Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed?

[grm9]

23 minutes ago, goatt said:

1. You shouldn't bring extra slot mod to the discussion, it's completely unrelated because it's not a bug

the point was that people using bugs and talking about how they play the game isn't much different in comparison to people using mods and changed world settings and talking about how they play the game

23 minutes ago, goatt said:

2. Are we still talking about negative effects? I showed you the negative effects, and you say "it's fine". That's kinda lame argument

because most of those are issues with how people think about bugs that could be changed by people, well, thinking about them differently and wouldn't affect how much they enjoy the game and for how long, since they're hardly related to how they play the game

23 minutes ago, goatt said:

3. Players' perception is their subjective opinions. They don't need clear definition of "balance", "bug", "features", etc. They are just opinions. However, subjective opinions do influence game experience. And other commenters' opinions will influcence readers' perceptions too. Talking about "definition" is missing the point

by definition i meant what does it mean at least in the opinion of whoever is talking about it

23 minutes ago, goatt said:

1. You shouldn't bring extra slot mod to the discussion, it's completely unrelated because it's not a bug.

2. Are we still talking about negative effects? I showed you the negative effects, and you say "it's fine". That's kinda lame argument.

3. Players' perception is their subjective opinions. They don't need clear definition of "balance", "bug", "features", etc. They are just opinions. However, subjective opinions do influence game experience. And other commenters' opinions will influcence readers' perceptions too. Talking about "definition" is missing the point.

 

The main point here, which you haven't addressed, is this: You try to make this bug a feature. But you don't seem to have enough people on your side. Most people still see it as a bug

i don't need it to be a feature as long as it's in the game, just not removing it as long as it isn't causing any issues that are bigger than having to ask others to not use it in a competition or something for other people that play the game is fine

18 minutes ago, Evelo said:

When people ask "Why does so and so do this thing?" And an answer is given typically the response is "Oh, okay." since the knowledge has been gained. It is not an argumentative question. It is a question based on gaining understanding.

For example, Ashton asks, "Why does Sam avoid highways? It is much faster to get to work." Sam can respond, "I am terrified of driving on the highway. I prefer to take in town roads even if it takes longer." Ashton asked a question and got the answer. Sure Ashton may disagree but the understanding of why Sam does the specific action (avoid highways) has been explained.

Tying this into our example the question, "Why do people want things that don't impact them and that they can easily avoid to be changed?" The answer, in response to specifically voidwalking, "Because it is not the intended design of the void" is sufficient enough of an answer. There is no need to refute as a question has been asked and an answer given. You can dislike with the answer but that does not mean the answer is wrong. The only acceptable outcome is to acknowledge the answer as the answer for that specific individual (or group of individuals) is correct in their perception of the world.

If you are attempting to convince people of your viewpoint it is best to structure the initial question differently to procure appropriate discussion rather than a one sided question. This is why in general it is better to avoid "why" question because they can be answered simply without any follow up. (Unless of course the follow up is to further gain knowledge, example: Why do you walk up the stairs so slow? Because I got a knee replacement. Why did you get a knee replacement? Because my knee was heavily damaged after years of wear and tear and needed to be fixed."

the point was to convince people that there's no need to try to force the devs to remove things like that and i started the thread with a question because i didn't know what were people's reasons to do that except the reasons that were mentioned in the 1st post, it would've been more vague and people wouldn't know what were they supposed to talk in the thread and what still wasn't solved in the discussion if i would've named it something like "discussion about bug and strat removal and nerfing"

[_zwb]

Why shouldn't I ask the developers to remove something I don't like, just because it doesn't affect me?

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Why shouldn't I ask the developers to remove something I don't like, just because it doesn't affect me?

Because you'll get nothing from it getting removed?

[_zwb]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

Because you'll get nothing from it getting removed?

Why can't I ask for something that has not effect on me?

[grm9]

Just now, _zwb said:

Why can't I ask for something that has not effect on me?

why would you?

[_zwb]

1 minute ago, grm9 said:

why would you?

Because I want to, and no rules are stopping me.

You didn't answer why I shouldn't do it.

[grm9]

Just now, _zwb said:

You didn't answer why I shouldn't do it

because it would affect some people negatively without affecting anyone positively

[goatt]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

the point was that people using bugs and talking about how they play the game isn't much different in comparison to people using mods and changed world settings and talking about how they play the game

So, you are saying, using bugs and using mods aren't much different. I disagree.

But if you really think so, it shouldn't be much different if you made this bug into a mod, because bug and mod aren't much different.

 

To me who think they are very different, it's good that the bug gets patched.

To you who think they aren't so different, patching it and replacing it with a mod won't make a difference for you.

That's a win win.

[Primalflower]

On 2/22/2024 at 4:30 AM, Cheggf said:

To say "Why change it? You can just not do it." is disingenuous, and can apply to literally everything. Why not make it so that being at 0 hunger and 0 temperature doesn't do anything, and you just pretend like you need to manage your hunger and temperature? Why not make it so that being at 0 health doesn't kill you, and you can just walk over to a touch stone and pretend like you needed to revive? Why not make it so that everything dies in a single hit to a weapon and takes no damage from nonweapons so if you want to actually fight things you just keep punching them until you feel like they deserve to die then you hit them with a weapon once? Would that be fun, inventing game mechanics and pretending like they exist?

None of what you describe is a comparable situation to something like void walking, because void walking is something that you functionally cannot stumble into unless you're doing it on purpose. A person can accidentally begin to starve or freeze, a person can hit a thing with a non-weapon. The metaphor is imperfect and I think it isn't disingenuous to say that a feature obscured from any even slightly intuitive play and fundamentally requiring basically consent, does not harm those who don't care for it.

[gamehun20]

2 hours ago, Primalflower said:

because void walking is something that you functionally cannot stumble into unless you're doing it on purpose.

 

You can accidentally stumble into it, here is a post that's exactly about describing the situation 

 

23 hours ago, Lovens said:

Not to argue with you or anything but hilariously enough I did accidentally void walk once. I was running towards the void "river" between the two cave biomes with a lazy explorer and used it to teleport across while still running. I somehow ended up getting stuck in between the two landmasses after my teleport even though I clearly aimed my cursor at the land on the other side. Not sure if lag caused that or what. I wish I were recording, it was pretty funny. I still have a screenshot of that happening - you can see there are no walls/gates around to push me there. It did not affect my gameplay in the slightest though. I used /rescue command and landed where I intended. 

 

[Evelo]

Spoiler

Going in circles.

[grm9]

4 hours ago, goatt said:

So, you are saying, using bugs and using mods aren't much different. I disagree.

But if you really think so, it shouldn't be much different if you made this bug into a mod, because bug and mod aren't much different.

 

To me who think they are very different, it's good that the bug gets patched.

To you who think they aren't so different, patching it and replacing it with a mod won't make a difference for you.

That's a win win

respond to the entire message instead of a part of it without it's context, the results of someone playing with bugs and talking about that and someone playing with mods and changed world settings and talking about that are similar, but people have less opportunities to play with mods since they aren't allowed on some platforms and you'd need to have them installed on every server you play

[goatt]

44 minutes ago, grm9 said:

respond to the entire message instead of a part of it without it's context, the results of someone playing with bugs and talking about that and someone playing with mods and changed world settings and talking about that are similar, but people have less opportunities to play with mods since they aren't allowed on some platforms and you'd need to have them installed on every server you play

My point is very simple: You are trying as hard as you can to blur the line between bug and non-bug.

 

Sorry, it just makes no sense.

(Every other related topic stems from that point, none of which can really stand because its root argument is bad.)

 

You've argued that because A and B has similar effect, hence, A should be treated as B. That's not how it works. A and B has similar effects in a very specific scenario, but not in all scenarios. Bugs and features are very very different overall.

Arguing for effect is ok when we don't understand the topic. But the topic here is plain and well known. We can just discuss the root problem here, which is that this is a unintended bug that undermines the game in various ways.

You have denied those issues because it doesn't personally bother you, which is your second problem: you don't have a final say on whether it's a harmful bug or not. I don't have a final say either. But unless the game wants to treat void as walkable floors, the void should still be unwalkable void, as many mechanics have been designed based on.

 

In summary, you failed to address the root problem in plain sight, ignored the fact that new game content treats void as void, and make (what I think of as) lame arguments based on your preference.

[_zwb]

9 hours ago, grm9 said:

because it would affect some people negatively without affecting anyone positively

As others have pointed out, there are ways to fix the bug while improving the overall experience. Like reworking the tentapillar system.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

You've argued that because A and B has similar effect, hence, A should be treated as B. That's not how it works. A and B has similar effects in a very specific scenario, but not in all scenarios. Bugs and features are very very different overall

i didn't say that all bugs should be kept, obviously there are ones that affect everyone negatively that should be changed, e.g. inconsistent attack speed that got fixed, missing out on chat messages sent while you were loading into another shard etc.

1 hour ago, goatt said:

You have denied those issues because it doesn't personally bother you, which is your second problem: you don't have a final say on whether it's a harmful bug or not. I don't have a final say either

who does it bother except slightly people that are participating in competitions that practically don't exist because DST isn't a competitive game? A bug existing without affecting anyone negatively doesn't make the game worse

1 hour ago, goatt said:

But unless the game wants to treat void as walkable floors, the void should still be unwalkable void, as many mechanics have been designed based on

that still doesn't explain why the bug is bad because if using it makes you enjoy the game less and for less time, you can not use it

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

As others have pointed out, there are ways to fix the bug while improving the overall experience. Like reworking the tentapillar system

that's unrelated to removing the bug

[_zwb]

2 hours ago, grm9 said:

that's unrelated to removing the bug

But it would improve the overall experience, what's the problem with that if it wouldn't harm you?

[grm9]

20 minutes ago, _zwb said:

But it would improve the overall experience, what's the problem with that if it wouldn't harm you?

it would, since the devs' solution might end up being worse than a bug that was used as the solution previously, so it'd be better if they'd add their solution without removing that bug instead

[_zwb]

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

it would, since the devs' solution might end up being worse than a bug that was used as the solution previously, so it'd be better if they'd add their solution without removing that bug instead

By that logic we shouldn't change anything at all since it might get worse, we should only add things so you can have this bad solution and the good solution at the same time.

This feels like Klei keeping the option to enable research points in the version of DS where they removed it. It's obviously redundant seeing how good the new prototype system is.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

By that logic we shouldn't change anything at all since it might get worse, we should only add things so you can have this bad solution and the good solution at the same time.

This feels like Klei keeping the option to enable research points in the version of DS where they removed it. It's obviously redundant seeing how good the new prototype system is

it's realistic that the devs' solution will be worse now, since the way they design things changed a lot, i definitely wouldn't want them to e.g. rework a boss into something like the rift bosses, making the previous version of the boss inaccessible without mods, the button that makes that system's menu get opened after pressing it is also always on your screen and everyone would know about it and be bothered by their screen getting cluttered, unlike how it would've been in case of the devs changing big tentacles and not removing voidwalking

[_zwb]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

it's realistic that the devs' solution will be worse now, since the way the design things changed a lot,

Fair point

[goatt]

10 hours ago, grm9 said:

that still doesn't explain why the bug is bad because if using it makes you enjoy the game less and for less time, you can not use it

I’ve said it multiple times, which were direct response to your question. But you seem to be in denial and find your defense in saying “it’s fun to me”, which is exactly why I reminded you repeatedly of your unreasonable subjective bias.

 

yes, you enjoy it. I get it. And yes it’s harmful, you simply deny it without good reasons. This will be the last time I’m typing the same thing but I’ll type again just to summarize all the harmful effects in my past comments

1. it’s harmful to other players in the same server in online games

2. it’s harmful for perception of the game and its developers as the game is known for containing long standing controversial bugs

3. it makes players maladapt to exploits and become hostile to legitimate bug fixings.

4. bug like this hurts the fundamental mechanics. (I’ll use some example to be specific: void walking makes kiting trivia, prevents fw bone prison and day wallker’s sinkholes.) The players who abuse them probably won’t notice / refuse to admit, but it takes away game mechanics designed to make the game fun / meaningful.

5. it depletes the potential of future game content (for example, Keeping the bug also prevents the potential future implementation cave river system.)

 

When you said “make you enjoy” the game, you should’ve said “make me enjoy the game” or “make people like me” enjoy the game. Because I don’t enjoy void walking. And I feel bad and disappointed when people in the server invited me to their void gates.

 

10 hours ago, grm9 said:

who does it bother except slightly people that are participating in competitions that practically don't exist because DST isn't a competitive game?

I’ve mention it before, it’s not a competitive game, but is still an online game where people compete with resources. Have you never rolled dice against others for a boss loot?

You said keeping the bug will bother very few people in the face of the many reasons I’ve mentioned, and you’ve never actually responded. You just brushed it off lightly. I think you are in denial.

if I’m like you, I can simply say “fixing the bug won’t bother anyone except for the slightly people who play in private servers exploiting bugs”.

 

 

I don’t think I’ll respond anymore, because when I showed you the reasons why it’s bad, you simply dismiss it by saying it’s not bad without any discussion of the topic itself. I feel like talking to air (true feeling, not trying to insult you).

 

Plus, you arguments tend to blur concepts and lack objective reasoning. I feel exhausted and fruitless in exchanges like this.

[grm9]

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

1. it’s harmful to other players in the same server in online games

i've already responded to that and told you that there are hardly any bugs that allow you to significantly speed up progress to the point that anyone with minimal knowledge and skill would do things faster than you, there's also simply communication so you can ask someone if they're doing ruins if you want to do ruins so you can ask them to not do that/do it together/leave if you're unsatisfied with a chance of not getting to do it yourself and play another server

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

2. it’s harmful for perception of the game and its developers as the game is known for containing long standing controversial bugs

i've already told you that no one is going to say to someone considering to play the game that there's a specific bug that's in the game for a long time that you need to intentionally activate for it to do anything and all it does is help you in 2 scenarios that most newbies won't reach anytime soon after starting to play the game

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

3. it makes players maladapt to exploits and become hostile to legitimate bug fixings

what are "legitimate bug fixes"? if you're talking about people not wanting things that are allowing them to enjoy the game more to get removed, then that just makes sense and it isn't wrong even if they're bugs

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

4. bug like this hurts the fundamental mechanics. (I’ll use some example to be specific: void walking makes kiting trivia, prevents fw bone prison and day wallker’s sinkholes.) The players who abuse them probably won’t notice / refuse to admit, but it takes away game mechanics designed to make the game fun / meaningful

you can not use the bugs for making the game less fun, no one forces you to kill FW from the void after walking to the atrium through the void, you can decide to not do that, using it to make fighting things easier sounds absurd though, you won't be able to get closer to daywalker to make him attack you and you'll need to awkwardly get back into arena, kill woven shadows and unseen hands and then go and voidwalk just to save a slight bit of armor and waste a lot of time probably making it not worth it unless you're going to go around the entire arena to kill unseen hands using a boomerang or something of that sort but it probably wouldn't be easier than killing FW normally

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

5. it depletes the potential of future game content (for example, Keeping the bug also prevents the potential future implementation cave river system.)

they can remove it if it's in the way of implementing something entirely new and tbh it'd probably still work even if they'd add that, similarly to how walking on water still works but you need to not stop or cancel drowning after stopping

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

When you said “make you enjoy” the game, you should’ve said “make me enjoy the game” or “make people like me” enjoy the game

i didn't write it fully because that'd be much longer to write and i thought that it was obvious that i meant people that are using the bug to enjoy the game more

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

Have you never rolled dice against others for a boss loot?

happens rarely, usually people decide depending on who will need the item the most and who's planning to keep playing for longest

48 minutes ago, goatt said:

“fixing the bug won’t bother anyone except for the slightly people who play in private servers exploiting bugs”

meant that it'd bother slightly, not that they're slightly people, it'd bother them more than slightly because mods can't be used on console and they'd need to only play on server with a mod that adds a removed bug back in comparison to people that are hosting competitions only needing to specify in the rules that using the bug isn't allowed or asking people that are participating to install a mod that removes the bug or install it on their server if all people that are going to participate will need to play that server because there are hardly any DST competitions anyway

[goatt]

17 minutes ago, grm9 said:

told you that there are hardly any bugs that allow you to significantly speed up progress to the point that anyone with minimal knowledge and skill would do things faster than you

If you think it's not competitive game, then you shouldn't do comparison in a competitive way. A pro player in a server could make ruins unavailable for everyone else, but it's ok, that's how game is. I speculate you are the one who actually treats the game a competition and find pleasure in being faster, and you assume everyone else also have the same desire, despite you said otherwise. Speed isn't what matters here.

A void walk lets you skip many many days of searching for the right tentacle pillars, and saves you the hassel having to go through oblisks and fight the clocks. A void walk disable the fw cage, prevents fw from getting too close, allow players with significantly less skills to "steal" from other legitmate players with less resources. Those are not "hardly .. significant.."

When someone got what you wanted because of skills, it's inspirational. When someone got what you wanted because they cheated, well, that's life. (Life can be (very) harmful)

 

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i've already told you that no one is going to say to someone considering to play the game that there's a specific bug that's in the game for a long time that you need to intentionally activate for it to do anything and all it does is help you in 2 scenarios that most newbies won't reach anytime soon after starting to play the game

subjective and lack of empathy.

 

25 minutes ago, grm9 said:

what are "legitimate bug fixes"? if you're talking about people not wanting things that are allowing them to enjoy the game more to get removed, then that just makes sense and it isn't wrong even if they're bugs

26 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can not use the bugs for making the game less fun, no one forces you to kill FW from the void after walking to the atrium through the void

denial that void walk causes the game problems, but focus on the "benefits" of bugs.

 

27 minutes ago, grm9 said:

happens rarely, usually people decide depending on who will need the item the most and who's planning to keep playing for longest

subjective and lack of empathy

 

28 minutes ago, grm9 said:

they can remove it if it's in the way of implementing something entirely new and tbh it'd probably still work even if they'd add that, similarly to how walking on water still works but you need to not stop or cancel drowning after stopping

now you support water walking too? I'm not too surprised.

 

Sorry about my laziness.

[grm9]

14 minutes ago, goatt said:

A void walk lets you skip many many days of searching for the right tentacle pillars

exactly, it allows you to skip the boring part

14 minutes ago, goatt said:

saves you the hassel having to go through oblisks and fight the clocks

there's no need to kill clockworks btw, you can just run through

15 minutes ago, goatt said:

A void walk disable the fw cage, prevents fw from getting too close

i've already said how absurd it is 

15 minutes ago, goatt said:

allow players with significantly less skills to "steal" from other legitmate players with less resources

you might not even find out about how they did that unless you see the gates that they left and i've already mentioned that you can communicate so there's no wasted effort

16 minutes ago, goatt said:

subjective and lack of empathy

pointless

17 minutes ago, goatt said:

denial that void walk causes the game problems, but focus on the "benefits" of bugs

ignorance

17 minutes ago, goatt said:

subjective and lack of empathy

unrelated

17 minutes ago, goatt said:

now you support water walking too? I'm not too surprised

not even what i said

[goatt]

On 2/24/2024 at 5:56 PM, grm9 said:

exactly, it allows you to skip the boring part

there's no need to kill clockworks btw, you can just run through

i've already said how absurd it is 

you might not even find out about how they did that unless you see the gates that they left and i've already mentioned that you can communicate so there's no wasted effort

pointless

ignorance

unrelated

not even what i said

At least, you seem to admit you are subjective and lack of empathy and disregard others' legitimate opinions without good reasons (as you called "subjective and lack of empathy" "pointless and unrelated"). That's the exact reason I'm quitting the discussion and leave all our past discussions to be judged by anyone who reads them.