What is considered a cheese?

[Frosty_Mentos]

Swiyss Cheese.

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

But it sounds like you just want a rework of dragonfly, because you DISLIKE the INTENDED solutions. I proved according to your own logic that walls and the panflute are not only not cheese, but intended solutions approved by the developers. but you still insist that they're "cream" solutions (as if they weren't just the "Correct and intended way" to fight the boss)

Yes, I want a Dfly rework. And I also don't like the "use the pan flute, skip the enraged phase entirely" thing.

The intended way to fight dragonfly in my opinion is to not use a pan flute to skip her enraged phase, but to kite and avoid flame damage at the same time IN her enraged phase.

Panflute is not a cheesy strat because of how it works imo, it doesn't skip the whole boss, you just use it once and skip a section of the fight, that's why I referred to it as creamy.

Walls and panflutes are not the intended way of killing dragonfly because they were not added FOR dragonfly, they are just there. They work as intended, but the fight does not require them, so it is not the intended way to fight. This is very easy to understand. Just because developers didn't nerf or excluded them, doesn't mean that it is indirectly intended, that is too much of a stretch.

The dragonfly fight could receive some additional rewards for fighting her while enraged, like scales dropping in that phase. Also a suggestion would be that the panflute could just put her to sleep while enraged (still maintaining enraged), then you would shoot her with an ice staff, removing her fire proximity damage, she would be immune to freeze in that phase and only a chilled amulet could freeze her. Then she would hit you after 3 hits rather than 6, and after you dodged 9 times, she would get the fire back one last time before going back to the calm phase. That way, the "panflute" would still be useful, but the ice staff too, so that the player can understand the fight better. Then, for players that still wanna skip the enraged fight, they would lose an additional scale each time she enrages. They would need to craft a chilled amulet. If enraged dfly attacks a player using a chilled amulet, the gem would break and she would freeze, to only then comeback to calm phase. Now locking her behind those magic items might be bad, so for starters, the strategy could be that fighting her in Winter season reduces her enraged time by half. Or maybe if you stun her with high damage, her next enraged part loses the proximity fire.

Now we have 2 scenarios, one where the player fights her legit and is rewarded for it, and another where the player interacts with her differently and skips the enraged phase.

This might remove creativity from the game, so maybe add different freezing options, each with its own interaction with her.

They can affect a lot of bosses that currently get cheesed this way, so it encourages people to fight the boss a certain way. "Encourages", not force them.

An update to make cheeses Official and interact more with bosses. The addition of easter eggs to skip some fights. That would actually add creativity, and make the game feel more ideal. I know that it would feel like the Author (klei) is in command of the Art, and we're just experiencing, but the illusion of choice is sometimes greater than actually make the player choose and be unsatisfied. The perception can mold reality. I really hope klei atleast consider parts of this thread from everyone that commented here.

2 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Your "Main point" wasn't this, that's just a lie. You mentioned this once, and more as a justification to your actual point

Your "Main point" that you keep harping on is this "levels of cheese" thing that  people who use perfectly viable and developer approved strategies while pretending like they're NOT in fact the intended solution to the problem. if the developer intended you to do it, it's very arguably not cheese at all. not "cream" cheese, not "milk" or whatever other term you made up, it's not cheese at all.

WALLS are intended to block larvae. ZERO cheese. none at all.

THE PANFLUTE IS INTENDED to stop enrage, it does it, there's no glitch involved, the dragonfly specifically reacts to being put to sleep. again, No cheese, even less arguable cheese than before.

if you want a harder fight, thats a separate discussion. if you want new ways to fight dragonfly, separate discussion altogether

I just think that :

Milky - is fighting a boss with the smallest amount of resources possible. Other resources might come in handy, like using bee queen crown or marble suits against bosses and healing with pierogies. Any strat that good old Wilson can pull off without farming anything too out of the box works. Anything that doesn't block or discourage the boss from using what it can.

Creamy - is fighting a boss with strategies and items that affect only the main "hard characteristics" of a fight. Like cancelling crab king geyzer cast, cancelling dfly enraged phase, blocking klaus deers, blocking fuelweaver healing by destroying the shadow hands and skulls with weather pains etc.. for me these strategies are only legit if you're still learning the fights and have not mastered them completely, or wanna do it somewhat legit while still being a casual experience.

Cheesy - are strategies that affect almost the entirety of a boss. Like blocking space for toadstool to spawn trees. Blocking bee queen in place with moleworms and constantly freezing her. Blocking fuelweaver with lureplants. And other perma freezing techniques, like wolfgang's ice dumbbells against crab king.

As I said in my original post, this is not to say that someone who cheeses a boss is cheating, or someone who milks a boss is better than anyone, it is just for educational purposes.

If Lardee made a video detailing these, it would blow up and people would maybe adapt these concepts and terms. There is nothing wrong with it.

My biggest question is how can Klei fix these problems right here :

-The fact that some bosses loot are not that great, like misery toadstool and crab king.

-Bosses getting repetitive in the late game.

-Some fights having little engagement, like the dragonfly enraged phase being easily skipped, and doesn't interact with the player very well. And the fact that crab king have only 2 or 3 gem strategies, with the rest being almost impossible or just discouraged to try. AG and the 3 lunar bosses being just.. stunnable

And they would have to fix all of these while still maintaining creative approaches based on the level of difficulty you're currently at in the game. Without actually "choosing" a difficulty level when starting the game, aside from game settings. Also, Klei has to think about all kind of players, the ones who never killed a boss, the ones who can kite but are not familiar with the bosses attacks, the ones who are familiar with the bosses but still die to them from the lack of proficiency and mastery, and the ones who mastered everything from the boss. Rewarding the player accordingly. Doing this would be incredibly genius, since it would mean a new approach compared to games where you set the difficulty before hand. When I say DST has an insane potential, this is what I talk about.

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Great, we agree. then stop harping on "How much cheese" is involved in various strategies

But this is the whole point of my thread? For what reason would I not continue this quest for improvement? You can't simply state that.

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

be weird in your eyes, or odd, but it's accurate. you disliking it doesn't make it any less true.

My point is that the fight still can be done without cancelling her enraged phase, sure. But rather than me building in my head a reason do it, there is no motivation or interest in fighting her in her phase. Why on earth would they make a whole different phase, just for me to skip it. Why would Klei make 6 possible gems in the crab king fight, only for 2 to be used? This issue is occurred more often than not. I say they could possibly adress this one day, sometime.

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

is an entire design philosophy.

This is not an "update to the game" this is something you build the game from the ground up based on if you so desire.

More options? Great, fantastic, everyone would LOVE more options on how to fight bosses, what weapons we can have, literally everything.

 

but that is not possible for every single thing all at once.

Why?

 

there are only so many hours in a day, so much progress the developers can make on each individual thing each day.

honestly if they were to JUST rework dragonfly, with like one or two new ways to fight her, that would take a full month.

I'm not exaggerating to prove a point, i'm not trying to be funny, this is what I genuinely think the time table would be as an amateur developer + previous klei experience.

 

would I love a rework to every single boss? ABSOLUTELY. I am a BIG proponent of reworking old systems over constant updates bringing new stuff.

but to rework all bosses with new ways to fight the boss being a priority it's a multi year process if that's all they do.

 

And each update wouldn't really do what you're trying to do.

if you want things that actually change how people play from day to day? Bosses are not your target. it's stuff like farming or foraging for resources that you want to target.

change world gen up, or maybe even make new seasonal variations, dry spring, lots of lightning and wind but not much rain. a humid summer where you're constantly becoming more moist no matter how much rain proof gear you wear because your character is sweating. it helps with the heat but the humidity is its own threat, blizzardy winter, an autumn where there's a drought so ponds dry up and berry bushes don't sprout etc etc

There ARE things you can do to really shake up the game, but every update you focus on bosses only effects gameplay while fighting those bosses, which would be great, and honestly dragonfly needs some love.

 

buut there's other parts of the game that needs it more

Better late then never. I would wait 10 years if possible. No one's in a hurry.

 

3 hours ago, goatt said:

In my opinion, the word cheese is useless because it's being used to mean things in opposite categories.

For productive discussion, I prefer to use the word exploits.

 

Exploits have their life cycles through the life of DST. Typically, they go through several stages.

Stage 1: newly discovered. => unintended exploits

Stage 2: widely known. => unintended exploits

Stage 3: examined by Klei => marinated exploits

Stage 4: surviving => accepted exploits (fermentation process completed)

Stage 4*: removed

 

Accepted exploits are not threatening to the general game balance or game experience because they were good to stay. Instead, it gives (new) players a sense of joy from discovering (falsely) new strategies. But really, accepted exploits have been consciously accepted as a game mechanic.

Cheese feels nice because they are sort of community inspired design integrated into the game. Cheese, essentially, are not exploitive enough to be real cheese. All known cheese are working just as intended.

You can call it cheese as if they are something special, especially in practical sense. They were special. But they aren't anymore. Just like car was special (or luxurious) in history but not anymore.

The bottomline is, (known) "cheese" is a falsely glamorous description of a strategy. They are just strategies using a particular game mechanc.

But newly discovered exploits are always exciting, no matter how small it is.

But you just gave a perfect opportunity to separate the cheeses into categories. Jeez man, you were almost inside the cheese factory, just one step away.

[Fufuji]

Most of DST's boss battles are between awful and mediocre, they don't deserve a non-cheese strat.

I don't cheese because I RESPECT the boss design. But what if the boss just don't RESPECT me? If something is awfully designed, don't ever expect players treat it with respect, defeat it the way devs expect players to.

[Guille6785]

35 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Walls and panflutes are not the intended way of killing dragonfly because they were not added FOR dragonfly, they are just there. They work as intended, but the fight does not require them, so it is not the intended way to fight. This is very easy to understand. Just because developers didn't nerf or excluded them, doesn't mean that it is indirectly intended, that is too much of a stretch.

Lazy explorer and nightmare amulet are not the intended way of killing Fuelweaver because they were not added FOR Fuelweaver, they are just there. They work as intended, but the fight does not require them, so it is not the intended way to fight. This is very easy to understand. Just because developers didn't nerf or excluded them, doesn't mean that it is indirectly intended, that is too much of a stretch.

Edited March 1 by Guille6785

[Swiyss]

17 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

Lazy explorer and nightmare amulet are not the intended way of killing Fuelweaver because they were not added FOR Fuelweaver, they are just there. They work as intended, but the fight does not require them, so it is not the intended way to fight. This is very easy to understand. Just because developers didn't nerf or excluded them, doesn't mean that it is indirectly intended, that is too much of a stretch.

Sounds good to me.

But in this case, I think (might be wrong) that it is impossible to fight without it. Maybe you can bring bundled grim galette pie or mushrooms I guess and block the prison with the correct pathin.

[grm9]

4 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Walls and panflutes are not the intended way of killing dragonfly because they were not added FOR dragonfly, they are just there. They work as intended, but the fight does not require them, so it is not the intended way to fight. This is very easy to understand. Just because developers didn't nerf or excluded them, doesn't mean that it is indirectly intended, that is too much of a stretch

that means using fire staff/pen or torch/lighter against mutated deerclops is unintended cheese, are there any things that were added specifically for people to use them against a boss that got added in the same update and for nothing else? Could say that ham bat and football helms are cheese, since they got added before bosses iirc

Edited March 1 by grm9

[grm9]

13 hours ago, Swiyss said:

the intended way to reach the atrium is to either use a lazy explorer from mudland

atrium isn't always close enough for that to be possible

Edited March 1 by grm9

[FA_Chaod42]

I want to fight the crab King without cheese methods but how can I fight it if it's geysers causes the game to crash and firing the cannon causes it crash also. This is the PS4 version. The Crab King has 8 purple gems and 1 Pearl slotted in. 

 

When the geysers cause a boat to sink, the game crashes.