Remove the cooldown, make the skills post rifts

[HowlVoid]

Some people will hate me for this suggestion and others will welcome it.

If they are so "strong" then just make it post rifts and remove the cooldown altogether.

Make every affinity skill post rifts and be consistent. I mean, in the long run this could be a good thing. With such a restraint you can make the skills stronger and maybe even allow for more creative. 

Alternatively, keep the cool down and when wearing post rifts gear remove it (CD).

This may make the power of the spells more aligned with character progression. Having the cooldown all throughout post game won't feel good nor rewarding. It will even be a hindrance and possibly unusable when harder content is released. 

This would help with some sort of future proofing.

Spoiler

Totally not doing this because I have ulterior motives...

This is a simple and imo elegant solution.

[Yuuko]

I've suggested gating their damage behind feeding your lighter a pure horror or pure brilliance.  idk about gating the skill entirely b/c these aren't just stats like adding planar damage or defense, but actual active skills.  They should be useful all around - but we could easily cut their damage by 50%, and when you spend an end-game fuel you get the other half of the damage back as planar.

At 50% damage they could still be useful for handling some situations with weaker mobs like woven shadows, shadow monkeys, etc but it would be more obviously weaker then just swinging a weapon.

I don't know how much that addresses the cd nonsense - I feel that is more tied to having no cap on embers.  Without an ember cap they need some gate so you don't just spam the attack all day.  The embers are obviously (and statedly) similar to Wortox souls.  He has a cap, why doesn't she?

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

I've suggested gating their damage behind feeding your lighter a pure horror or pure brilliance.  idk about gating the skill entirely b/c these aren't just stats like adding planar damage or defense, but actual active skills.  They should be useful all around - but we could easily cut their damage by 50%, and when you spend an end-game fuel you get the other half of the damage back as planar.

I don't know how much that addresses the cd nonsense - I feel that is more tied to having no cap on embers.  Without an ember cap they need some gate so you don't just spam the attack all day.  The embers are obviously (and statedly) similar to Wortox souls.  He has a cap, why doesn't she?

Yes but they haven't added a cap on embers, have they?

We've been around the forum; you know as well as I if it don't stick on the wall, it's just won't stick. No matter how much you hope the idea thrown at the wall will stick. They have conversations at Klei we aren't privy to. Sometimes their mind is made up days ago and we are here repeating the same idea lol. 

Better to come up with all kinds of solutions and hope one will stick.

This particular solution addresses their assumed perception of the ability too strong but accounts for the possibility of progression. Letting it be strong when it may make more sense to the Klei devs.

[Yuuko]

10 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Sometimes their mind is made up days ago and we are here repeating the same idea lol. 

And yet Wendy, Wolfgang, and Wormwood were given additional work based on feedback.  Feedback that had been continually given since the beginning and met with many odd alternatives until the finality of what we were getting became real enough that feedback crystalized around a few workable principles.

I believe ember cap is the better solution in keeping with the theme of Willow's love of burning things to the ground and balancing power.  I haven't seen any comments that make me feel otherwise.  I don't think gating access to the spell to post-rifts means anything about cooldowns b/c they are addressing different issues.  The cd is about limiting spell casting within a window at any stage of the game.  Its not about power scaling from early to late game.

[Reecitz]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

And yet Wendy, Wolfgang, and Wormwood were given additional work based on feedback.  Feedback that had been continually given since the beginning and met with many odd alternatives until the finality of what we were getting became real enough that feedback crystalized around a few workable principles.

I believe ember cap is the better solution in keeping with the theme of Willow's love of burning things to the ground and balancing power.  I haven't seen any comments that make me feel otherwise.  I don't think gating access to the spell to post-rifts means anything about cooldowns b/c they are addressing different issues.  The cd is about limiting spell casting within a window at any stage of the game.  Its not about power scaling from early to late game.

And you saw the conditions I'd want if they actually listen to you, right?

[Yuuko]

Just now, Reecitz said:

And you saw the conditions I'd want if they actually listen to you, right?

idk why do you prefer cd on Willow?  How do you feel this meshes with her thematically or mechanically?

[HowlVoid]

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

And yet Wendy, Wolfgang, and Wormwood were given additional work based on feedback.  Feedback that had been continually given since the beginning and met with many odd alternatives until the finality of what we were getting became real enough that feedback crystalized around a few workable principles.

That's not what I was referring to.

Some concepts are scrapped period.

Petals and Wolfgang's speed are two such things.

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I believe ember cap is the better solution in keeping with the theme of Willow's love of burning things to the ground and balancing power.  I haven't seen any comments that make me feel otherwise.  I don't think gating access to the spell to post-rifts means anything about cooldowns b/c they are addressing different issues.  The cd is about limiting spell casting within a window at any stage of the game.  Its not about power scaling from early to late game.

It's fine to die on a hill, I personally prefer to arrive at a solution no matter what how it ends up happening.

I wanted husks to do dmg without requiring to be attacked. I died on the hill of passive activation through blooming. Someone suggest based on attack and that was what was added. Being stubborn just slows things down.

[Soul7k]

people have drove this point back and forth into the ground and given several different alternative ideas a lot of which I'd take over a cd, and even laid out the dps times compared with a bunch of different characters, but they are hardstuck on it. idk why. at the very least at least it isnt lighting friends on fire anymore.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

That's not what I was referring to.

I'm some concepts are scrapped period.

Petals and Wolfgang's speed are two such things.

I'm not talking about Wolfgang's speed - I advocated for him to gain mighty by doing mighty things ie work.  It was weird that he would have to lift weights to swing an axe better, but then have to stop swinging an axe to lift weights.

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

It's fine to die on a hill, I personally prefer to arrive at a solution no matter what how it end up happening.

I wanted husks to do dmg without requiring to be attacked. I died on the hill of passive activation through blooming. Someone suggest based on attack and that was what was added. Being stubborn just slows things down.

idk what your suggestion was, as I didn't care much for Wormwood so I didn't play through his beta BUT I'm going to guess if your suggestion was looked over while triggering the barbs on ever 3rd attack was accepted, that your suggestion was lacking interaction.  Gaining benefit for just standing around isn't fun, but attacking and getting that extra damage proc is - even though its something you'd be doing anyway.  It enhances the fantasy of a combat Wormwood.

cd is antithesis to Willow player fantasy - A character who wants the world to burn, and distinctly lacks patience and reserve.  It is more thematic that she can burn out of resources and hit empty rather than slow down her consumption.  It also gives a more interactable play pattern b/c you can more freely use your skills rather than holding on to them for the "right moment," and gather more embers on your way to keep up your supply.

[HowlVoid]

6 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

people have drove this point back and forth into the ground and given several different alternative ideas a lot of which I'd take over a cd, and even laid out the dps times compared with a bunch of different characters, but they are hardstuck on it. idk why. at the very least at least it isnt lighting friends on fire anymore.

Yeah, without knowing exactly why the cooldown was introduced (too oppeeeee?) Coming up with a solution that may satisfy both players and the devs is akin to walking down a tightrope blind.

[Soul7k]

6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Yeah, without knowing exactly why the cooldown was introduced (too oppeeeee?) Coming up with a solution that may satisfy both players and the devs is akin to walking down a tightrope blind.

wendie can do the same damage 60% faster with a hambat which lasts a whole day at peak damage and abigail who is free

[GenomeSquirrel]

I’m somewhat curious why they added cooldown myself, it feels like the context alone can’t be narrowed in on.

 

For now I’ll hope cd will continue to shrink, and nothing else happens.

[Reecitz]

39 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

idk why do you prefer cd on Willow?  How do you feel this meshes with her thematically or mechanically?

Idk why you're acting dumb right now. Why are you assuming I want cooldowns?

I'll repeat myself if you truly can't comprehend what people have said in the past.

For those who DON'T make up what people say to justify their agendas, if an ember cap HAS to be implemented:

A) The ember stack size should be increased 

B) The cost of spells should be reduced 

C) The restriction of certain mobs that don't drop embers should be lifted 

D) All of the above 

What I said isn't too complex for people with basic intelligence to understand, is it?

[somethin]

The only thing they need to do is basically reduce shadow flame cd to 2 seconds and all is right in the world. If they do that I'm a happy camper. (Unlike Walter, who deserves to be miserable)

[Reecitz]

Seriously, just when I thought there could be a trace of hope left in the forums...

[Soul7k]

26 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

Idk why you're acting dumb right now. Why are you assuming I want cooldowns?

I'll repeat myself if you truly can't comprehend what people have said in the past.

For those who DON'T make up what people say to justify their agendas, if an ember cap HAS to be implemented:

A) The ember stack size should be increased 

B) The cost of spells should be reduced 

C) The restriction of certain mobs that don't drop embers should be lifted 

D) All of the above 

What I said isn't too complex for people with basic intelligence to understand, is it?

you didnt lead with this

 

1 hour ago, Reecitz said:

And you saw the conditions I'd want if they actually listen to you, right?

you led with this. relax

[Reecitz]

4 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

you didnt lead with this

 

you led with this. relax

I don't have to when they liked every post I made prior being against cooldowns. They can relax with the stupidity. 

[Yuuko]

55 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

I don't have to when they liked every post I made prior being against cooldowns. They can relax with the stupidity. 

I have no problems with any of the suggestions you have - but I would draw this line - I would swap cd's for a 1 stack cap with no other changes and still consider it a good move.  Any other consideration would be fine, but I would not require any of that to swap cd for an ember cap.

If you mean to say you would only take a swap of cd for a 1 stack cap if you get your extra list then my question is:

Why would you prefer cd's over a 1 stack cap?  Why would you keep cd's if these other things are not changed?

 

Sometimes we forget that context does not carry over, or presumptions are not shared.  I presumed you would catch my meaning, "do not let perfect be the enemy of good."  That was my bad.

[Reecitz]

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I have no problems with any of the suggestions you have - but I would draw this line - I would swap cd's for a 1 stack cap with no other changes and still consider it a good move.  Any other consideration would be fine, but I would not require any of that to swap cd for an ember cap.

If you mean to say you would only take a swap of cd for a 1 stack cap if you get your extra list then my question is:

Why would you prefer cd's over a 1 stack cap?  Why would you keep cd's if these other things are not changed?

 

Sometimes we forget that context does not carry over, or presumptions are not shared.  I presumed you would catch my meaning, "do not let perfect be the enemy of good."  That was my bad.

My question is: why would you keep assuming I want cooldowns like an idiot? 

The perfect scenario for me is having neither cooldowns or a limit of any kind, to make it super simple for you to understand, because the spells in reality aren't strong enough to warrant it, and people who sensibly aren't paranoid of memes would prefer having no limit; the few people who think the spells mean easy wins will soon find out the truth on their own when they realize how little damage they actually do in comparison to the clickbaiting youtube videos they watch on a daily, and how much of a hassle collecting ember truly is.

If you can’t comprehend common sense at this point, I don't know what else to do for you. 

[Yuuko]

10 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

If you can’t comprehend common sense at this point, I don't know what else to do for you. 

Common sense is that we HAD that version - spells with no limits - and from there Klei did actually add cd on top of that.

I think it is fair to say Klei believed that after seeing that, it was not the place they wanted her to be.

Therefore some middle ground must be found which both addresses Klei's concerns and accommodates the change we want to see.  Its not like we have veto power to just tell Klei to remove the CD and do nothing lol  They have all of the power.  If we do not construct a convincing argument to them they have no reason to make a change.

I presume their change was a response to the memes.  They could have in intended her to get a cd all along.  But that kinda doesn't matter - what matters is where we are, and where we want to be.  Where we are is cd's on spells.

For me the most important change is an ember cap, with no cd's.  If nothing else changes, I'm fine with that.  It is a simple, actionable alternative that I feel could meet whatever issue caused them to add a cd to her spells.

[Reecitz]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Common sense is that we HAD that version - spells with no limits - and from there Klei did actually add cd on top of that.

I think it is fair to say Klei believed that after seeing that, it was not the place they wanted her to be.

Therefore some middle ground must be found which both addresses Klei's concerns and accommodates the change we want to see.  Its not like we have veto power to just tell Klei to remove the CD and do nothing lol  They have all of the power.  If we do not construct a convincing argument to them they have no reason to make a change.

I presume their change was a response to the memes.  They could have in intended her to get a cd all along.  But that kinda doesn't matter - what matters is where we are, and where we want to be.  Where we are is cd's on spells.

For me the most important change is an ember cap, with no cd's.  If nothing else changes, I'm fine with that.  It is a simple, actionable alternative that I feel could meet whatever issue caused them to add a cd to her spells.

Of course you'd be fine with it; you don't care about how others feel. But the world doesn't revolve around you, I'm sorry to say.

I personally want the basic lighter skills to be better, so that not only Willow could use fire as a more offensive tool, but also to make the skills less clunky, cumbersome and tedious to use and interact with. 

But I already made peace with the fact that we don't always get what we want; it's about time you learn the same. 

[Yuuko]

14 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

But I already made peace with the fact that we don't always get what we want; it's about time you learn the same. 

It just stands to reason that if Klei already saw situation A and decided to nerf it, that saying we should just go back to situation A isn't going to work lol.  Similarly if we can't get a single concession it does not make sense to extend the list of requests.  I choose to keep my ask simple - b/c I feel the biggest problem with Willow's fire tree is the cd.  As a concession I would take a 1 stack cap to cover any kind of balance issues Klei may have seen - meme or otherwise.  Yes that is where I am, and no I don't care if other people want to take that and say "Yeah only if we also get xyz" b/c all that does imo is say they'd rather keep the cd.

Klei is going to do what they are going to do - but they have a track record of reading the forums, and considering feedback in ways that make sense for them.  They literally just changed Wig's level 3 Beef perk to something completely different because of player feedback.  I'm going to spend my time in the beta and on the forums giving feedback that I feel has the best chance of steering the game in the direction that I feel is better.

I'm not going to spend it insulting people though.  You should probably cool that off.  I don't really care, but others might.

[Mysterious box]

Personally I still stand by it's better off having a cooldown than a ember cap

[Reecitz]

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

It just stands to reason that if Klei already saw situation A and decided to nerf it, that saying we should just go back to situation A isn't going to work lol.  Similarly if we can't get a single concession it does not make sense to extend the list of requests.  I choose to keep my ask simple - b/c I feel the biggest problem with Willow's fire tree is the cd.  As a concession I would take a 1 stack cap to cover any kind of balance issues Klei may have seen - meme or otherwise.  Yes that is where I am, and no I don't care if other people want to take that and say "Yeah only if we also get xyz" b/c all that does imo is say they'd rather keep the cd.

Klei is going to do what they are going to do - but they have a track record of reading the forums, and considering feedback in ways that make sense for them.  They literally just changed Wig's level 3 Beef perk to something completely different because of player feedback.  I'm going to spend my time in the beta and on the forums giving feedback that I feel has the best chance of steering the game in the direction that I feel is better.

I'm not going to spend it insulting people though.  You should probably cool that off.  I don't really care, but others might.

You should cool it with speaking to me period, especially if you claim you don't care.

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I still stand by it's better off having a cooldown than a ember cap

Would you at least be okay with the cooldowns being reduced a bit more?

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Reecitz said:

Would you at least be okay with the cooldowns being reduced a bit more?

Yes I already proposed 3 seconds on shadow fire raiser and 9 seconds on lunar fire raiser.