What is considered a cheese?

[Swiyss]

I searched for this discussion but some posts are either locked, too old or not addressing my concern here. Let's start.

The definition of the word "cheese". (Not mozzarella, parmegiano regiano or pecorino romano)(also gouda and brie if you like that (I prefer brie, especially in pizza) and is from france)(Swiss cheese is not as good as other cheeses I think but this is not the topic's intention)(I like cheddar on hamburgers, but blue cheese is also great on big patties(not small patties, smash burgers are better with cheddar(uk cheddar)))(screw that "creamy" white cheese ball on pizza, it just tastes like mozzarella but creamier (try drinking milk when you're very hungry, you'll taste cream, boom magic) and people seem to love it, super overrated yeah but it doesn't matter because this is not the point of this whole thread and I don't wanna keep talking about it (I guess now you know that I like cheese (both types, the IRL cheese and Cheese strats)))

My definition of a cheese would be "an unintended way of accomplishing the same goal (as opposed to the intended way) made it easier, casual, simpler, creamier and delicious. By use of in-game mechanics (excluding glitches and bugs as these are different from unintended features, and considered exploitation), strategies and/or a compiled mass off both". This is MY opinion and definition of the term, subject to change.

There are more than a hundred cheese strategies in the game and it would be impossible to list them all.

My reasons for this post.

I know how to play my game, but I wanna know how you play your game. And what do you think is legit.

Topic of discussion.

The intention of this post is to DEFINE once and for all what is the ACTUAL intended way to kill every single boss in the game regardless of the character you're using. This would feel like "limiting" choices from people, but I am in no way encouraging people to tell others what to do and what is right or wrong. My intention is to come to an agreement as to what is the Official way of dealing with certain aspects of the game. I don't want anyone telling no one how you should play the game. This is only for educational purposes.

Some other things.

Feel free to add other topics to the mix like "is ruins rushing actually efficient, intended and the correct way to survive and thrive in the game OR are there any other strategies that are 'better'?".

Most of these topics would get to a point where maybe we'll have 2 or even 3 sides being "correct". In conclusion, there might be more ways of playing the game. Either the most efficient, one focused on building, another focused on obtaining every item or even completing every side quest the game offers.

MY OPINION ABOUT IT. 

To achieve a consent between players I will first state my opinion about cheeses, bosses, strategies and gameplay progression. Please I want you to share yours, I'm interested to know your game plan.

I think that all cheese strategies that do not use glitches or bugs are really cool. They give an alternative way to accomplish the same reward, but differently. I am mostly talking about boss cheeses.

I myself use all possible cheeses in the game, but with a catch. I like to have the best experience possible when playing DST, so I do something I call "Standard DST Gameplay" in all my worlds. It consists of playing the game with only 1 character until I defeated every single possible giant in the game (even malbatross). I don't use any cheese, rollbacks or the celestial portal until I kill all bosses atleast once the intended way. I kill dragonfly without walls, fuelweaver without dmg buffs, crab king without bees, planar entities without planar damage etc. I do separate the twins tho and use any item available for me at that time, except in certain situations.

Because of this, the game takes way longer to "complete", and I usually don't focus on killing these bosses. The idea of defeating Klaus or going for fuelweaver simply pops in my head everytime I stagnate. At some point, I found myself farming every giant crop as wormwood, fishing for every fish, collecting every sapling and grass tuft, building my entire base and even mining every single boulder in the lunar island, surface and caves before even killing a single raid giant, it was day 650 when I fought dfly. The sensation of obtaining a boss drop after going through many years gives you motive to play the game.

Why I don't rush the game.

I found myself losing too much interest in the game whenever I did speedruns. They are frustrating and very hard, and most of the time you will be crying for a suspicious boulder to spawn on day 200 or lose the first full moon due to map rng. I once started the moonstorms at day 55, only to kill cc on day 195 because of rng.

Conclusion.

After completing the game. I usually play my favorite characters and then focus on megabasing. Killing every boss with cheeses and easy strategies. I also don't rollback or change settings. My only settings are winter feast always and Huge World size.

I think that if you went through the hard way of beating the game, cheesing feels nice, because you already accomplished everything. It doesn't feel bad to cheese later if I didn't cheese earlier.

My boss order is usually Deerclops >> Moose/Goose >> Antlion >> Bearger >> Eye of Terror >> Klaus >> Bee queen >> Dragonfly >> Toadstool >> Ancient Guardian >> Nightmare Werepig >> Shadow pieces >> Ancient Fuelweaver >> Ink Blights >> Twins of Terror >> Malbatross >> Sharkboi >> Crab King >> Celestial Champion >> 3 lunar bosses.

Because of the way I play, cheeses feel nice.

Edited February 29 by Swiyss

[Cheggf]

You're gonna get a lot of different answers for this one, there isn't one agreed upon thing. So I'm gonna go above and beyond the call of duty and say that cheese is what feels like cheese, there is no strict definition. Catapults are entirely intended, but plop enough down and they're doing everything for you. That feels like cheese. 

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

You're gonna get a lot of different answers for this one, there isn't one agreed upon thing. So I'm gonna go above and beyond the call of duty and say that cheese is what feels like cheese, there is no strict definition. Catapults are entirely intended, but plop enough down and they're doing everything for you. That feels like cheese. 

Interesting, because the only reason why something would be considered a cheese is when it makes it too easy compared to the original way of doing it.

It seems that if the problem is that it makes the game easier (responding to "cheese is wrong" argument), then my strategy bypasses this problem.

[Cheggf]

Just now, Swiyss said:

Interesting, because the only reason why something would be considered a cheese is when it makes it too easy compared to the original way of doing it.

It seems that if the problem is that it makes the game easier (responding to "cheese is wrong" argument), then my strategy bypasses this problem.

The only issue there is with cheese is that it bypasses more engaging and possibly fun ways of doing something. If you like that system you've got set up you do you, but if you've already done the fights other ways and simply prefer the cheese knowing what the other ways have in store I see no drawbacks to using cheese. 

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

The only issue there is with cheese is that it bypasses more engaging and possibly fun ways of doing something. If you like that system you've got set up you do you, but if you've already done the fights other ways and simply prefer the cheese knowing what the other ways have in store I see no drawbacks to using cheese. 

Also, sometimes cheesing gets boring, so I just change to Wes or Wendy and kill dfly with a hambat while trying to do 7 hits everytime.

THAT is fun for me.

[user1464576869]

Cheese strats are only really implemented to make things easier but I don't reckon difficulty is in any way a measurement of whether or not something is a cheese or not.

The basic answer is intended gameplay. And y'know, if the developers don't say anything that's kind of a interpretation question. Which is why as Cheggf says we're gonna get a lot of different answers.

Mega tangent, but this is funny to me since it reminds me of the old age question within Art discussions and 'Death of the Author' talk. I'm sure a consumer of games (art) can have their own interpretation of what is and isn't cheese and it be a majority vote over the authors themselves view of their own creation.

Like, even the discourse whether or not fun is the determiner is also a question of interpretation on intent of the product, is it not? Is the game supposed to be fun at all times or does the medium seek to invoke other feelings in the consumer, like being challenged, frightened, etc. While we all seek fun itself I assume, some will find these 'other goals' fun to face.

EDIT: In any case, as a futile attempt to circulate back to your question with a slightly more straightforward answer as an individual opinion; It literally depends on every situation there is. I don't think I could set a standard rule and apply it across every scenario because I'm sure some cheese strats inexplicitly feels wrong when in a different context.

Edited February 29 by user1464576869

[_zwb]

Everything and nothing

[Riddla]

Personally, "cheese" for me means "exploiting". Taking advantage of some code oversight that can completely twist difficulty into something laughably trivial, basically.

If you're using 40 catapults or 200 blowdarts to decimate something, that's whatever, you do what you gotta do to survive, and you naturally gathered resources to do things like that.
But if you abuse some sort of obscure bug, like tricky shwicky AI shenanigans which makes the enemy unable to see you/attack you or blablabla that allows you to kill it for free, then that's "cheese" to me.

[Ryusuta]

There was a video I watched awhile ago about an early-game method for defeating Dragonfly. Originally, the video poster said that it was a no-cheese method, but a couple of people complained in the comments, saying that the video creator put up stone walls to prevent the Lavae from escaping.

Which got me to wondering about this topic, because last I checked, the entire point of walls was to prevent something from going from one place to another. It seems utterly baffling to me that the people complaining thought that using a structure for its express purpose was somehow cheese.

To me, "cheese" is when you find an unintended solution to circumvent/bypass a problem entirely.

So, using Gunpowder on a sleeping boss? NOT cheese. Gunpowder is created with the express purpose of blowing things up, presumably to do damage. Using Bees to fight the Crab King? DEFINITELY cheese, because Crab King wasn't meant to be fought using that tool. You effectively negate the fight entirely using a method the development team likely didn't intend.

For the record, though. I don't think cheese is necessarily a bad thing anyway. Like, in my example with the Crab King, there is incredibly good justification for cheesing the boss, because fighting it the normal way is needlessly risky and a large number of people don't find it to be enjoyable.

Anyway, my two cents. This was the video, by the way:

 

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

I searched for this discussion but some posts are either locked, too old or not addressing my concern here. Let's start.

The definition of the word "cheese". 

My definition of a cheese would be "an unintended way of accomplishing the same goal (as opposed to the intended way) made it easier, casual, simpler, creamier and delicious. By use of in-game mechanics (excluding glitches and bugs as these are different from unintended features, and considered exploitation), strategies and/or a compiled mass off both". This is MY opinion and definition of the term, subject to change.

I think before we define cheese - we need to admit a crucial fact.  For most of DST there is no explicit "intended way."  I feel Klei did a lot in early DS/T development to specifically not give any clear direction on how to do anything.  The game is made to be a creative experience with elements of puzzle solving satisfaction as much as combat thrills.  Thinking that any method that does not abuse glitches is "unintended" because you do not approve, or its not the combat purist way, is nothing more then your own ego.

Its important to get that out of the way first because what Cheese is, and what is or isn't intended have little to do with each other.  We can cheese with glitches in clear unintended fashion, and we can cheese with certain thing in a way that is clearly intended because that is how the game works, and if Klei wanted it to work differently at this point, 8+ years of some of these interactions existing in the game, they'd have changed it like they did Klaus' Sack.

Walls for dfly is 100% intended - because the functions of walls are that mobs can either 1) aggro on them, 2) path around them, 3) crush through them.  Lavae were given an AI with target priority on players, so they will not switch aggro to walls.  Since they can't aggro them, and can't crush them, they path around them.  While you might get annoyed that some rando online uses a wall in their private server you never play on, and while you may be smug in your "I fight Dfly without walls" try-harding nonsense here, the interaction between Lavae's AI and walls is 100% exactly as it is coded to work.  This is as-intended as using ice staves to freeze Crab King's geyser spell.

Is it cheese?  Absolutely the wall strat is cheese.  What is a cheese strat?  Its a method or setup that significantly minimizes your interactions with the game.

Glitches / bug exploits are different.  An exploit is something that is not intended.  Because they are not intended interactions we can judge exploit strats a bit differently.  It's Klei's job to patch their game, so it's fair for players to use these but many prefer to not engage in exploits.  Its okay to point out a strat is a bug exploit if it actually is one, and that it is an unintended interaction.  That doesn't mean people won't use them if they want, and can't have an interest in them.  Void walking is an exploit.  There are uses for it, and it doesn't cause much instability, but it is clearly an exploit and not an intended feature of the game.

People can and should enjoy the game at their skill level and in line with their interests.  Players like you obviously prefer to tackle the game as a combat adventure first, and that is fine.  Others might prefer to approach it as a puzzle, or a speed run, or might just enjoy having fun with bugs and glitches in games.  Those play styles are all valid too, regardless of what some forumers want to try and DEFINE once and for all what is the ACTUAL intended way to blah blah blah.

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

Why I don't rush the game.

I found myself losing too much interest in the game whenever I did speedruns. They are frustrating and very hard, and most of the time you will be crying for a suspicious boulder to spawn on day 200 or lose the first full moon due to map rng. I once started the moonstorms at day 55, only to kill cc on day 195 because of rng.

I think its good to look at how we play the game, and how we want to experience it, and to align those two together.  If someone is saying "these bosses are all too easy" but are doing things like building wall for dfly, bees for crab king, etc then they should definitely drop the cheese strats and start working through the challenging interactions in other, more engaging ways.  Likewise if someone is always coming onto the forum talking about how "these bosses are too hard" and "have too high health," and are "clearly designed for multiplayer only and I'm just a solo guy" they really should consider applying some cheese strats to lessen the interactions they're suffering through to a more tolerable level so they can achieve some progress in the game.  There are a lot of things to learn in this game, and there is nothing wrong with using cheese to reduce tasks to something you can accomplish, and then work the other way removing or reducing cheese as your skill improves.

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

My boss order is usually Deerclops >> Moose/Goose >> Antlion >> Bearger >> Eye of Terror >> Klaus >> Bee queen >> Dragonfly >> Toadstool >> Ancient Guardian >> Nightmare Werepig >> Shadow pieces >> Ancient Fuelweaver >> Ink Blights >> Twins of Terror >> Malbatross >> Sharkboi >> Crab King >> Celestial Champion >> 3 lunar bosses.

Probably something like AG > NMWP > BQueen > Twin Terror > Deerclops > Shadow Pieces > MGoose > Ant Lion > AFW > Shadow Trio > CK > CC > Bearger > Zombear > Zomvarg > Zomclops 

I feel like I only get a challenge when I play the game as a rush.  If I don't rush it then I can approach every fight with tons of weapons, armor, healing, sanity, resurrections, etc and just win by sheer over preparedness.  By rushing through tasks to accomplish certain goals as quick as possible I'm continually tasked with finding more efficient methods, and doing more with less.  For me this is a more enjoyable way to play the game because it gives little down time to get bored, and has me consider which tools I go after and in which order to have the best chance of succeeding.  I also don't use any res or roll backs, at least until both rifts are open - mostly b/c at that point there just isn't enough interesting stuff to do so I get aimless, do random stuff, get bored, burn the world down and start over.

Edited February 29 by Yuuko

[Swiyss]

41 minutes ago, user1464576869 said:

Cheese strats are only really implemented to make things easier but I don't reckon difficulty is in any way a measurement of whether or not something is a cheese or not.

The basic answer is intended gameplay. And y'know, if the developers don't say anything that's kind of a interpretation question. Which is why as Cheggf says we're gonna get a lot of different answers.

I disagree. It might not be the pillar to it, but it certainly has a major impact on player experience. It sure influences the creation and development of these cheese features themselves.

45 minutes ago, user1464576869 said:

Mega tangent, but this is funny to me since it reminds me of the old age question within Art discussions and 'Death of the Author' talk. I'm sure a consumer of games (art) can have their own interpretation of what is and isn't cheese and it be a majority vote over the authors themselves view of their own creation.

Like, even the discourse whether or not fun is the determiner is also a question of interpretation on intent of the product, is it not? Is the game supposed to be fun at all times or does the medium seek to invoke other feelings in the consumer, like being challenged, frightened, etc. While we all seek fun itself I assume, some will find these 'other goals' fun to face

Like myself.

And to add up to your reply about "Death of the author", it seems to me that these intended ways to play bosses all fall into different categories of experiences. Many many things, from music choice, to the rewards you'll get. Essentially the importance of the fight is what makes making these fights "cheesier" resemble an unintended way of completing it, destroying a piece like this for the sake of a quick felling I guess? It is indeed a tragedy.

My interpretation of gameplay and the way I used to bypass it is somewhat great. Furthermore, by one author saying what it wants without directly saying what it wants, they're also participating in it. The fingerprint of the author is clear. My vision regarding MOST fights is based of all of these external factors. That is what makes a good game.

However, as weirdly as I can sound, I disagree with the "cheese" itself being limited to fun, but a broad spectrum of emotions. Or the piece of duel itself acquiring an "interpretation" factor. Because.. honestly speaking, all of these emotions are already set, regardless of player interaction with it or not. This interpretation can't go this further.

Spring work OST is somewhat something to be interpreted by the player, as long as you're doing what you yourself planned to do. But fight for spring OST is another story. One could mute the game, still by cheesing it would see the action. Rain, cold winds, thunder, nature at it's peak, animal instincts etc..

So in conclusion, even if one could see fun where there isn't, or be filled with joy when pain is the major feeling, the author still in this case has the bigger impact, thankfully in my view.

[grm9]

cheeses are strats that people don't like 

Edited February 29 by grm9

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, user1464576869 said:

EDIT: In any case, as a futile attempt to circulate back to your question with a slightly more straightforward answer as an individual opinion; It literally depends on every situation there is. I don't think I could set a standard rule and apply it across every scenario because I'm sure some cheese strats inexplicitly feels wrong when in a different context

Alright. Yes, but..

To summarize my idea is to tell a story. A being so flushed off and scraped off by this world, so so done with the constant feeling of pain, dragged into it without question, ready to feel what this world has to offer.

They venture down a cave to find the guardian.

How could one.. in the dark, with a spear, against a monster triple their size, with inexplicable shaking earthquakes acquire any sense of accomplishment by jumping across this fence of feelings. 

How could one sit down and enjoy the view in a situation like this, only a mad man.

Now back to it. In a regular game sense, it is absolutely wrong, but only at the wrong time.

For fuelweaver cheese is the same idea, thematically it is not wrong, simply uncanny. As for gameplay, it is simply not wrong, but sense less. As for progress it is wrong, because everything has its own cycle, its own moment.

It fits the game's soul to cheese, doesn't it? How fun it is to suffer.

[Ryusuta]

(I feel I might have misunderstood the point of the person I was responding so, so withdrawing this post.)

Edited February 29 by Ryusuta

[Swiyss]

22 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

Using Bees to fight the Crab King? DEFINITELY cheese, because Crab King wasn't meant to be fought using that tool. You effectively negate the fight entirely using a method the development team likely didn't intend

I cannot disagree more. Some may say it is cheese, for me it is only a smart option to it, the item itself does what it's intended to do. You contradicted yourself when you first said that walls and gunpowder are fulfilling their goals, however that is not the "intended" way to fight dragonfly. You then went to completely ignore bee mines being in the weapon category. It does what it does, even if the duel wasn't meant to be fought like that.

The real question is, is it for the boss to conquer the process, or for the weapon? Who is actually winning here? What is the player accomplishing here?

[Ryusuta]

1 minute ago, Swiyss said:

I cannot disagree more. Some may say it is cheese, for me it is only a smart option to it, the item itself does what it's intended to do. You contradicted yourself when you first said that walls and gunpowder are fulfilling their goals, however that is not the "intended" way to fight dragonfly. You then went to completely ignore bee mines being in the weapon category. It does what it does, even if the duel wasn't meant to be fought like that.

The real question is, is it for the boss to conquer the process, or for the weapon? Who is actually winning here? What is the player accomplishing here?

I'll grant you that one. I didn't consider Bee Mines. That being the case, I can definitely be convinced of Bee Strats not being cheese if someone made a case for it.

[Swiyss]

28 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

For the record, though. I don't think cheese is necessarily a bad thing anyway. Like, in my example with the Crab King, there is incredibly good justification for cheesing the boss, because fighting it the normal way is needlessly risky and a large number of people don't find it to be enjoyable

The joy is in conquering, not ending it, not completing it. The fight is for the survivor to survive. Is for the player to find a way around it, and eventually face it.

[Ryusuta]

Just now, Swiyss said:

The joy is in conquering, not ending it, not completing it. The fight is for the survivor to survive. Is for the player to find a way around it, and eventually face it.

I completely agree. If you solved the problem and overcame it, then that's what you did. Whether you "cheesed" it or not. I have no qualms with cheesing a boss. Especially in a game like this, where as Yuuko said, there is no one singular "intended" way of doing something.

Thinking about it, it kinda makes the idea of what is or isn't cheese kind of pointless...

Eh. Still fun to talk about for the hell of it.

[Yuuko]

14 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

That's ridiculous. Where would you even draw the line, then? Building a wall at any point, ever, for any reason? You build walls to prevent enemies from attacking you. (Or for decoration, of course, but that's something different.)

Yes, ultimately it becomes ridiculous to try and label things as "cheese," or at least to make some bad word of it.  What is a "significantly minimized interaction" may be different in opinion from one player to another.  So really, there is no merit in pointing fingers saying "this is cheese so it is bad."

If we don't consider cheese as bad, and simply take it as strategies that help by significantly minimizing interactions aka acting as a way of adjusting difficulty without needing to change settings, then we can appreciate that wall cheese is cheese.  Its great too!  It lets a player who is newer at the game approach a tough boss and find a way through it.  As they improve they can always learn ways to do it without the wall if they want.  The only real problem is when people try to codify what is good or bad, legit vs cheese.  Just enjoy the variety of the game, play how you want, and don't worry what someone else is doing.

That isn't to say game balance can't be a concern, just that we shouldn't get too worked up over someone building some walls, or unleashing some bees.

Edited February 29 by Yuuko

[Ryusuta]

Just now, Yuuko said:

Yes, ultimately it becomes ridiculous to try and label things as "cheese," or at least to make some bad word of it.  What is a "significantly minimized interaction" may be different in opinion from one player to another.  So really, there is no merit in pointing fingers saying "this is cheese so it is bad."

But if we don't consider cheese as bad, and simple take it as strategies that help by significantly minimizing interactions aka acting as a way of adjusting difficulty without needing to change settings, then we can appreciate that wall cheese is cheese.  Its great too!  It lets a player who is newer at the game approach a tough boss and find a way through it.  As they improve they can always learn ways to do it without the wall if they want.  The only real problem is when people try to codify what is good or bad, legit vs cheese.  Just enjoy the variety of the game, play how you want, and don't worry what someone else is doing.

That isn't to say game balance can't be a concern, just that we shouldn't get too worked up over someone building some walls, or unleashing some bees.

You're right. I feel I misunderstood the intent of your original post. Objection withdrawn.

[Swiyss]

31 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

think before we define cheese - we need to admit a crucial fact.  For most of DST there is no explicit "intended way."  I feel Klei did a lot in early DS/T development to specifically not give any clear direction on how to do anything.  The game is made to be a creative experience with elements of puzzle solving satisfaction as much as combat thrills.  Thinking that any method that does not abuse glitches is "unintended" because you do not approve, or its not the combat purist way, is nothing more then your own ego

Taking the Dragonfly out of my way for a bit. How could one say dodging the Guardian like a bull into a pillar wall is not the "intended" way of fighting it? How could the premise of your quote be blindly stated between a bigger vision of the fights themselves and a broad view of little encounters like these?

Is it up to me to puzzle my way out of this situation with complex rational thinking to somewhat use my arsenal of insanely outdated weapons? For a premise sure, for I presume your idea is great, however I don't think it really works like that in practice.

I saw some saying the old version of the guy was better, getting closer to agreeing by each day.

39 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Those play styles are all valid too, regardless of what some forumers want to try and DEFINE once and for all what is the ACTUAL intended way to blah blah blah.

I can state here the intended ways, as before in my posts, there is set a scene of the Author being the king here, and the Readers being susceptible to adapt or change it. For instance I prefer this approach to explain intended and unintended precautions taken when preparing for these fights.

You are indeed fighting Dragonfly the Unintended way by walling off lavae, however you're utilizing walls the intended way in this scenario. So which one is to take into account if the Author in question portrayed both?

I say this is the actual beauty of it, to EXPERIENCE both worlds. That is why fighting her twice in both scenarios is my flawless attempt to enjoy myself a cup of don't starve together.

47 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

I think its good to look at how we play the game, and how we want to experience it, and to align those two together.  If someone is saying "these bosses are all too easy" but are doing things like building wall for dfly, bees for crab king, etc then they should definitely drop the cheese strats and start working through the challenging interactions in other, more engaging ways.  Likewise if someone is always coming onto the forum talking about how "these bosses are too hard" and "have too high health," and are "clearly designed for multiplayer only and I'm just a solo guy" they really should consider applying some cheese strats to lessen the interactions they're suffering through to a more tolerable level so they can achieve some progress in the game.  There are a lot of things to learn in this game, and there is nothing wrong with using cheese to reduce tasks to something you can accomplish, and then work the other way removing or reducing cheese as your skill improves.

Surely there is nothing wrong with it. But I fear that a person like that (we all know who you're talking about) may be limited to their own perception of things. And to that I can only pray others don't fall into this victim trap.

A cheese is a cheese, but wether this cheese is cheesing us it is for us to eat it or not. Why are these puzzle ways you mentioned it not applicable in every Duel situation? THEN it turns into a Klei problem. How could I express myself fully if not by cheesing a boss?

Even though we experience it differently, doesn't mean that some intended way of interning things is nonexistent. It is to limit my view to not take this in consideration. It is a game, the question is way beyond rather it is done this or that way. Is not only for us, but for all. And for all to collectively agree upon a topic is to believe this end product exists. And I do believe it exists.

59 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Probably something like AG > NMWP > BQueen > Twin Terror > Deerclops > Shadow Pieces > MGoose > Ant Lion > AFW > Shadow Trio > CK > CC > Bearger > Zombear > Zomvarg > Zomclops 

I feel like I only get a challenge when I play the game as a rush.  If I don't rush it then I can approach every fight with tons of weapons, armor, healing, sanity, resurrections, etc and just win by sheer over preparedness.  By rushing through tasks to accomplish certain goals as quick as possible I'm continually tasked with finding more efficient methods, and doing more with less.  For me this is a more enjoyable way to play the game because it gives little down time to get bored, and has me consider which tools I go after and in which order to have the best chance of succeeding.  I also don't use any res or roll backs, at least until both rifts are open - mostly b/c at that point there just isn't enough interesting stuff to do so I get aimless, do random stuff, get bored, burn the world down and start over

Very interesting because for once I was like you. I like that, I enjoy that. It is a rush, a run, adapting and overcoming with quick thinking using my human behaviour and abilities to think of a solution on the spot, only to be separated by my sheer knowledge on the field. My confidence builds up in it, indeed if feels amazing.

Frustrate those who (like me) are simply too invested to bother. Simply too annoyed by the circumstances. I did grew up like that, so maybe that is why you are you and I am I.

Still I think you and more people can elaborate further until we get to that perfect point. As I said, there might be 2, 3 or even 4 conclusions. MIGHT, as I said. Still is too early to say anything I think.

Thank you for commenting.

Also, the "author" I was referring was KLEI, not to be confused by me.

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

Taking the Dragonfly out of my way for a bit. How could one say dodging the Guardian like a bull into a pillar wall is not the "intended" way of fighting it? How could the premise of your quote be blindly stated between a bigger vision of the fights themselves and a broad view of little encounters like these?

Is it up to me to puzzle my way out of this situation with complex rational thinking to somewhat use my arsenal of insanely outdated weapons? For a premise sure, for I presume your idea is great, however I don't think it really works like that in practice.

I saw some saying the old version of the guy was better, getting closer to agreeing by each day.

tbh - the rework of AG is the beginning of the end for DS/T.  From that point on we get too many scripted boss fights where there is a very obvious and specific "way" you are supposed to fight them, with anti-cheese interactions to prevent you from doing anything creative or interesting at all.  I have struggled to find the joy in each iteration of this trash template since.  With AG it was unique, and fitting for the columns in his arena.  NMWP it was still a bit interesting...  but by the time we got zombosses I was already DONE with this "dodge then get stun and hold F for 5 seconds" pattern.  The problem is only exacerbated via planar damage type nerfing any non-combat approaches, and unapproved equipment sets.

This is the same problem that Uncompromising mod has with bosses.  They get soo deep in trying to make this one specific "hard" way to fight the boss, and put in many ways to counter "cheese" that the experience becomes entirely too repetitive and I lose interest rapidly.  I would not play 3000 hours if every boss was like the zombosses.  I'd probably have capped out around 100 hours like other games that lack variety on replay.

Edited February 29 by Yuuko

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, Ryusuta said:

That's ridiculous. Where would you even draw the line, then? Building a wall at any point, ever, for any reason? You build walls to prevent something from escaping/entering an area. (Or for decoration, of course, but that's something different.)

Do you consider Tooth Traps cheesing hound attacks? It's minimizing your interactions with them. Are hound attacks only considered uncheesed if you fight every single one of them, weapon in hand?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, here. If we classify literally anything that makes things easier by removing a direct interaction with the problem, then literally everything other than melee fighting every boss is cheese. It basically has no meaning at that point.

Pan Flute? Cheese. Ice Rod? Cheese. Blow Darts? Cheese. Gunpowder? Cheese.

Putting on 5 Marble Suits and Football Helmets, then holding F until a boss is dead? Totally not cheese.

It's asinine.

 

58 minutes ago, Ryusuta said:

I completely agree. If you solved the problem and overcame it, then that's what you did. Whether you "cheesed" it or not. I have no qualms with cheesing a boss. Especially in a game like this, where as Yuuko said, there is no one singular "intended" way of doing something.

Thinking about it, it kinda makes the idea of what is or isn't cheese kind of pointless...

Eh. Still fun to talk about for the hell of it.

 

54 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Yes, ultimately it becomes ridiculous to try and label things as "cheese," or at least to make some bad word of it.  What is a "significantly minimized interaction" may be different in opinion from one player to another.  So really, there is no merit in pointing fingers saying "this is cheese so it is bad."

But if we don't consider cheese as bad, and simple take it as strategies that help by significantly minimizing interactions aka acting as a way of adjusting difficulty without needing to change settings, then we can appreciate that wall cheese is cheese.  Its great too!  It lets a player who is newer at the game approach a tough boss and find a way through it.  As they improve they can always learn ways to do it without the wall if they want.  The only real problem is when people try to codify what is good or bad, legit vs cheese.  Just enjoy the variety of the game, play how you want, and don't worry what someone else is doing.

That isn't to say game balance can't be a concern, just that we shouldn't get too worked up over someone building some walls, or unleashing some bees.

I feel as here, we have a clear boss vs subordinate situation, pillar vs ceiling.

Klei sets the scene, for they to show us what is possible and what is not. It is then for us to judge and act upon it. The game can't be played by itself, but we can't decide which path to go without the arsenal of things presented.

In this case, we need to act upon it the most efficient way. To then take in consideration as I previously mentioned, that all spectrum be unleashed upon us, for then us to decide how to react to that.

Here we have various extreme, and I feel like we can probably pin point them? Idk.

*The speedrunner. 

A player whose focus is to adapt and overcome, to experience the game in a rush, to accomplish a goal as fast as humanly possible, to conquer in speed and efficiency. To use all of human's instincts of quick thinking, rational thinking and knowledge in their repertoire.

*The architect

Exactly the opposite. To conquer slowly, this resembles more a chess player. The way of the wind, to come and go. They focus on each punch doing the maximum damage possible, every experience to be experienced in a niche calm way.

Might break my brain doing this, but to speedrun while chilling, is to elevate your knowledge even beyond. It is to be stoic about this game's situation. It is to not only progress beyond cheesing, but beyond even rational thinking. It is to breath options from the wind, and to spew quick segments of fire at perfect accuracy, momentum and strength.

For the record I'll start like this; It is to neither conclude the moon event by day 11, nor completely clean the ruins by day 20. Rather a mix of situations. For the celestial orb can drop at any time, we won't plan behind sadistic behaviour or rng based, but collected knowledge used in the right areas.

I say a tier 2 science based ruins rush. Hambat, football helmet, as for character choice, any has to matter. Goal is to come back with the most amount of resources possible before day 15 and kill AG and Nightmare Werepig. I say activating winters feast for gift wraps is a good idea. Kill dragonfly, bee queen, and enter winter. Then to kill klaus and deerclops. To then focus on exploring the map completely, using a beefalo, and taking the opportunity for the second new moon to kill the shadow pieces as @Yuuko does. however, it is not here a moment to kill fuelweaver, but to take things slower now. We enter the summer soon, so finding the oasis and killing antlion is our goal. Not before doing the moon stone event. Our goal is to kill every boss before cc and fuelweaver. Setting the scene for them is rather more important and may be more enjoyable. With every boss killed (misery, malbatross, literally every one), we enter a mid game stage, this is when we prepare the ground for rifts, caves and surface.

Perfect opportunity to take the game slower, after a full rush early. The best place to base is a central area or a far away biome with a good wormhole. Farming is the goal. Maybe some focus in megabasing and decorations, everything well thought for brigtshades to come and earthquake boulders. Clear spider dens, trap bearger. Farm trees, food, sustainable resources and more. I think that planning where to place ice crystaleyezers is a great option. One for each biome, in a corner, placing every single unique resource of that biome in that small area, decorated based by biome, built with hexagonal pattern farms of each type. 5 dfly furnaces station in each biome.

After all you want to do in the game is complete, it is time for late game bosses and rifts. Now we set the stage for the "next" level. Portal is now available, bigger farms everywhere, megabasing starts to conquer every part of the world, cave bases and biomes reimagined all over. Perfect setup for ruins clearing and reset.

That for me is a great game plan. Could be even better with friends. Now cheesing wouldn't feel like cheating, atleast for me.

I might just be a stupid perfectionist and arrogant folk but w/e.

Please add more in depth game plans and views to the thread.

[grm9]

3 hours ago, Swiyss said:

I once started the moonstorms at day 55, only to kill cc on day 195 because of rng

no one likes celestial orb RNG and devs promised a few years ago to remove it

3 hours ago, Swiyss said:

lose the first full moon due to map rng

i've had times when i still had enough time to do moonstone event after killing AG and werepig, are you not using beefalo or are you also trying to kill them every time before full moon regardless of how much time you have left until then?

Edited February 29 by grm9

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

no one likes celestial orb RNG and devs promised a few years ago to remove it at some point

i've had times when i still had enough time to do moonstone event after killing AG and werepig, are you not using beefalo or are you trying to do those 2 before moonstone every time regardless of how much time you have left until full moon?

I just didn't practice it enough, I got close to doing it everytime, but then went too many worlds missing it. My problem was surface map recognition really, kinda fixed that but quit speedrunning then. I basically quit right after that topic I did about the celestial orb. Turned into a more slow paced player.