Should skillsets even exist?

[Swiyss]

Okay so basically everyone that commented here said one thing in common.

And for me that's the biggest issue. How do you implement a system that 1 does not mix with the game style 2 is supposed to be rewarding but not cost that much hard work and 3 has to take in consideration all survivors and different players with different views of the game, even if some of them do not need changes.

For me it's simple. As a long time wormwood and woodie player that played before the skillsets were added, I got happy, super happy, because :

wormwood is great at combat and gathering now, as opposed to only being looked as the farming character.

You might say this is wrong, and that we should have a fighter character, a farming character and a strong character in all lanes. But I disagree, take warly, maxwell and wx78 for example, they can do most things in the game and are customizable. Their spikes are great and progression feels nice. As a maxwell player, once you get that level 4 shadow gear, you're set. As wx78, searching for a rook or scanning a healing spider is key for having op stats. As warly, grinding until you can get all of your spices is awesome and when achieved gives a sense of reward.

Those things however are not in every single character. We still have winona for example, she is similar to warly and can be used until not needed and switched. In my opinion this is a bad design. But how do we fix warly and winona with skill trees? First we need to identify the problem :

There is no reason to specifically play winona except for catapults and fixing tape. And those things are not unique to her since other survivors can also use it.

The reasons to play warly are much more like disadvantages than rewards, and the reward part can be added to every single character, just like winona.

At first these might sound like a problem for warly and winona players, but it's a good thing for everyone else. So.. the problem lies on giving players a reason to pick warly or winona.

Well, I'll start. Warly is a cook. Cooking gives you power, and that power relies on food and spices. But what is another thing that warly has that no one have? The ability to cook, so without him, wolfgang can't hit those insane damage spikes. Well you might say he's a support character, then if he supports other survivors and ALREADY can gather well, do more damage and farm better, then let him shine as a PILLAR character. The idea goes like that :

Warly found a way to break down nutrients from foods, and can now offer a "balanced diet book" for everyone. Once read, survivors will know how food works and benefit with a bonus when eating food. That solidify him as a helper. After that, we need to identify which areas of the solo gameplay could receive improvements. Those are :

1 Combat; killing bosses and fighting enemies on the go.

2 Gathering; collecting resources and moving them, crafting etc..

3 Farming; getting specific giant crops and special vegetables to unlock food efficiency.

4 Progression; tasks that need to be done to advance in the game such as exploring the world (movespeed), moving statues, sailing etc..

So.. basically warly already have combat, gathering, farming. He lacks progress in the sense that he does not have movespeed bonus. He also lacks sailing skills as he's the same as wilson on boat and on moving statues.

So if we're going to apply any more changes to him for example, we need to focus on this area. But, if we make it so everyone can benefit from a coffee ground made by him for ex. Wormwood, wolfgang and wx78 unique movespeed bonuses are just going to stack, so the power creep rises while warly stays forgotten. So, why don't we make so only him can ground coffee because all characters wouldn't like coffee for example. Then why not make it so coffee helps him with sailling and moving statues. Honestly, why don't we find a way for warly to break down micronutrients on certain vegetables, but only he can eat it because other survivors find it nasty or weird for ex. Now we made warly good on a group, good solo, good on all 4 main areas of the game on top of his affinity giving him bonus perks against a certain group.

If we try to do the same with winona, we have to take something in consideration first. She is boring to play I think. Being hungry by crafting is a great mechanic since you can just eat. But.. what if she can craft most items with a discount? Say she found a way to craft them easier. Still it would also make an impact on others, making her also a support character.

After solidifying this idea, we can expect her to shine or her own. Well, she's a hard worker. Why not make her find ways to build a permanent mechanic upgrade to her body, making it so she's kinda of a cyborg. She can run faster with mechanical legs, similar to wx78. As a wagstaff apprentice, we can assume she knows what she is doing. Fixing all of those areas of gameplay while making it unique to her is great.

For wormwood, his blooming last longer and spike faster (that part of the skill tree SHOULD be ONLY rewarding the player IF the player does something PER WORLD that changes the course of his gameplay. Eg killing bee queen). I think thats a great design. He basically have a way to fight better before and after rifts. He also is greatly enhanced by this. He can already farm well and move around the map quick.

in a theoretical perfect world, I think every character has a thing they are the best at, with some all-in-one exceptions. I'll list them here :

Wilson should be the best at managing resources, he should be a multiplier. He should be basic, but also be the best at managing grass, twigs, rocks, wood and etc. If he had the ability to play more with transmutation, this would make sense for him and he would shine a bit brighter on late game.

Willow should be an alternative for combat. She should really shine at fighting alone, and she should benefit from setting things on fire. I think she could be an example of "the longer you fight, the more damage you do". Bearnie should be an assistant to her damage while she fights, and also greatly improve her abilities when fought together. Bearnie should also be able to shine, while willow is his assistant, she should greatly improve his damage if she chooses to. So basically willow leads while bearnie assists vs bearnie leads while willow assists. That way she can have 2 styles of gameplay, area of effect killing lots of creatures vs soloing bosses focusing on 1 creature. That way, she could greatly improve her combat from regular to impactful. As opposed to the "support" kinda category of survivors, she's a loner, because fire damages them, but she prioritizes fire over people. That for me is her identity, that's willow. And we could definitely add some gathering choices and/or fire aid in specific situations. I think a smaller star caller is great, I think a bigger lighter range should be 1 level only, but with the highest range, I think cooking faster helps a lot, I think the firepit and campfire bonus is great too. All of those things add up. She should also be weaker in winter (as she is) and while wet/close to water, but stronger in the sun and summer/close to fire and heat. That is to make her feel cohesive to her identity. She should not be the best at anything but using fire. Dragonfly armor should be a necessary for her and also a big buff. She could draw or enhance power from it to aid her melee combat. Her skills should only aid her combat, not be a separate thing that you can do. Spamming damage on cd while attacking is really not well integrated. The dfly armor should regen on her too. She should be able to learn with fire hounds to unlock some skills. That should be obvious. There is so much missed also. Like she should greatly improve the star caller or have another use for red gems. So.. Willow lets the fire takeover, or bearnie rules. That's willow for me.

Wolfgang SHOULD be the best at dealing damage. He was always like that, period, since he first came out until this day, he is the one doing the most amount of damage in the game. Not maxwell, not wanda. He should have a regular skillset, just damage. His skillset was incredible, and I think that he is also the best at speedrunning the game. He should be the leader I think, everyone likes to be protected by someone with biggers arms and a way bigger heart. He can move statues quicker (progression), fight better (combat) and has movespeed on his base kit. He can also support others and although I think it should be focused more on gathering/farming, the idea is there. He is not only about himself but others too. I just think his support role could be greatly improved. Also, the gym feels really unintuitive, like most things in willow's skillset.

Wickerbottom is not the best at a big thing is specific, but rather great on various places. For me, playing wicker alone is already a huge step up, and playing with friends brings an even bigger advantage. She is also a very good support (was for wx78), and I think that she should remain good at almost everything. For her skillset, I think klei should really just not add much power but rather focus on specific character interaction and leveling up the books with either shadow or lunar magic. I think her skillset should be divided from the beginning, so that the first thing you have to ask yourself is if you want wagstaff altered books or charlie altered books.

Woodie in a sense is perfect. I have no complains, he can assist but is also great on his own like most characters should be.

Wes should be the hardest and most annoying troll character.

Wigfrid should be a great melee combat character. I think she should be the best at riding beefalos. For me she is the tanker. The one that bosses are gonna choose to harm. She should be the focus on fights, but if well prepared, she should thrive. The beefalo thing is her theme. I think she should naturally tame a beefalo quicker and easier, around day 12 if done consistently. Then, everyone that wants a beefalo gets to have them quicker too if wigfrid is in the world, but not as quick as her. She should influence beefalos battle spirit. She should be the leader of the beefalos, and everyone should get bonus damage and protections if fighting alongside her on a beefalo. She should choose between being an animal tamer or a solo monster, and I think they should've implemented interactions with volt goats, no eyed deers and grass gators. She should be able to mount on one and fight on the ocean with everyone. Wigfrid is a great support with beefalos or a great fighter if solo. If they are going with the beefalo thing, just make it complete. Go all out and gives us a reason to mount them, it should be an alternative, that when fought together grants gigantic buffs, the more beefalos the better. That's her skillset for me.

I think webber is the coolest character in the game. His rework was kinda nice, but very suspicious in the sense that I love playing him but it still feels like.. Why? I can do better elsewhere. Well in my opinion he shouldn't be a support neither a helper, he should be like willow, an alternative melee spider leader combat character. He should teleport between spider nests from deep spiders in the caves like a wormhole, but only if he explored it prior and offered goodies to the spiders. He should be a cave menace. He should make spiders stronger when in a group, in a way that they can feel invincible together. Man how I love playing webber. He should have a stronger grip, he should have venom damage overtime if multiple spiders are attacking, he should ask spiders to move him quicker or move things quicker for him, he should fly over water with sea striders. He has so much potential, from fighting to placing strategic travel points in the caves. He could sense the ruins and the labyrinth maybe. His skillset should be spider friendly or spider antagonist. Using the powers of spiders to reign over them or playing alonside them and being on with them. Those 2 choices solidify his identity for me. As for lunar or shadow, I think klei could focus on caves vs surface. Give him night vision already, c'mon.

Wormwood is great where he is, almost perfect. Just wish he had to take more steps before benefitting from certain skills.

Wendy, oh wendy. She is my top 3 characters. Why? Cause you don't need to care about anything, your sister is there for you. That for me is the definition of a great lore implemented in-game. Once in pain, now she rests on her sisters back. Almost a great tragedy too. She should be fight or flight. Imagine you're in the constant with your dead sister as a ghost, with this depressed almost weirdly hopeless feel to everything. The only person that could bring you joy almost hurts to touch. Now, in game she is an early game monster. Spiders, hounds and frog waves could all happen at once. Bee queen and crab king are easier with her and fuelweaver as well. She for me is the definition of surviving indefinitely. She should be the best at overcoming every single issue she encounters. Progression shouldn't be buffed, nor gathering or the relationship with other survivors too, she already have some of that. I think sticking to combat is their best option. Her potions are great, but not necessary. I think atleast 5 skills should be situational lore-wise (She could set a protection barrier to aid on the moon caller staff event, just a simple circle) and 10 skills focused on combat (like maybe abigail could have a "skill" that "roots" enemies or "stun" them in place, almost like a sleep paralysis from a ghost. Maybe a horror scream that put enemies in awe). She could be able to choose between a bigger area of damage for lots of enemies or a single enemy bound that keep them in place. Or even a protection side of skills to aid her allies against too many monsters, that kinda noobie stuff.

Wx78 is the same as woodie, wicker and maxwell I think. Just another survivor that survives well, that's it. He has already a lot going on, so maybe just things focused on combat should work. He shouldn't move marbles quicker nor sail better or gather quicker. I think he can have lots of cool stuff, I have a whole skillset suggestions post written in the Suggestions tab so I won't talk much here. He just should be great at lots of separate things like wormwood. And combat should be the focus. We also need atleast a warbis interaction, that's the minimum.

Maxwell. Yeah, I don't care, I really don't. About nothing, anything. Klei, just do it. Yes, do it. Just buff THE FU* out of him. I freaking love this guy. He is the perfect antagonist to the series. For me, 2 shadow sides, one focused on both fighting and letting the shadows do the work, but with extra book management and another side where he joins the fight and let the shadows aid him, all with planar damage ofc. Alternatively he should choose between altering the nature of the soldiers themselves, making them stronger the more time passes, scalling to a point where getting there almost feels like the enemy has no room to escape. Duelists attack faster and faster while the clock ticks and shadows start to consume the enemies energy, making them drop fuel when hit with a small %.

I prefer to not opinate on other characters since I don't have that much experience with them (except wurt, which should be something close to webber, but for frogs and merms).

If we're talking about how skillsets could be implemented, there is a lot of speculation. But certain things are a must in my opinion. Every character needs some sort of motivation to play. If I wake up wanting to obliterate bosses I'll play wolfgang or wigfrid. If maybe I want a nice solo experience, I can pick the 5 non-human characters like wormwood, wurt, webber, wortox and wx78. If I want the best experience on a beefalo and with great skill involved I'll play maxwell. If winona and warly have almost no incentive to play, than I'll get bored quickly. But all of this is just my opinion, not a rule. You guys can disagree with me and that's fine. I'll still focus on next updates. I'm honestly hyped for next skillsets, I just don't wanna see the same mistakes repeatedly.

 

[Swiyss]

In the case of skillsets, let's take in consideration that the skill trees ended and now we got future plans for updates. Are any changes in the game goint to be present on skillsets? Are we changing them or adding stuff? Is klei going to add more space in the skillsets? How many years will it take to do that for every character though. 

My concerns are on optimizing the game's updates. We should look into the future, 3, 4 or 5 years from now. What's the bigger picture? What's the big plan?

If the plan is distant and they want to play around while they slowly walk towards this goal, we should atleast get some more lore development and qol fixes. Thankfully that's already the case.

So for skillsets, if we actually want to rewars the player for playing the game, lock some skills behind actually playing around quests and objectives. Kill crab king to unlock, find pearl to unlock etc..

[Antynomity]

7 hours ago, Paxtonnnn said:

I miss when 'uncompromising' was just a fun way to describe a difficult game and not something people on these forums can't go 5 minutes without saying as if their life depended on it because they can't comprehend the idea of anything ever getting buffed.

I think skill trees were the wrong way to go but sometimes this site is just embarrassing

These skill trees are embarrassing at being actual 'skill trees'.

12 hours ago, Yuuko said:

snip

dst is trying to become terraria but worse

thats why instead im playing terraria more than dst as of late

 

[chirsg]

Terraria sucks. Have fun with your night's edge that becomes obsolete within 10 minutes and having to grind for 12,000 hours to forge a legendary mememere sword that's a product of a meme from 15 years ago.

At least klei has a bit of class aside from having no good way to amass decorations. 

[Reecitz]

1 minute ago, chirsg said:

At least klei has a bit of class aside from having no good way to amass decorations. 

Still complaining about that, huh? Typical. 

[Frosty_Mentos]

I'd prefer that you get more powerful on killing giant monsters or observing their fights at least. Participation or learning would get the group more powerful or you when you make the world fight itself.

I don't like that insight is easy to just cheese via console day skips and being available in all worlds. It doesn't feel like progression. Day count shouldn't be tied to "skill" because it only gives you the skill to last long than learn anything.

[zhangsheng]

25 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Terraria sucks.

It is foolish to elevate another game by belittling it. It can only be said that you are not suitable for Terraria. As a player who has played for 3000 hours, I can clearly tell you that Terraria is a great game.

[Trontar]

The game willingly give you the option to make your character better at surviving (reference to real life survival?) by spending more time in the constant, the more skilled, experienced, and better you get. It’s a pretty good trade off for your time. Again like I said, it is just a option too. (Last time I checked you didn’t need to use any skill tree points.) please correct me if I am wrong.

for the following below, it is just mostly my opinion.

The reason certain crafts are related to their character ties to their actual background. Like Wilson can transmute because he’s a cool and morbidly curious ‘scientist’. It’s like not like saying wigfrids crafts should be available to everyone,  most of the skill trees crafts and abilities are tied to the character at least somewhat. It doesn’t have to be good, but it leaves the community wanting more. Another thing I had to point is, is that getting skilltree points from doing random monotonous tasks around the world respectfully sounds like a not so good idea to get points in my opinion. If the skilltree points were earned this way, you could easily get maxed points out just preparing a fight for beequeen, setting up tents or decorations for base, or even just stocking up on resources. Having to defeat endgame bosses was honestly the best way to go, I’m not lying! Even if lunar and shadow affinity don’t connect to the characters’ skill tree in question, it can be improved in a QoL. I think having to make the player get better over time and then having to overcome a challenge to get power from ‘them’! You know, the game has some lore (that kind of contradicts some points in here, so I’ll probably reword that later.) 

just mostly my opinion on the skilltree and question from the poll above. This was actually not a boring or unethical topic to chat about.

[_zwb]

6 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Have you played wormwood with the bramble husk skill? 

Ugh, do I really have to do the maths for you? Fine...

Assuming you and your target stand still, and your target does not fight back:

• Dark sword DPS = 68 / (13/30) = 156.92, rounded to 2dp
• Wigfrid with dark sword DPS = 68 * 1.2/ (13/30) = 188.31, rounded to 2dp
• Wormwood with bramble specialist DPS = [68 + (68/3) / 3] / (13 / 30) = 174.36, rounded to 2dp
• The bramble specialist's damage boost = 174.36 / 156.92 = 111%, a 11% damage boost, barely over alliance boost.

If you are fighting a single target, then the damage boost is barely anything, especially that "single target" could have 10k hp. If you are fighting groups of enemies then you are better off just tank them to trigger AOE faster. In actual fights you would also have to kite the enemy for this skill, which further decrease the DPS.  Oh, and don't forget bramble armour deals regular damage, so it's even more useless fighting post-rift enemies.

I've played Wormwood quite a lot and the only skill I found useful was light bug and bloom duration perks, but still, lantern and super growth formula exists, so they are not that game changing.

[grm9]

17 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Ugh, do I really have to do the maths for you? Fine...

Assuming you and your target stand still, and your target does not fight back:

• Dark sword DPS = 68 / (13/30) = 156.92, rounded to 2dp
• Wigfrid with dark sword DPS = 68 * 1.2/ (13/30) = 188.31, rounded to 2dp
• Wormwood with bramble specialist DPS = [68 + (68/3) / 3] / (13 / 30) = 174.36, rounded to 2dp
• The bramble specialist's damage boost = 174.36 / 156.92 = 111%, a 11% damage boost, barely over alliance boost

there's no reason not to use it though, since there's nothing better for the body slot since you can have magi speedboost from blooming

18 minutes ago, _zwb said:

In actual fights you would also have to kite the enemy for this skill, which further decrease the DPS

you generally wouldn't want to tank in case of many fights, especially new ones

19 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Oh, and don't forget bramble armour deals regular damage, so it's even more useless fighting post-rift enemies

it doesn't deal much damage per hit so the decrease is only around 25%

[chirsg]

1 hour ago, Reecitz said:

Still complaining about that, huh? Typical. 

What's typical?

[somethin]

1 hour ago, _zwb said:

Assuming you and your target stand still, and your target does not fight back:

• Dark sword DPS = 68 / (13/30) = 156.92, rounded to 2dp
• Wigfrid with dark sword DPS = 68 * 1.2/ (13/30) = 188.31, rounded to 2dp
• Wormwood with bramble specialist DPS = [68 + (68/3) / 3] / (13 / 30) = 174.36, rounded to 2dp
• The bramble specialist's damage boost = 174.36 / 156.92 = 111%, a 11% damage boost, barely over alliance boost.

Damage boost is damage boost. 10% faster fights are always > than regular fights. The bramble damage can also make you hit treshold for some mobs, which means weapon durability conservation. What's the issue here?

[_zwb]

21 minutes ago, somethin said:

Damage boost is damage boost. 10% faster fights are always > than regular fights.

It's not a 10% damage boost, if you get hit or unequip bramble husk before the third hit the counter resets, and you can't choose when it triggers. Sure, it's better than not having it but it still isn't impactful. It doesn't help you get over threshold because it doesn't boost your damage directly, Wormwood is still default damage modifier character.

[grm9]

55 minutes ago, _zwb said:

It doesn't help you get over threshold because it doesn't boost your damage directly

you can save 1% of dark sword durability per hound killed by hitting them twice using dark sword and once using fist because 68 + 68 + 10 + 22 = 168

[mykenception]

idk about all the bramble husk maths but the skill for the bramble husk allowed me to easily kill spiders (if I kite a bit), bees and baby tentacles without getting hit, not to mention the skill works while mounted. The bramble trap skill lets me farm shadow splumonkies consistently and also kill pesky pirates on my boat without much trouble. Works great for hound defense too.