woodie Moose's damage buff being inconsistent increase to his DPS in unnecessarily unsatisfying way.

[Wonz]

The perk buffs your 3rd punch but only if they're done without breaks, just 3rd in a row while not moving so if you have to dodge after 1,2, 4, 5 or 7 etc... hits you miss one buffed punch.  The buffed punch deals 134 damage.

First few things so everyone knows where numbers come from. Human weapon swing occurs ever 0.45s while moose swings occur every 0.5s. Human attacks are 10% faster.
The unsatysfying inconsistency I'm speaking about is how when you can't throw amount of hits dividable by 3 to make optimal use of the perk because boss like dragonfly, deerclops even won't let you hit them 6 times and still having time to dodge

To give everyone picture how much stronger moose is compared to wilson with daksword here are example average DPS numbers not counting time spent on dodging with darksword except ofc moose.  

146.(6) | 100% of wilson damage
183.(3) | 125% of wilson's damage
293.(3) | 200% of wilson's damage
No perk: 119 |  81% of wilson's damage
With perk if you land 3hits or multiplies of 3 per dodge: 168,(6) |  115% of wilson's damage
With perk against bosses that won't let you do more than 4 hits per dodge: 156,25 |  106,5% of wilson's damage
With perk against bosses that won't let you do more than 5 hits per dodge: 148,8 |  101,5% of wilson's damage

 

I don't know why it should be damage buffed very 3rd hit and not 2nd? I understand they wanted to make people stop using animation canceling but why not buff 2nd hit?
If you move the buff to 2nd hit and reduce the damage from 134 to 109,1 he will keep the 168,(6) DPS but become more consistent increase, he will less often he will miss out on the damage increase as in case of 2,4 or ,5 hits + he will two shot hounds :v   

Extra info if you wanted to buff each punch and keep the current 168,(6) DPS then each punch would hit for 84,3 damage 
  
Just bonus idea below that's probably too hard to add but I like sharing thoughts:
Plain damage buffs are boring, this one has twist to it for people who like to see big numbers from time to time rather than moderate numbers every 2nd hit:
No more extra damage on punches but each punch builds a stack which buffs next charge damage up to 15 punches 25 extra damage each (It's less DPS than 168,(6) dps so actually maybe 30 would be perfect to compensate for animation) .
If charge is enhanced with at least 6 stacks and hits a boss it results in woodie stopping as if he hit a tree minus groginess effect, is having 100% damage reduction on it OR interrupt's target's attack and flinches them to allow you to avoid their attack after landing charge, enhanced charge will destroy objects like fuelweaver's bone cage or champion's crystals without woodie stopping on them as if he hit a tree.    
This way charge would have place in boss fights in other way than avoiding super fast attacks like level 3 rook's and it would be slightly more to it than Hold Ctrl+F, walk away and repeat.   
 

[Gashzer]

I think a part of the reason its a 3 punch combo is to encourage people to stop doing that stupid looking attack cancelling.

Now they just need to remove it from general combat all together.

[Wonz]

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I think a part of the reason its a 3 punch combo is to encourage people to stop doing that stupid looking attack cancelling.

Admit you didn't read the part where I wrote about it being 2 punch combo instead. 2 hits already should prevent it.   

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Wonz said:

Admit you didn't read the part where I wrote about it being 2 punch combo instead. 2 hits already should prevent it.   

Yeah i missed that bit but you are throwing alot of numbers here, there and everywhere 

Moose is all about that tanking action. With the health regen and boosted defence you can tank for the most of boss fights and take benefit of the boosted third hit and increased dps of not having to dodge. 

Dodging attacks as moose is for the noobs 

[Wonz]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Moose is all about that tanking action. With the health regen and boosted defence you can tank for the most of boss fights and take benefit of the boosted third hit and increased dps of not having to dodge. 

Dodging attacks as moose is for the noobs 

Dude i just want him to not be as boring as possible. Hate to see people defend CTRL+F and nothing else playstyle.

They made him perk removing speed penalty that allows him to dodge what makes me sure Klei wants people to make fights more interactive than holding two keys for minutes.  

[DaZoul]

well if you're gonna put boring math into it, it's obviously gonna sound bad

[Gashzer]

20 minutes ago, Wonz said:

Dude i just want him to not be as boring as possible. Hate to see people defend CTRL+F and nothing else playstyle.

They made him perk removing speed penalty that allows him to dodge what makes me sure Klei wants people to make fights more interactive than holding two keys for minutes.  

Its nice to have a CTRL+F playstyle... DST should be all about options. Wanda has a dodge-centric playstyle with her backstep watch and glass cannon nature. Its nice to have a character whos the opposite, woodies moose has less dps but is tanky as f for the rest of the team to benefit from that.

We need to ensure different characters have different approaches to combat. So i dont see a problem to max out dps with moose you need to do what its intended to do, be a tank.

[Wonz]

12 minutes ago, DaZoul said:

well if you're gonna put boring math into it, it's obviously gonna sound bad

Math isn't how things sound, it's hot things really are, the clear truth.

11 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

We need to ensure different characters have different approaches to combat. So i dont see a problem to max out dps with moose you need to do what its intended to do, be a tank.

Speed buff doesn't point to it being intended. He's tanky but that's because he can't eat in the form. Tanking will work on pushovers like deerclops but klei clearly wanted to make moose viable against such as even champion who would shred him if he didn't go for dodges.  

[Arcwell]

Tradeoffs.

Weremoose will not always outperform dark sword DPS and in my opinion that's absolutely fine for several reasons:

• infinite durability weapon
• infinite durability armor w/90% damage reduction
• +0.6 hp/sec
• AoE damage

It's similar to using a beefalo for combat. Beefalo (almost) never do optimal DPS, but the benefits they bring often make them worth it. If you don't value those benefits over raw DPS, that's fine too.

[Wonz]

3 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Tradeoffs.

Weremoose will not always outperform dark sword DPS and in my opinion that's absolutely fine for several reasons:

• infinite durability weapon
• infinite durability armor w/90% damage reduction
• +0.6 hp/sec
• AoE damage

It's similar to using a beefalo for combat. Beefalo (almost) never do optimal DPS, but the benefits they bring often make them worth it. If you don't value those benefits over raw DPS, that's fine too.

I'm not really suggesting a straight buff in most of he post. I meant to keep his damage output as it is and just make the perk proc more consistently.  
The part about charge attack is a buff but just to make the combat a bit different than hit X times, dodge, repeat and enable him to fight FW.  

[chirsg]

38 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah i missed that bit but you are throwing alot of numbers here, there and everywhere 

Moose is all about that tanking action. With the health regen and boosted defence you can tank for the most of boss fights and take benefit of the boosted third hit and increased dps of not having to dodge. 

Dodging attacks as moose is for the noobs 

Fight dragonfly with that philosophy and get back to me. 

[Maxwell Main]

I’m all for this, I think 2 hits with the lowered damage you suggested for the combo would be much better for consistency’s sake and for bosses like dfly.

[Antynomity]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

I think a part of the reason its a 3 punch combo is to encourage people to stop doing that stupid looking attack cancelling.

Now they just need to remove it from general combat all together.

how dare people be better than me!

[Copyafriend]

I think the lack of consistency is in fact on purpose.

i also believe you’re not intended to be able to get off your “max dps” unless you are tanking, which is moose’s specialty. 
 

i think you’re looking at it too much from the player perspective (which makes sensr) but sometimes abilities are designed to restrict you. The smash on third attack basically means that if you’re kiting you dont get your max dps. Because you only get to smash once per cycle at most, but sometimes you dont get to at all. 
 

thats good game design, even if it’s frustrating

[Wonz]

10 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I think the lack of consistency is in fact on purpose.

i also believe you’re not intended to be able to get off your “max dps” unless you are tanking, which is moose’s specialty. 
 

i think you’re looking at it too much from the player perspective (which makes sensr) but sometimes abilities are designed to restrict you. The smash on third attack basically means that if you’re kiting you dont get your max dps. Because you only get to smash once per cycle at most, but sometimes you dont get to at all. 
 

thats good game design, even if it’s frustrating

Good game design is intereactive can you really say you're playing more by just holding F instead of holding F and walking away after few hits to avoid enemy attacks? The stronger the boss the least likely it is you can win by tanking. It's opposite of how it should be. With moose's upgrades there were topics about how strong woodie is in combat from the very start later agreeing it's tough job to make him slowly grow in power as he progresses. The strength of the perk shouldn't scale down as you progress(You'll eventually be unable to win by tanking and be not very different from standard moose) I don't see how it can scale up but I see it can be at least linear. I'm not saying tanking shouldn't be an option but why encourage it discouraging the playstyle where you actually put effort and pay attention to boss and dodge?

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, chirsg said:

Fight dragonfly with that philosophy and get back to me. 

 

See easy peasy with the standard wall cheese! Was playing terrible too haha but aye ole' 3 punch moose works wonders atm with a tanking playstyle. 

No need to change it. Ofc i wasn't playing strictly moose but that would be dumb for alot of boss fights. You do need to woodie form occasionally for pan flute/healing salves which is where the skill comes in.

(dunno why no audio but meh..)

[Arcwell]

1 hour ago, Wonz said:

I'm not really suggesting a straight buff in most of he post. I meant to keep his damage output as it is and just make the perk proc more consistently.  
The part about charge attack is a buff but just to make the combat a bit different than hit X times, dodge, repeat and enable him to fight FW.  

I'm confused. Wasn't the point of a higher proc rate to make weremoose's DPS more consistently high? It's not more than the current maximum DPS sure, but you would end up dealing more DPS than the current system on average. How is that not objectively a buff?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a buff. I just don't think the current mechanic is as unrewarding as you suggest.

1 hour ago, chirsg said:

Fight dragonfly with that philosophy and get back to me. 

@Gashzer beat me to it but here's one that uses strictly moose and no healing:

[Mysterious box]

20 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I think the lack of consistency is in fact on purpose.

i also believe you’re not intended to be able to get off your “max dps” unless you are tanking, which is moose’s specialty. 
 

i think you’re looking at it too much from the player perspective (which makes sensr) but sometimes abilities are designed to restrict you. The smash on third attack basically means that if you’re kiting you dont get your max dps. Because you only get to smash once per cycle at most, but sometimes you dont get to at all. 
 

thats good game design, even if it’s frustrating

The only issue I have with this is hitstun resets your punch combo.

[flamboyant wolf]

I like it the way it is right now. 

[MadMatt]

It really just needs to not reset on getting hit. Makes the AoE near useless in any situation it'd be useful and goes against the seeming "incentive" for tanking. 

[chirsg]

30 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

 

See easy peasy with the standard wall cheese! Was playing terrible too haha but aye ole' 3 punch moose works wonders atm with a tanking playstyle. 

No need to change it. Ofc i wasn't playing strictly moose but that would be dumb for alot of boss fights. You do need to woodie form occasionally for pan flute/healing salves which is where the skill comes in.

(dunno why no audio but meh..)

So you didn't tank the whole way through. 

So my point was proven. Well done winning the fight, but that only proves me right. 

I've fought dragonfly as pure moose and I had to dodge. 

Even more so when considering enraged. Enraged cannot be tanked.

[Wonz]

12 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

It really just needs to not reset on getting hit. Makes the AoE near useless in any situation it'd be useful and goes against the seeming "incentive" for tanking. 

Oh i didn't notice it resets on getting hit. I don't like tanking to begin with but it's worse than I thought.

[Gashzer]

7 minutes ago, chirsg said:

So you didn't tank the whole way through. 

So my point was proven. Well done winning the fight, but that only proves me right. 

I've fought dragonfly as pure moose and I had to dodge. 

Even more so when considering enraged. Enraged cannot be tanked.

But i did tank the entire time when i was the moose form. Woodie is very strong and easy to use now for boss fights cause of his tanky moose form. And the moose is even more OP in team-play.

I really dont think Klei intends people to religiously stay in moose form for the entirety of fights... and its dumb to do so. What i displayed was a realistic dfly fight using the moose that anyone in a pub game can easily replicate during first autumn. I wasn't even gonna kill dfly in that world until i had to prove you wrong but it ended up being one of the least stressful autumn dfly fights ive had in a while.

Why dodge when you have no need to as moose?

Edit: final note; the 3 punch is working fine as is, dont fix what aint broken.

[chirsg]

41 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I'm confused. Wasn't the point of a higher proc rate to make weremoose's DPS more consistently high? It's not more than the current maximum DPS sure, but you would end up dealing more DPS than the current system on average. How is that not objectively a buff?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a buff. I just don't think the current mechanic is as unrewarding as you suggest.

@Gashzer beat me to it but here's one that uses strictly moose and no healing:

 

Well, there you go. But it's expensive in the sense that you need 2 whole flingos, but that's one way to do it. without flingos, it's not a boss you can simply tank, especially when you decide to fight enraged. 

10 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

But i did tank the entire time when i was the moose form. Woodie is very strong and easy to use now for boss fights cause of his tanky moose form. And the moose is even more OP in team-play.

I really dont think Klei intends people to religiously stay in moose form for the entirety of fights... and its dumb to do so. What i displayed was a realistic dfly fight using the moose that anyone in a pub game can easily replicate during first autumn. I wasn't even gonna kill dfly in that world until i had to prove you wrong but it ended up being one of the least stressful autumn dfly fights ive had in a while.

Why dodge when you have no need to as moose?

Edit: final note; the 3 punch is working fine as is, dont fix what aint broken.

 A lot of healing in the salves offers a lot of grace for being hit, no matter which character you play.

I'm actually worse at the fight with wolfgang for no reason and I don't know why.
I get hit the least as wigfrid ironically.

There is a kite pattern with max moose. I don't think it's stupid and the dps loss is hyper negligible considering getting hit mid string resets you to doing the first hit.

I try to do dragonfly kills as early as possible to get me into the ruins without the risk of being there during winter.

At some point, figuring out the kite pattern can be more valuable than overprepping and having a late ruins, which for me results in a late chess trio fight.

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Wonz said:

Good game design is intereactive can you really say you're playing more by just holding F instead of holding F and walking away after few hits to avoid enemy attacks? The stronger the boss the least likely it is you can win by tanking. It's opposite of how it should be. With moose's upgrades there were topics about how strong woodie is in combat from the very start later agreeing it's tough job to make him slowly grow in power as he progresses. The strength of the perk shouldn't scale down as you progress(You'll eventually be unable to win by tanking and be not very different from standard moose) I don't see how it can scale up but I see it can be at least linear. I'm not saying tanking shouldn't be an option but why encourage it discouraging the playstyle where you actually put effort and pay attention to boss and dodge

Moose is a near free transformation. It makes sense for him to have a restriction that reduces his effectiveness against more advanced bosses.

saying that “game design is interactive” doesnt mean much in this context, your options are to dodge and miss out on some dps, or to facetank, and watch your health, and get higher dps, at the cost of potentially having to detransform to heal if it gets too dangerous. Sounds pretty “interactive” to me.

You wouldnt want moose taking out CC with ease, you want the player to struggle, and you CAN beat cc with moose, you just have to employ a little thing called “strategy” 

maybe detransform to heal, maybe dodge more even if the dps is lower, maybe eat a jellybean before trandforming so that at least temporarily you can facetank some of the less dangerous attacks, while dodging the more lethal ones. 
 

moose is not, and SHOULD not be, a solve all for combat problems, i honestly already think he’s a little tougher than he ought to be for a basically free transformation.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

The only issue I have with this is hitstun resets your punch combo.

fair. I have nothing to counter that