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Boss Tweaks/Rework Ideas


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As we've all probably seen lately, the idea of boss reworks have been thrown out there as a possible major fix to some of the problems the player base has been having with the game currently. We've seen with reworks in the past like AG how successful they can be (even if it's not perfect, it's a step in the right direction).

I have seen various rework ideas strewn across the forums, so I wanted to have a central location for those who have some potential rework ideas to some of the bosses that could definitely use it, be it complete overhauls of the mechanics or small tweaks to the numbers. And maybe, just maybe, some of them could be seen and considered for their inevitable reworks! 

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i wouldn't want any other bosses to be turned into something like AG, he's extremely boring and there's hardly any way to mess up the fight

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1 hour ago, grm9 said:

i wouldn't want any other bosses to be turned into something like AG, he's extremely boring and there's hardly any way to mess up the fight

He's basically the Uncompromising Mode version ("convergent parallel conclusion/evolution"?!) some of you people praise. Else, was the old DS one better? And if not either of them, what?

Bosses in dire need of rework would be CK and BQ.
Perhaps some tweaks to AFw and Toad on the line of Klaus' fight: difficulty scaling up with numbers while solo is a bit more lenient (doesn't spawn that many Woven Shadows, Unseen Hands, Sporecaps respectivelly); but also solving some long-standing issues, like default hitting Shadows spawned on other insane players while one is sane or retaining aggro after un-equipping Shadow Amulet/Bone Helm for long periods of time.

Will probably edit this post in future with concrete boss re-balance ideas.

Edited by MondayNight
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Reworking the games boss fights is an opportunity for Klei to do a little more with them then spam you with minions & attempt to hit the player with one slow swipe attack.

Dragonfly is big and scary, but when you use people’s Great Wall of China against her she just becomes a slightly faster walking treeguard you’ll hit a few times then dodge the slow swipe. Removing the Larvae completely out of the equation makes her Treeguard 2.0…

I want something that can be scaled both in how long it takes to kill, and in how much damage it can do to the player (world settings) but most importantly of all I want more complex and rewarding fights.

Here’s a few small examples of how I would’ve personally reworked the Dragonfly fight.

The orange lines are the firewalls she would be able to use against the player (oh the irony on that one…)

IMG_5959.jpeg.593d3b387f70126b4ef2adee2a5072ee.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.51afcbb275852feea3e9adf8a6e04de0.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.43b8d5813984611c3fa4581bb91fb06e.jpegIMG_5964.jpeg.f3580ecd81f7d69e5ec3492e446f8af5.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.181dbb22d87df20562d1c83dab7db3b3.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.42b34b7ccac3f3d5a1f854d3607feb65.jpeg

The intent is to make the player have to dodge the hazards as well as the actual boss.. (how about we just lessen or remove larvae altogether?)

If you guys have played Dungeon Slashers then you know what to expect from the boss, difficult.. with an attack pattern you need to familiarize yourself with to avoid getting caught up in the hazards while still trying to whittle away at the boss.

Cause the TL:DR is that in a game where Everything else is getting updated (farming, fishing, even combat thanks to character skills..) The rest of the game needs to advance with that.

Edited by Mike23Ua
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34 minutes ago, MondayNight said:

He's basically the Uncompromising Mode version ("convergent parallel conclusion/evolution"?!) some of you people praise. Else, was the old DS one better? And if not either of them, what?

both were bad except there was at least a risky but rewarding strat of cancelling every charge in case of the old AG, i don't like UM and BQ rework in it is about as boring as AG

36 minutes ago, MondayNight said:

Bosses in dire need of rework would be CK and BQ.
Perhaps some tweaks to AFw and Toad on the line of Klaus' fight: difficulty scaling up with numbers while solo is a bit more lenient (doesn't spawn that many Woven Shadows, Unseen Hands, Sporecaps respectivelly); but also solving some long-standing issues, like default hitting Shadows spawned on other insane players while one is sane or retaining aggro after un-equipping Shadow Amulet/Bone Helm for long periods of time

all fights you've mentioned are currently fine, hard and fun for solo except BQ because it's simply a puzzle fight and birds and items shouldn't block boat placement for CK fight to be better because bird RNG could kill you, i wouldn't want FW and toadstool to become easier and simpler because there are already many ways to kill them when playing solo, you can use brightshade staff, lazy explorer and nightmare amulet for FW and weather pains and dark swords for toadstool if they're too hard for you or armor, weapon, healing, sanity food and insanity food and ham bat and torch otherwise, the only thing i'd want would be making it so shadows consistently deaggro after attempting to attack 3 times if deaggro RNG didn't proc before that

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28 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Reworking the games boss fights is an opportunity for Klei to do a little more with them then spam you with minions & attempt to hit the player with one slow swipe attack.

Dragonfly is big and scary, but when you use people’s Great Wall of China against her she just becomes a slightly faster walking treeguard you’ll hit a few times then dodge the slow swipe. Removing the Larvae completely out of the equation makes her Treeguard 2.0…

I want something that can be scaled both in how long it takes to kill, and in how much damage it can do to the player (world settings) but most importantly of all I want more complex and rewarding fights.

Here’s a few small examples of how I would’ve personally reworked the Dragonfly fight.

The orange lines are the firewalls she would be able to use against the player (oh the irony on that one…)

IMG_5959.jpeg.593d3b387f70126b4ef2adee2a5072ee.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.51afcbb275852feea3e9adf8a6e04de0.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.43b8d5813984611c3fa4581bb91fb06e.jpegIMG_5964.jpeg.f3580ecd81f7d69e5ec3492e446f8af5.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.181dbb22d87df20562d1c83dab7db3b3.jpegIMG_5959.jpeg.42b34b7ccac3f3d5a1f854d3607feb65.jpeg

The intent is to make the player have to dodge the hazards as well as the actual boss.. (how about we just lessen or remove larvae altogether?)

If you guys have played Dungeon Slashers then you know what to expect from the boss, difficult.. with an attack pattern you need to familiarize yourself with to avoid getting caught up in the hazards while still trying to whittle away at the boss.

Cause the TL:DR is that in a game where Everything else is getting updated (farming, fishing, even combat thanks to character skills..) The rest of the game needs to advance with that.

The last pic of the rotating fire maze is such a cool idea for dfly! 

You are definitely onto a winning idea for a dfly rework.

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7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The last pic of the rotating fire maze is such a cool idea for dfly! 

You are definitely onto a winning idea for a dfly rework.

I wish more people would actually play the games I reference, in Dungeon Slashers the first big end of chapter boss battle you’ll face is “greed” and at a certain point (around 2000 health left) Greed will shroud the entire map in complete darkness armor up in an unbreakable Forcefield and take ruthless swipe attacks at the player, in order to actually defeat Greed (spoilers below)

Spoiler

You have forget about attacking Greed, and focus on attacking his torches that are hidden in the dark, once you light all his torches up Greed is vulnerable to attack again.

And to me that just seems like something an AFW rework should do with idk surrounding Nightmare Fissure Lights or something.

My point without turning this into a massive TL:DR is that there is always room for improvement in old concepts of the game, the question is though- Is Klei brave and bold enough to face whatever backlash & criticisms they may get for changing up their game?

Cause ima keep it real- If these forums were shutdown today, and instead of reverting changes they make when a few of the “forum voices” complain about them, Klei would be designing the game they want to make- And not bending to the will of their players desires.

But hey what do I know right? I’m just some guy with an opinion *shrugs*

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I think the AG rework was good in the sense that the classic AG fight was very bad.  You did pillar cheese, came back with enough to tank and trade with it, or became proficient at a fight with extremely tight timing and difficult to read attack trajectories.  People fighting it manually were also exploiting a bug that had AG drop aggro for a few moments (or longer) so even ppl fighting it "legit" were exploiting a bug.  From there, anything would be an improvement.  The new AG fight was very novel for its time with the stun, and scripted interactions.  It is still a very basic fight, which is good b/c it feels like a nice early game battle currently.  Something climactic and rewarding for a ruins rush.

The only down side is that many fights since the AG rework - specifically with the current arc - have followed the same extremely scripted and restricted rule sets.  The zombosses are alright as they are just elevating the early game boss fights to be something a bit more enjoyable late, but I REALLY hope Klei breaks off of this "dodge this, do that, get a stun, and anything but approved weapons and armor will be punished."

I think most boss fights are pretty close to good right now, considering all of the tools we've gained since their addition to the game.  The main 3 I think anyone would point to are CK, BQ, and Toad.

CK - I think this needs less tweaks than we might think.  I've seen some methods of fighting this as is, and mods that tweaked it that made it look really fun.  The changes I'd propose is to have the claws only slow movement rather than halting it completely, drop claw health by 150~ across the board, and add a visual indicator at the beginning of the window where attacks will cancel its heal.  Also just a QOL for boats - placing a boat should push things out of the way on placement.  Not just in CK fight, but always - but this is relevant to CK fight.

BQ - The main issue with this fight is that the opportunities for damage are pretty low.  Since Willow's skill tree I've used her lunar flame on Bee Queen and I've noticed the respawn rate of the grumbles isn't that fast IF you can kill them all at once.  Other CC methods like Wormwood's sleep shroom and pan flute have also been used to great effect in this fight.  Also the wall method does still work...  Probably some tweaks with grumble health and speed, slow them down a bit and maybe put them at 150 health, and only spawn 3 per player within x tiles of bqueen would do.

Toad - The fight is long, but we've received new tools like glass axes that help a LOT with this fight...  I think if we just changed the sporecap levels, which are currently 0, 1-4, 5-7, and 8+ to something like 0-2, 2-4, 5-7, 8+ it would feel a lot better.  The damage absorption is really annoying, and chopping every single tree can take a lot.  If you opt to burn a sporecap it takes a painfully long time to burn AND you get the poison cloud as punishment anyway... so I think having flexibility for 1-2 sporecaps to be burning or just left standing and getting back to attacking it would help a lot.

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

in Dungeon Slashers the first big end of chapter boss battle you’ll face is “greed” and at a certain point (around 2000 health left) Greed will shroud the entire map in complete darkness armor up in an unbreakable Forcefield and take ruthless swipe attacks at the player, in order to actually defeat Greed

You have forget about attacking Greed, and focus on attacking his torches that are hidden in the dark, once you light all his torches up Greed is vulnerable to attack again.

And to me that just seems like something an AFW rework should do with idk surrounding Nightmare Fissure Lights or something.

Yeah wouldn't it be cool if after a bit of the fight AFW did some cool animation, and became TOTALLY invulnerable.  In order to defeat AFW

You have to attack shadow torches that spawn around the arena that you could only attack if you were also insane yourself!  BUT if you're insane AFW also gets a special attack against you, so you have to be careful about being insane too long!

Really cool idea.

Man I wish some ppl played the same games I did too...

Edited by Yuuko
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4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Reworking the games boss fights is an opportunity for Klei to do a little more with them then spam you with minions & attempt to hit the player with one slow swipe attack.

Dragonfly is big and scary, but when you use people’s Great Wall of China against her she just becomes a slightly faster walking treeguard you’ll hit a few times then dodge the slow swipe. Removing the Larvae completely out of the equation makes her Treeguard 2.0…

I want something that can be scaled both in how long it takes to kill, and in how much damage it can do to the player (world settings) but most importantly of all I want more complex and rewarding fights.

Here’s a few small examples of how I would’ve personally reworked the Dragonfly fight.

The orange lines are the firewalls she would be able to use against the player (oh the irony on that one…)

This is just a generic boss fight in any MMO. It works and is fun but simultaneously it is pretty uninspired. I know it sounds harsh and rude but I am trying to come from a place of love.

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I'm still unclear about how everyone on the Klei forums views the Misery Toadstool, but in our country's gaming community, almost everyone hates it. However, our opinions are harder to reach Klei. The high health value of Toadstool is frustrating, especially for solo players. It hardly hurts the player, but the player also finds it difficult to cause effective damage to it. It has too many Sporecaps, all identical, and players must chop down all of them to avoid wasting weapon durability. I think Toadstool could have differently colored Sporecaps. Red ones enhance the pre-explosion of Boomshroom, making them more dangerous; green ones provide a constant frenzy aura to the BOSS; only blue ones provide damage reduction and health regeneration to the BOSS; Lunar Sporecaps release special spores that chase and attack players like Moongleam. Skilled players can choose to chop down only the blue Sporecaps, but the cost is that they are more likely to get hurt. Few people are killed by Slurtle, but few also want to kill it to get its shell, despite it being a helmet with 90% defense. In my opinion, Toadstool is a BOSS version of Slurtle; it's not threatening and hardly kills anyone, but fighting it is still frustrating.
 

Edited by Shining Galaxy
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