PLEASE CHANGE FUELWEAVER

[arubaro]

41 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Oh but you are so wrong.. you NEED to defeat him to unlock more survival Sandbox content AND your character Affinity skills.

Sure I can always toggle rifts on from Day 1 and just enjoy the new After AFW sandbox survival stuff.. but I’ll be critically judged by these forums until I do it the “legit, intended way” and even WHEN I do that.. I doubt it’ll be enough to validate any credibility I should have.

my opinion is that when AFW was the actual final thing you do in the game (Final Boss) then it made sense for it to be this tough enduring fight.. as it was the big end game challenge. But the further away Klei moves the goal post… the easier old content needs to get.

To summarize this so anyone can easily understand- It’s like trying to kick a field goal on Football, you wouldn’t do it from the other side of the field now would you?

You only need to kill him if you want to activate the difficult content so makes no sense to nerf the difficult fight that triggers it

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:27 AM, hoxi said:

Shadow Creatures interactions with sane players being one

omg the shadow creatures biting you when sane is the bane of my existence. 

I think a small change, but good, change would be to adjust the initial health regen of the wovens. What I mean is the first woven would restore 100 health, the second 200, and then the rest would restore 400 like usual. Would be a bit more forgiving if you miss a few wovens, but wouldn't change FW's massive regen potential.

[grm9]

26 minutes ago, arubaro said:

You only need to kill him if you want to activate the difficult content so makes no sense to nerf the difficult fight that triggers it

ink blights, shadow rifts shadows, acid rain, acid bats etc. are much easier than FW tbf

[Mike23Ua]

20 minutes ago, grm9 said:

ink blights, shadow rifts shadows, acid rain, acid bats etc. are much easier than FW tbf

Ink trio is actually fun, I like how they’ll chase you all over, unlike most the games bosses who always run back to their little “arena” Not everyone shares my excitement of being Under-Prepared and having a ruthless InkBlight Trio chasing after you, but I find it fun watching that messed up bird thing flip towards you or the big blobby one throwing projectiles at you.

I also enjoy how Brightshades can “troll” resources so the player can’t reach them.

But the thing about these changes is that under normal unlock conditions- Klei expects you to be a literal boss slaying GOD at that point… which means that all the newer challenges won’t be much challenge.

I can firmly say that if the game just had a “through the ages” style difficulty spike (where it continues to ramp up over-time) that the newer content would “force” itself into the players rather than the player having fully prepared for it ahead of time.

[arubaro]

57 minutes ago, grm9 said:

ink blights, shadow rifts shadows, acid rain, acid bats etc. are much easier than FW tbf

I know, is something pretty obvious lol, but there wont be any real difficult content if we start nerfing the only fight that requires something more than holding F and bring enough armor and food based on how bad we kite just because people wanted to skip it and now they have to deal with it

[finn from human]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

but there wont be any real difficult content if we start nerfing the only fight that requires something more than holding F and bring enough armor and food based on how bad we kite

I don't think it's hard and I'm not asking to nerf it. I just want it to be fun.

[hoxi]

17 hours ago, grm9 said:

you're just doing the fight the easy way that requires a lot of preparation and blaming the game

I'm still trying to figure out what this means outside of just being petty.

4 hours ago, arubaro said:

just because people wanted to skip it and now they have to deal with it

Not everyone that is currently suggesting or asking for tweaks to the fight was skipping it by exploiting oversights or so, in case that isn't clear enough (I personally had issues with the way the fight is handled since it was added way back, but I wasn't unable to complete it), though either way they wouldn't be invalidated if so, but here you are insisting on being petty about it.

[grm9]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:51 AM, hoxi said:

I'm still trying to figure out what this means outside of just being petty

you complained that FW requires a lot of specific items and that you can't dodge bone cage but you can, it has a 15 units range, so 3.75 tiles, and he starts it if you're within a 12 units radius around him, so 3 tiles, so you need to move through 3/4 of a tile before his hand hits the floor to dodge bone cage, you can lure him away from woven shadows to not use weather pain and you can go far away before you get mind controlled so he doesn't hit you, then eat sanity food so he doesn't mind control you a 2nd time

Edited March 24 by grm9

[finn from human]

31 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can't dodge bone cage but you can, it has a 15 units range, so 3.75 tiles, and he starts it if you're within a 12 units radius around him, so 3 tiles, so you need to move through a tile before his hand hits the floor to dodge bone cage

how are you hitting the boss when you're 12 units away

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, finn from human said:

how are you hitting the boss when you're 12 units away

bone cage has a 10 seconds cd, you can attack it in between bone cage casts and you don't need to attack him while killing unseen hands and you could tank in between unseen hands and woven shadows casts to maximize dps

[Gi-Go]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:15 AM, finn from human said:

I do not intend to argue or defend this stance in replies.

So that was a lie. 

[finn from human]

4 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

So that was a lie. 

I said that because I was under the impression that the responses would be people who just like the current design of the Fuelweaver fight, and I didn't feel the need to argue over something subjective whenever I just wanted to make sure Klei saw that it wasn't a unanimous opinion. I only decided to step in because of every single replying being "if you think the FW is too hard then you need to GET GOOD and not ask for it to be nerfed", whenever I don't find the Fuelweaver to be hard nor am I asking for the fight to be nerfed. Hopefully saying that sentiment for the third time will make it actually register.

[Gi-Go]

8 hours ago, finn from human said:

I only decided to step in because of every single replying being "if you think the FW is too hard then you need to GET GOOD and not ask for it to be nerfed", whenever I don't find the Fuelweaver to be hard nor am I asking for the fight to be nerfed. Hopefully saying that sentiment for the third time will make it actually register.

I wonder why? Is it the "PLEASE CHANGE FUELWEAVER"? Is it the fact that you want fuelweaver to get ancient guardian treatment (the most boring and braindead boss in the game)? Is it the fact you get frustrated at a boss but act like he is no big deal? 

[finn from human]

12 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Is it the fact that you want fuelweaver to get ancient guardian treatment (the most boring and braindead boss in the game)?

The "ancient guardian treatment" being interpreted as "i want the fuelweaver to be made EASY and BORING like THE ANCIENT GUARDIAN who i LOVE because he's EASY AND BORING!!" is super super bad faith. I would like the Fuelweaver to be given the Ancient Guardian treatment as in I would like all the thematics and ideas behind the mechanics to stay but I want them to be made to feel fun though.

12 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Is it the fact you get frustrated at a boss but act like he is no big deal? 

This isn't a contradiction. I think the Fuelweaver is a frustrating and annoying fight, I don't think he's a difficult and challenging fight. I think that when I defeat a boss in DST I generally go "yeah!! woohoo!! I beat the boss and feel a sense of accomplishment!" while when I defeat the Fuelweaver I instead go "ugh, okay, finally, that's over, I can get back to playing the part of the game that I like". I do not struggle with performing this fight, I just find myself actively annoyed by the actions that I have to do. I wish it was fun.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, finn from human said:

The "ancient guardian treatment" being interpreted as "i want the fuelweaver to be made EASY and BORING like THE ANCIENT GUARDIAN who i LOVE because he's EASY AND BORING!!" is super super bad faith

people aren't saying that you want FW to become boring and easy, but that they think that AG is boring and easy and they don't want FW to become like AG

5 minutes ago, finn from human said:

I would like the Fuelweaver to be given the Ancient Guardian treatment as in I would like all the thematics and ideas behind the mechanics to stay but I want them to be made to feel fun though

that's unrelated to AG rework since previously it was a rook and now you just need to make it ram into stuff to start holding F near it

5 minutes ago, finn from human said:

I wish it was fun

have you tried some of the harder ways to do the fight (e.g. no lazy explorer/brightshade staff/weather pain/nightmare amulet), out of curiosity? they remove inventory management so the only annoying part that remains is nightmares RNG, there's also stuff like using bramble armor, abigail, lunar fire etc. for woven shadows

Edited March 24 by grm9

[Gi-Go]

38 minutes ago, finn from human said:

I would like the Fuelweaver to be given the Ancient Guardian treatment as in I would like all the thematics and ideas behind the mechanics to stay but I want them to be made to feel fun though.

The problem I have with this thread is that you basically said nothing at all. Fuelweaver is not fun make him 20% more fun. What does that even mean. 

43 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's unrelated to AG rework since previously it was a rook and now you just need to make it ram into stuff to start holding F near it

In AG defense, you can fight him without pillars if you so choose. 

[abrocator]

AF is the most impressive boss fight design mechanically. When it was released it encouraged you to go play mechanically skillfully and to master your inventory management if you wanted to have a comfortable chance. And that’s the first time I’ve seen that the developers tried to make skillful mechanic play mandatory in order to proceed/beat the boss. Up to that point it felt like that was just something optional that skilled players did to save time/resources.

Edited March 24 by abrocator

[grm9]

25 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

In AG defense, you can fight him without pillars if you so choose

that's even longer and more boring

Edited March 24 by grm9

[Gi-Go]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's even longer and more boring

So, pillar method is better than no pillar method? but worse than unreworked ag? But unreworked ag is worse than no pillar method? What.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

So, pillar method is better than no pillar method? but worse than unreworked ag? But unreworked ag is worse than no pillar method? What

both aren't fun imo

Edited March 24 by grm9

[finn from human]

41 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Fuelweaver is not fun make him 20% more fun. What does that even mean.

I want Klei to make it more fun because Klei knows how to make things fun now.

[grm9]

49 minutes ago, finn from human said:

I want Klei to make it more fun because Klei knows how to make things fun now

imo new bosses are worse than old bosses and i wouldn't want FW to get turned into something like them, maybe add new bosses that are similar to werepig if people unironically like dodging 1-3 times and holding F instead of effectively removing old bosses and replacing them with new bosses

[Gi-Go]

55 minutes ago, grm9 said:

both aren't fun imo

Then why do you tell people how much you dislike AG rework every time someone mentiones the boss. Seems like you hate him either way so no point in criticizing rework. 

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Then why do you tell people how much you dislike AG rework every time someone mentiones the boss. Seems like you hate him either way so no point in criticizing rework

because it didn't make the fight fun so i wouldn't want other bosses to get similar reworks

[DegenerateFurry]

Fuelweaver's fight is stupidly easy with 3+ players and stupidly unfun inventory management jank solo. It's not that it's hard, it's that it's tedious and annoying, and it requires a lot more prep than it should for how early it can be done. It literally takes less prep than beating CC and you can start the fight with way less time invested getting to it (you can kill the Shadow Pieces on day 1 with ideal worldgen as Woodie/with decent worldgen as Woodie with a Walter or Wolfgang to transport things, and Guardian can also be killed before day 4 as Woodie even if you spend day 1 killing the pieces). 

It's also designed in such a way that it requires the constant swapping of inventory items, so it's hostile to Woodie players since they can't use the weremoose form. If there was some alternative to the swapping, even if it was difficult or required taking hits, that'd be less of a problem. Cheesing him with Treeguards is, like with Toadstool, a totally fair strategy since the game takes away Woodie's primary combat method.

Woodies aside, no boss fight that requires an extremely specific method to be used is well-designed. People hate Crab King (among other reasons) because you have to spam ice staffs, weather pains (as most characters to interrupt his healing - some like Wicker have other options), and boat patches/boards, and as long as you don't mess that up, the fight's extremely boring and easy - but if you do mess it up, you're kind of screwed. 

Fuelweaver has the exact same problem, but a million times worse because of just how fast-paced the inventory management is and how much more complex it is. Also, you generally need more stuff to spam at Fuelweaver to interrupt all of his healing and invincibility mechanics, and unless you time everything right to maximize his vulnerable period, you'll barely have any time to be able to damage him between wasting valuable resources trying to make him vulnerable again. He's a boss I'd never fight normally, with pre-CC gear, unless I was Wolfgang with spicy voltgoat jelly during Spring. It's just a frustrating slog that wastes stuff I'd rather use for anything else, and the worst part is that, unlike Misery Toadstool, I'd have to rebattle Fuelweaver multiple times to regen the ruins (say, for multiple Shootiuses). 

Allowing us to cheese Fuelweaver using a lure plant or spider den makes him speedrunnable and it's also a good compromise between people who, for some unfathomable reason, enjoy the way his fight currently is and the people who wish they didn't have to suffer through it or swap character to get it out of the way to access rifts content, so they need to bring that back or change Fuelweaver (and probably Toadstool too) to suck less for solo players.

Another possible compromise: make Fuelweaver's vulnerable period longer with less players. At least double it if there's only one player present for the fight. It'd still have the same problems some people like, but they'd not be quite as oppressive towards people who don't want to spend twenty hours mastering the janky inventory management.