What do you NOT want in a Wurt skill tree?

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

1. Don't add straight up buffs to merms in combat. They are already powerful once set up, add new combat options instead.

This has to happen since they're lacking post rift so no upgrades means Wurt just becomes just as bad end game as she is early game.

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

2. No combat focus. There can be some combat things, maybe add 1 new combat follower, but combat followers is meant to be webber's thing. Wurt's thing should be utility.

3. Don't make merm houses cheaper (unless it is in an interesting way). A problem with Wurt is that she is underpowered without her merms, but once they are set up, she is the polar opposite. Instead, Klei can try to aim to bridge the gap by adding more Wurt upsides in between. (I like the formula of unlocking a new merm, and then unlocking a skill related to its.

These are probably also going to have to happen unless klei gets creative because as it stands Wurt's end game power doesn't really have enough payoff for the sheer amount of effort you put in when compared to alternatives that are often far faster and less time consuming. As it stands Wurt works to hardest to get her followers going, puts in the most effort to keep them recruited, and has to maintain a king after finishing his collection questline.

Compare that to Webber whose followers are semi immortal and don't require maintaince while being useable far more often and in more fights overall than merms.

Or Maxwell whose followers are more or less better merms accessable straight out of spawn who are also usable in far more situations than merms.

 

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

4. Nothing like "Gain more health from the merm king". It crosses the line with wx, and would be filler that does not improve Wurt.

I do agree this shouldn't happen though

 

Something I do think should happen but not be a skill is just to remove the merm king's hunger mechanic as the game is leaning more and more harder into a more casual relaxed experience I feel like there's not much point in making Wurt maintain the kings hunger anymore I also think this should be extended to Webber as well by making it so his decorations no longer fall off.

[Masked Koopa]

I'd want them to avoid nominal early-game stuff if it comes at a cost to lategame stuff. Granted you could probably have a pretty substantial lategame with just a handfull of significant skills, but I'd really prefer as much of her skill tree perks go toward enhancing what she can do later on so webber can focus on being the early game guy.

I also don't want the lategame stuff to just be like mid-late or have a nominal cost. I want a spark ark craft or something that requires copius amounts of dreadstone or other such rare loot. RN a lot of characters focus on immediate power, and i'd hate it if Wurt ended up in the same poisition.

[zhangsheng]

The fish man civilization was originally transformed from the lost civilization, so I would prefer to increase their functionality rather than combat, such as the old fish man in the shipwreck DLC, which is a good idea.

[Jakepeng99]

7 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

This has to happen since they're lacking post rift so no upgrades means Wurt just becomes just as bad end game as she is early game.

Make the buff only accessable after riffs then. (Also wurt is still one of the strongest late game characters)

7 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

These are probably also going to have to happen unless klei gets creative because as it stands Wurt's end game power doesn't really have enough payoff for the sheer amount of effort you put in when compared to alternatives that are often far faster and less time consuming. As it stands Wurt works to hardest to get her followers going, puts in the most effort to keep them recruited, and has to maintain a king after finishing his collection questline

Merm warriors are already the strongest followers in the game. They would kill the skill tree and design (rip webber) and it doesn't need to happen, they can focus on utility like memrs being able to autotomatically collect resources.

7 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Compare that to Webber whose followers are semi immortal and don't require maintaince while being useable far more often and in more fights overall than merms.

Or Maxwell whose followers are more or less better merms accessable straight out of spawn who are also usable in far more situations than merms.

So instead give them more niches instead of making them more like them, that is the main problem. (Also merms are much better than spider)

Edited March 6 by Jakepeng99

[arubaro]

I dont want skill perks about crafting new houses because, as already happens with other recipe perks like wigfrid's song box or wormwood's plants recipes, you craft them and reset the skill tree to pick other perks

I want merms helping you tile the ground, uprooting trunks or helping to row

For sure they will add planar perks but they could add also the ability for merms to mine pure brillance faster or chop hard materials (we still need them but were foreshadowed in woodie's skill tree)

Wurt doesnt need straight up buffs so they can add little perks to her merms to add more variety to her gameplay 

[Mysterious box]

5 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Merm warriors are already the strongest followers in the game. They would kill the skill tree and design (rip webber) and it doesn't need to happen, they can focus on utility like memrs being able to autotomatically collect resources.

When you say merms are the strongest followers in the game I have to ask in what aspect? Durability? Spiders beat them. Damage output? Bunnymen are comparable in most fights where it matters and in every other scenario general followers are just as good when it comes to combat as most fights aren't boss fights and many others followers just can't be used in. I get it on paper merms have high stats but that doesn't actually translate into being as powerful as you might think. I'm not saying I'd want Wurt's skill tree to be power for the sake of power or anything but end game Wurt just comes up short after putting in so much work she needs a better selling point than just after making a stupid number of houses she can blitz down afew specific bosses.

6 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

So instead give them more niches instead of making them more like them, that is the main problem. (Also merms are much better than spider)

Merms being better than spiders is debatable as I've already previously mentioned spiders are far more durable than merms due to having a healer and that actually matters alot as it means spiders are usable in far more combat situations. Then add on the fact you have actual control over them and it makes a massive difference merms definitely win in terms of raw dps but that only matters in fights where they can blitz down their target before their hp runs out while spiders instead impose a dps check on bosses to see if they can burst their hp down before they get healed. But aside from those factors spiders are far more relaxed to use in the day to day. Also while merms can chop and mine, spiders offer really great utility in some of their variants as well.

The point I'm getting at is Wurt puts in a ton of effort for her followers but the end result doesn't really justify it I'm not against them trying to give merms something new to flesh them out in a interesting way but as it stands endgame Wurt is not overpowered she's just competent and the overall costs of her crafts should probably be slashed.

 

[marshyds]

actual merm society with business and other conduct instead of more slave work with fights and chopping (totally real)

Edited March 6 by marshyds

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

When you say merms are the strongest followers in the game I have to ask in what aspect? Durability? Spiders beat them. Damage output? Bunnymen are comparable in most fights where it matters and in every other scenario general followers are just as good when it comes to combat as most fights aren't boss fights and many others followers just can't be used in. I get it on paper merms have high stats but that doesn't actually translate into being as powerful as you might think. I'm not saying I'd want Wurt's skill tree to be power for the sake of power or anything but end game Wurt just comes up short after putting in so much work she needs a better selling point than just after making a stupid number of houses she can blitz down afew specific bosses.

Merms being better than spiders is debatable as I've already previously mentioned spiders are far more durable than merms due to having a healer and that actually matters alot as it means spiders are usable in far more combat situations. Then add on the fact you have actual control over them and it makes a massive difference merms definitely win in terms of raw dps but that only matters in fights where they can blitz down their target before their hp runs out while spiders instead impose a dps check on bosses to see if they can burst their hp down before they get healed. But aside from those factors spiders are far more relaxed to use in the day to day. Also while merms can chop and mine, spiders offer really great utility in some of their variants as well.

The point I'm getting at is Wurt puts in a ton of effort for her followers but the end result doesn't really justify it I'm not against them trying to give merms something new to flesh them out in a interesting way but as it stands endgame Wurt is not overpowered she's just competent and the overall costs of her crafts should probably be slashed.

 

Merms are durable, have fear immunity, high dpd and work at all times of die.

 

Spiders die to mobs with too high damage since nurse wont be able to heal enough and dont kite, so are destoryed in multiple boss fights such as cc, the eyes, and others unlike merms. (Also they are more expensive overtime). The 50 damage threshold is major for merms. Bunnymen are too frail and are akward at daytime (also cost signifcanty more to befriend)

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Merms are durable, have fear immunity, high dpd and work at all times of die.

 

Spiders die to mobs with too high damage since nurse wont be able to heal enough and dont kite, so are destoryed in multiple boss fights such as cc, the eyes, and others unlike merms. (Also they are more expensive overtime). The 50 damage threshold is major for merms. Bunnymen are too frail and are akward at daytime (also cost signifcanty more to befriend)

Merms guards only have about 250 more hp than spiders and they don't have healers meaning overall they're less durable than spiders. Also their kitting does not increase their survivability in boss fights. Any situation where high hp spiders with nurses are dying merms are meeting the same fate unless it's from them panicking.

Merms are durable but not as durable as spiders, merms have high dps but that only really matters for afew specific boss fights, merms have fear immunity but again only mattering for afew specific boss fights, merms work at all times of the day and are cheaper to recruit than base followers but are more expensive to both access and maintain than character based follower alternatives. There in lies the problem you put in so much work for followers who are about as good as alternatives that require far less work or maintenance.

As for bunnymen you only need to recruit 1 and the rest with defend it due to herd mentality.

Edited March 6 by Mysterious box

[Jakepeng99]

14 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Merms guards only have about 250 more hp than spiders and they don't have healers meaning overall they're less durable than spiders. Also their kitting does not increase their survivability in boss fights. Any situation where high hp spiders with nurses are dying merms are meeting the same fate.

The kiting does increase survivability from aoe attacks, they also still work well against single target, especially in smaller groups.

 

Against single target, you are already winning with both merms and spiders. Spiders are better against single target bosses (except bee queen where merms are better) and weak aoe bosses they can outheal, though merms are better as brute force against the more powerful bosses when combined with their kiting, and are much more expendable since they respawn upon death.

14 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

merms have fear immunity but again only mattering for afew specific boss fights,

The main boss you want to use followers against is bee queen. The fear immunity also makes merms pretty much the only usable follower against the twins of terror.

 

14 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

As for bunnymen you only need to recruit 1 and the rest with defend it due to herd mentality.

This requires you to make the bunny houses in the location you need them. They wont work for daily combat, or more mobile boss fights. Setting them up at bee queen can be bad for multiplayer for Webber and Wortox players, or even any players since it is an invasive strategy. Bunnymen are good but merms are superior.

 

Also for merm's cost, you can still turn them into resources and food twice daily so they are a good investement once set up that do multiple things.

 

(And, i think Webber follower's should be better than merms in combat)

Edited March 6 by Jakepeng99

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

I know this thread is supposed to be about what we "don't" want, but I have an idea that is too good not to share.

Wurt should have a craftable Merm-King-Feeder, which allows her (and only her) to store excess food for the Merm King to eat. The feeder would resemble a stereotypical fish bowl sat on a wooden platform, with a robotic arm attached to the platform that holds a fish flake shaker over the bowl. Whenever the Merm King's hunger reaches 50 (1/4th of the max), the robotic arm will shake fish flakes into the bowl, and the king will scoop the flakes out with his hand to eat them.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

The kiting does increase survivability from aoe attacks, they also still work well against single target, especially in smaller groups.

In theory it does in practice however it doesn't as they usually just run straight into attacks or dash away when there's no attack in sight it can line up perfectly rarely but that's not reliable enough to call that a survivability buff.

 

6 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

merms are better as brute force against the more powerful bosses when combined with their kiting, and are much more expendable since they respawn upon death.

Merms are more expendable but again their kitting doesn't meanfully boost their survivability in boss fights and their survivability in those fights don't even come close to spiders because they have infinite hp via a dps check and if a boss clears their dps check with panic attack that means merms will equally be shredded. Basically there's not enough situations where merm's power flex matters which kinda lowers the impact of their damage output.

11 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

This requires you to make the bunny houses in the location you need them. They wont work for daily combat, or more mobile boss fights.

This is true however...

12 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Setting them up at bee queen can be bad for multiplayer for Webber and Wortox players, or even any players since it is an invasive strategy. Bunnymen are good but merms are superior.

This depends on the situation as merms are just as hostile once a Wurt decides to slack off which is part of the reason I think the merm king might be better off being a permanent world upgrade rather than one to be maintained for the sake of teamplay.

14 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Also for merm's cost, you can still turn them into resources and food twice daily so they are a good investement once set up that do multiple things.

That's a minor payout available from various other followers.

16 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

And, i think Webber follower's should be better than merms in combat)

I'd be fine with this but the issue is spiders also beat merms in utility.

Spider nurses are a free infinite use healing items for the player

Spitters are a free infinite use range weapon even if unintentionally

Shattered spiders high movement speed make them a great hands-free light source with miner hats since you can remove hats at will by picking them up

The webby whistle gives a extreme degree of control over the actions of your spiders greatly minimizing mistakes 

Being able to carry spiders means they're usable between shards and can also serve as a emergency food source.

No loyalty upkeep

 

Spiders work more as a extension of Webber's character Merms are just stronger pigs and it feels weird when you consider the sheer amount of work Wurt puts in on her side of the fence compared to the other follower characters not just Webber.