.

[Gi-Go]

5 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Yeah, which is part of why I'm so frustrated with Klei making this change.  They nuked lureplant, and why?  If it was to prevent Scrappy / AFW cheese then they failed.  A much better change could have been done that both preserved lureplant as a tool and actually cut off the cheese.  I've suggested it multiple times, even in the beta - just have AFW recognize when its health has reduced beyond first stage and cast invul / summon even if no one is in the arena.  1 change = all out of bounds cheese eliminated, and we don't get the fallout of other lureplant tactics being effected like moonstone duping, etc.

The nerf is so blind to the issue, I can only presume Klei rapid fired their response without any actual consideration.

Can't you dupe moonstone with pillars too?

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Can't you dupe moonstone with pillars too?

There are other ways to do it, but lureplants was a good one.  There were other good uses for lureplant too.  RIP lureplant, but still AFW is cheesed... Great moves devs...

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

On 4/13/2024 at 1:54 PM, Yuuko said:

You don't respect the ingenuity that went into uncovering this application b/c you didn't figure it out, you just saw a video of it. 

I don't, because it really doesn't seem "ingenious" to me.

On 4/13/2024 at 1:54 PM, Yuuko said:

and there are a lot of uses for it IF you ever applied your imagination to the tool.

Okay then go ahead and list some examples. Don't just insult someone without actually providing evidence to your claim.

Edited April 17 by EATZYOWAFFLEZ
Double post moment

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

I don't, because it really doesn't seem "ingenious" to me.

Okay then go ahead and list some examples. Don't just insult someone without actually providing evidence to your claim.

Well, it all comes down to mob blocking of course but how you block mobs is different in each situation.  In AFW b/c you leave the arena and that messes with AFW behavior so he never casts invul / wovens.  Blocking lets you go AFK and hit F or let hondius kill him.  If you use lureplants along with signs and walls to block off Klaus and his deer at the right spots you can cut off Klaus from his spells and leap attack without triggering his rage mode.  This simplifies the fight a lot since you can stay stationary next to a heat / light source, and have a bit more freedom in tackling the krampus summoned.  The setup is cheap b/c you can hammer down the walls and signs, and kill the lureplants to refund all materials - great b/c Klaus spawns at a different spot each year.  Moonstone duping with bearger.  Put the lureplant next to the moon alter and put food behind them.  Lure bearger there and he'll walk endlessly to get at the food.  Repair the altar with moonrock and each time it breaks dropping 1-2 rock again.

Those two I'll give b/c they're more commonly known.  The rest I keep b/c I'm sick of seeing cool stuff removed in the patch notes, but its basically just getting creative with the tools you have.  If you like to play that way, these are the tools of interest.  I'm not excited about "ooh super weapon / armor."  Stronger stuff to hold F with is zzzzzzzzzzzz to me.  Its great when a game can feature tools for multiple play styles.

tbh though - I don't see how *anyone* can like this change.  Ppl who don't want AFW cheesed can't like this because it removes only 1 method of cheese while leaving several others there.  Why are ppl so glad lureplant got nuked when AFW and Scrappy didn't get fixed?  All this did was change what tools we used.  If Klei's intention wasn't to remove the cheese, why did they even change lureplant?  The whole thing is a bad step no matter how you cut it.  The only reason ppl are smug about it is b/c they like to mock the people who did appreciate tools like lureplants.

Edited April 17 by Yuuko

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

6 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Well, it all comes down to mob blocking of course but how you block mobs is different in each situation.  In AFW b/c you leave the arena and that messes with AFW behavior so he never casts invul / wovens.  Blocking lets you go AFK and hit F or let hondius kill him.  If you use lureplants along with signs and walls to block off Klaus and his deer at the right spots you can cut off Klaus from his spells and leap attack without triggering his rage mode.  This simplifies the fight a lot since you can stay stationary next to a heat / light source, and have a bit more freedom in tackling the krampus summoned.  The setup is cheap b/c you can hammer down the walls and signs, and kill the lureplants to refund all materials - great b/c Klaus spawns at a different spot each year.  Moonstone duping with bearger.  Put the lureplant next to the moon alter and put food behind them.  Lure bearger there and he'll walk endlessly to get at the food.  Repair the altar with moonrock and each time it breaks dropping 1-2 rock again.

So another fight simplification by blocking movement and item duping. The former is boring as hell and the later is a band aid fix for the mass production of moonrock. Lureplant blocking still seems lame.

6 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Those two I'll give b/c they're more commonly known.  The rest I keep b/c I'm sick of seeing cool stuff removed in the patch notes, but its basically just getting creative with the tools you have

What's the point of gatekeeping ideas that really on defunct mechanics? Or maybe the only thing you can do with lureplants is dumb down bosses by disabling their movement?

Feels like Klei was just tying up some loose ends on an exploit they had let run its course and ended up not finding value in. As for the other methods that do the exact same thing, unfortunately nothing can ever just be simple when it comes to DST's development :P. Hopefully with the addition of Wobot Klei is actually beginning to focus on giving players new tools to fiddle with, but we'll see.

 

Edited April 18 by EATZYOWAFFLEZ

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, EATZYOWAFFLEZ said:

So another fight simplification by blocking movement and item duping. The former is boring as hell and the later is a band aid fix for the mass production of moonrock. Lureplant blocking still seems lame.

Since you want to fight things, probably.  Since I enjoy automating things and bypassing fighting its great.  That is something unique that DST has long offered, the ability to play the game in a different way.  Its okay you don't like it, or don't understand it - just, why hate it?  Why get bothered over what someone else does in a different server completely removed from you?  idk why people do that.

If you want to fight scrapy, AFW, Toad, or whoever, you can.  You can do it naked with a pickaxe if it makes you feel cool.  The game never forces you to NOT fight something.  To me pressing F to attack is boring as hell, and adding a quicker attack pattern with extended stuns is just a bandaid fix for the fact that DST does not support good combat mechanics.  What Klei is trying to do with all of this new content is a fundamental shift away from everything that DST was built around.  I don't want the ability to fight things removed, but why remove these other things that were simply alternative options?

What is so wrong about being able to play a game differently?

Edited April 18 by Yuuko

[Gashzer]

4 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Since you want to fight things, probably.  Since I enjoy automating things and bypassing fighting its great.  That is something unique that DST has long offered, the ability to play the game in a different way.  Its okay you don't like it, or don't understand it - just, why hate it?  Why get bothered over what someone else does in a different server completely removed from you?  idk why people do that.

If you want to fight scrapy, AFW, Toad, or whoever, you can.  You can do it naked with a pickaxe if it makes you feel cool.  The game never forces you to NOT fight something.  To me pressing F to attack is boring as hell, and adding a quicker attack pattern with extended stuns is just a bandaid fix for the fact that DST does not support good combat mechanics.  What Klei is trying to do with all of this new content is a fundamental shift away from everything that DST was built around.  I don't want the ability to fight things removed, but why remove these other things that were simply alternative options?

What is so wrong about being able to play a game differently?

DST is a survival game not some sort of automation simulator. 

DST was never built around using bugs to automate bosses, DST is just so ridiculously difficult for new players that everyone gravitates towards using exploits for the harder bosses. Which is a clear sign for Klei to rework those bosses.

Klei themselves have admitted that DST is the hardest survival game out there right now. And it 100% is. They somehow need to emphasis the importance of wearing armour and give abit more instruction about how things work. The scrapbook is not great at explaining stuff. 

And Klei should reward dying in DST like in solo Dont starve by giving some unique spools for unique skins unrelated to current spool/skin pool. Also if you die, the game to explain in a pop up why you died so for example if i died by a bunnyman; maybe a small explanation of how bunnymen hate people carrying meat, herd mentality, their attack and hp, and some brief strategies on how to deal with them.

Current new content is great, Lunar bosses are very fun to fight. Right level of reward for learning the fight and danger if you mess it up. 

Edit: reward dying as in reward full server reset after death countdown.

Edited April 18 by Gashzer

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

DST is a survival game not some sort of automation simulator

that's why nothing's automated still, although it should be, i doubt that anyone has fun cooking stuff on campfires/in crock pots

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

DST is just so ridiculously difficult for new players that everyone gravitates towards using exploits for the harder bosses

source? exact percentage/some sort of announcement about the end of that survey?

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Which is a clear sign for Klei to rework those bosses

with your logic all hard games shouldn't exist, most old bosses aren't even hard to fight if you figure out how to counter them, but average DST player doesn't think and thinks that fighting toadstool using a ham bat is impossible, even though you can drop it onto the ground before dropping the spore bomb off to avoid it spoiling

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Klei themselves have admitted that DST is the hardest survival game out there right now. And it 100% is. They somehow need to emphasis the importance of wearing armour and give abit more instruction about how things work. The scrapbook is not great at explaining stuff

then explain to players that they need to think about how to counter bosses instead of trying to kill them by only using a weapon and attack and movement controls instead of trying to dumb bosses down so they only require that?

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

And Klei should reward dying in DST like in solo Dont starve by giving some unique spools for unique skins unrelated to current spool/skin pool. Also if you die, the game to explain in a pop up why you died so for example if i died by a bunnyman; maybe a small explanation of how bunnymen hate people carrying meat, herd mentality, their attack and hp, and some brief strategies on how to deal with them

entirely unrelated to old bosses also unless dying nearby them'll give you info about items that counter their mechanics existing e.g. bramble husk/abigail/pan flute/lunar fire/shadow prison/shadow sneak in case of BQ

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Current new content is great, Lunar bosses are very fun to fight. Right level of reward for learning the fight and danger if you mess it up

the most boring part of the game, i never do lunar questline because it's filled with boring crap like that that's just baby mode dark souls without the need to think or do hard to execute dodges, so they end up being nothing, simply an absurdly boring thing that anyone can kill after 1-2 attempts that just ends up being a boring waste of time after you kill it once because there's also no way to make it harder because even killing it using fist won't be hard, just absurdly time consuming and boring 

[Cruvimaster]

I see that the big problem with the different exploids in the game is Klei's passive stance. Klei leaves the exploids for years without doing anything. Then content creators, realizing this tolerant stance, tell new players that the only way to face a boss is to use an exploid. This ends up being the only reference for new players who never even try to execute the mechanics planned by the developers.

And what impresses me even more are members of this Forum with 1k to 5k registered messages. They have plenty of time to complain that they can no longer use cheese against AF, which is by far Klei's smartest combat dynamic, but they don't make the slightest effort to learn the boss's mechanics.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Cruvimaster said:

And what impresses me even more are members of this Forum with 1k to 5k registered messages. They have plenty of time to complain that they can no longer use cheese against AF, which is by far Klei's smartest combat dynamic, but they don't make the slightest effort to learn the boss's mechanics

i've done minimal gear FW multiple times and i still don't want klei to remove cheese because some people don't like fighting the boss and them removing cheese might mean that they'll remove voidwalking so fighting FW'll require finding atrium normally which is entirely RNG and unfun

2 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

I see that the big problem with the different exploids in the game is Klei's passive stance. Klei leaves the exploids for years without doing anything. Then content creators, realizing this tolerant stance, tell new players that the only way to face a boss is to use an exploid

that's a problem with people talking about stuff that they have no clue about, 1st few results are also usually cheeseless if you search for something like "dst fuelweaver guide/fight"

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

DST is a survival game not some sort of automation simulator. 

DST was never built around using bugs to automate bosses, DST is just so ridiculously difficult for new players that everyone gravitates towards using exploits for the harder bosses. Which is a clear sign for Klei to rework those bosses.

Couldn't be more wrong.  Survival games typically involve strategies around building structures, including exploiting them to manage combat.  The difference between a survival and an adventure game is that in an adventure game you're supposed to tackle everything with combat where a survival game would open the door for more options.  This new content is all more fitting for Rotwood or Forge than it is for DST.

For over 8 years DST has played this way, why does it need to change now?  This stuff is destroying what made DST a unique option among its competitors. 

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Also if you die, the game to explain in a pop up why you died so for example if i died by a bunnyman; maybe a small explanation of how bunnymen hate people carrying meat, herd mentality, their attack and hp, and some brief strategies on how to deal with them.

I'll throw out - this is a good idea.  The death screen would be a great point to break the immersion with a re-cap dumping a bit of exposition.  A few cute illustrations to go with some text about darkness, starving, freezing, monster that dealt damage, whatever killed them could make the experience a lot more positive and feel good.  The thing I'm worried about though is the whole "reward them for dying."  Some spools or a skin?  That is probably okay.  Meta progression is a bad direction though.  DST is one of the few flat progression games out there, pls Klei quit selling out everything that makes DST unique just to try and fit in with the popular crowd!

Edited April 18 by Yuuko

[BalkanCockroach]

9 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Sus

 

Edited April 18 by BalkanCockroach

[Reecitz]

56 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Couldn't be more wrong.  Survival games typically involve strategies around building structures, including exploiting them to manage combat.  The difference between a survival and an adventure game is that in an adventure game you're supposed to tackle everything with combat where a survival game would open the door for more options.  This new content is all more fitting for Rotwood or Forge than it is for DST.

For over 8 years DST has played this way, why does it need to change now?  This stuff is destroying what made DST a unique option among its competitors. 

I'll throw out - this is a good idea.  The death screen would be a great point to break the immersion with a re-cap dumping a bit of exposition.  A few cute illustrations to go with some text about darkness, starving, freezing, monster that dealt damage, whatever killed them could make the experience a lot more positive and feel good.  The thing I'm worried about though is the whole "reward them for dying."  Some spools or a skin?  That is probably okay.  Meta progression is a bad direction though.  DST is one of the few flat progression games out there, pls Klei quit selling out everything that makes DST unique just to try and fit in with the popular crowd!

I know you're upset, but quit being so extreme and dramatic with that last part there.