My Concerns about the Beta: The Design of Future Content

[Juny Pear]

This will be a pretty long post, so my thoughts will be segmented into different sections, all of which collapsed in a spoiler tag. Feel free to skip sections that you think to have a fairly good understanding of, but keep in mind that they still factor into the bigger picture I am trying to adress.
Also, this post will primarily be about the design philosophy that I see behind a lot of the new mechanis and decisions within the beta, NOT about individual items, mobs, tuning values, etc.

Alright, first things first:

The journey towards the new Content

Spoiler

Before anyone can interact with the content, players need to meet certain requirements first, namely beating the Celestial Champion.
In order to do that, one needs to:

• Explore the ocean for the Lunar Island and assembling the Celestial Altar found there.
• Go to the Crabby Hermit's island and reach a high enough level of trust with her to receive her Pearl.
  • Explore the ocean for Crab King and beat him with the Pearl inserted for his Celestial Tribute.
  • Assemble the Celestial Tribute on the Lunar Island.
• Explore the caves for the Ruins and craft/find a Star Caller's Staff as well as a Deconstruction Staff.
  • Put the Star Caller's Staff into the Moon Stone and successfully complete the Moon Stone Event to get a Moon Caller's Staff.
  • Explore the caves further to find the Lunar Grotto and Archives.
  • Deconstruct the Moon Caller's staff so you can insert the Iridescent Gem in the Archives to power them.
  • Find and complete the puzzle there to get the crafting recipe for the Astral Projector.
  • Return to the surface and use the Astral Projector to locate the last two pieces of the Celestial Sanctum.
  • Assemble the Celestial Sanctum on the Lunar Island. With this step completed the Moonstorm will be active.
• Investigate the Moonstorm and locate the Cryptic Founder.
  • Help defend him against Mutant Birds trying to stop his experiment.
    • Repeat the last step 3 times. (In other words, do it 4 times in total.)
  • Collect the materials needed to build and upgrade the Lunar Siphonator.
• Now you can fight the Celestial Champion.

After going all of these steps, you are able to access the new content. Or rather it will be able to access you. Of course this won't be the only things players will be doing within their worlds (Keep this in mind for later), but with this much needed work it's pretty clear to me that the new content is intended to be for more experienced players that know the game enough to reach this point and play further.

So, it's not too shocking that the content that does await them puts up quite a fight. What is all the more shocking though is exactly how that fight is being put up.

Rifts invading the World
 

Spoiler

After having gone through the steps to summon and fight the Celestial Champion, Rifts will form over time to invade the world and spawn creatures which cause havoc within the greenery players put down by infesting them with a plant called the "Brightshade".

Now, mechanics where mobs will make the lives of players harder are nothing new to the game and, though many have varying tolerance of their impact on players' playstyles, are thus not surprising in and of themselves. What is surprising however is just how abundant these Brightshades are, with wave after wave of them continuuosly spewing forth from rifts.
They can easily infest a large quantity of a plants which are commonly found inside bases, turning said plantlife into a threat as they latch onto them.

From there it becomes very difficult to rid of them without damages to fencing or walls that are around, which by that point in the game are common buildings to be placed near plant farms. Not all will have an issue with this seeing as walls are mostly decoratively used nowadays anyway, however it can still feel quite disheartening to have invested work be undone by something you do not have any fault in. Not to mention that they will be ferociously attacking players with powerful attacks, though I will go into more detail on this in the next section.

With all other mobs coming to hound players, they will be given ample time to react and move to a safer location, provided there isn't a way to prevent or even lessen the invasion in the first place (See hamlet's vampire bats for an example of this particular point). But when it comes to Brightshades, at most you will just know that they will come without much in ways of protecting yourself against them.

The obvious thought would now probably be to just weed them out in order to defend yourself and your plants, however there is quite a big problem in that. The mechanic these new plants introduce is a major hinderance to you getting rid of them, which seems innocuous at first, but in my eyes might very well be a mechanic that will impact future updates in a very negative way in terms of progression.

Planar Damage and Defense, existing combat and Progression
 

Spoiler

For a long time many people including myself have found the combat within dst to be fairly underwhelming. Highlights were usually bossfights or mobs with unique mechanics, but the things a player actually does within those encounters stayed mostly the same.
The same few armours, weapons, same movement, all of those things remained largely untouched, with promising weapon candidates often times having glaring issues like being restricted to single characters or relying on mechanics that are extremely niche just to be within the same realm as preexisting weapons. Granted expecting combat to be super dynamic is a bit much in my eyes, but more variety could definitely help the process not feel too repetetive and stale, especially as part of the game's progression.

However with this recent beta, the underlying mechanics seem to actually be a detriment to what I have just described. The newly added mechanics of Planar Damage and Planar Defense are not only clearly segmenting the game's progression into two distinct phases, they also strip players of a lot of options that used to be reliable in most situations. This is, in my opinion, the worst mechanic introduced to dst and it will negatively shape future updates should this be focused on more.

Without going into too many technical details, the way these two mechanics work is that Planar Damage is an additional damage value which will pierce armour but won't be affected by damage modifiers, while Planar Defense provides a flat damage reduction to Planar Damage if applied to a player and a very complex reduction to REGULAR damage if applied to a mob which will reduce the damage done exponentially to how much damage will be done in a single attack, BUT any PLANAR DAMAGE dealt will pierce through the Planar Defense of a mob.

Not only is this system weirdly convoluted for dst design, but it also feels very unintuitive in my opinion. A mob taking different damage from different sources in itself isn't too outlandish for video games, but having mobs take piercing damage and reducing regular damage, with neither of these things being communicated to the player very quickly ends up feeling overwhelmingly difficult to parse, especially on side of the damage dealt to players through armour. All of a sudden your existing weapons will feel very ineffective against newer mobs and your existing armours will literally fail at protecting you because of this new damage type, while the only options that ARE effective are newly introduced items.

If these mechanics will be applied to future content then this, in my eyes, destroys the opportunities i saw for dst combat to have more variety in options. Progression is now segmented into content where every option we have is as effective as it is and content where preexisting options are artificially ineffective, with only the new stuff being a counter to this.
Instead of leaving room for nifty tactics or something else to spice up fights that have become mundane to many people, there will now be a cut off point where unless you use the specific set of tools given to you from that cut off point forward, your previously reliable weaponry and armour are now almost worthless because of a system that is difficult to learn and grasp without external sources and feels, at least in my opinion, like a glaringly cheap way to make new content feel threatening without bumping up numbers alone.

And I hate to see it that way. I feel bad for seeing this seemingly fundamental mechanic as cheap and unfun, as well as saying this considering that clearly a lot of effort went into this update.

Final thoughts

 

Spoiler

I know myself that I am fairly biased on a lot of things. I have preferences not just in this game but for a lot of games in how i play and how the game lets me play, and I have in the past spoken about what I like within the game, what I don't like and how I think it could be improved. But I also have a tolerance on design decisions i dont agree with and I try to give the benefit of the doubt for things, especially since what I may or may not like isn't necessarily the same as for other people.

Sadly though, this beta update feels like everything I personally have not wanted in the game, from mobs that are too aggressive in their invasiveness, to arbitrary progression cutoffs, to unintuitive mechanics, to lengthy requirements to even reach the content. It feels like an absolute shame to me to be this negative about it when in terms of visuals, animation, sound design, etc. there has clearly been a lot of effort put into everything. On those fronts they knocked it out of the park, but all of that seems secondary to what I personally consider an actively bad direction for future updates to go in.

And either way, whether mechanics are removed or changed or stay the same, there would need to be a lot done in order for this update to feel like an exciting new step instead of a daunting slog that is yet to come, not to mention that this would also mean biting the bullet and rolling with what's here for future content and/or undoing a lot of work that no doubt someone has put their all into.

Regardless of what is to come, it feels frustrating to think about how to provide feedback, because on one hand I would like to provide something of value to help improve things, but on the other I know that it must feel awful to be given feedback that says the issues are so fundamental things need to be redesigned entirely, much less by a person that knows themselves they just don't like a lot of this approach in the first place.

That being said though it doesn't change how I feel about it all. I genuinely think that the planar mechanics should at the very least get redesigned to make their impact feel less binary, if not replaced with another mechanic alltogether. Which, I'm very well aware of how much this stings when this was probably worked on for months, but as of right now I am just not optimistic when considering that this is the beginning of an update line.

 

[PetulantPansy]

Good analysis. I don't quite have the same thoughts on planar defense/damage.

Isn't the gist of the idea to introduce stronger mobs/weapons as you progress through the game? And I guess that's why they lock it behind finishing cc so you don't get put against with a stronger mob against your will early on.

If for example, they introduced more new late game mobs with planar defense/damage mechanics, that would actually make the new content more compelling? I see it more as a way to "expand" the constant without adding another server shard. 

I think they're basically making cc at least a "level 1 boss" and after you "beat" level 1, we'll eventually get "level 2" mobs/bosses. 

I unfortunately have the opposite reaction (to yours regarding planar damage/defense) if they committed to going down this path

[Copyafriend]

54 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Good analysis. I don't quite have the same thoughts on planar defense/damage.

Isn't the gist of the idea to introduce stronger mobs/weapons as you progress through the game? And I guess that's why they lock it behind finishing cc so you don't get put against with a stronger mob against your will early on.

If for example, they introduced more new late game mobs with planar defense/damage mechanics, that would actually make the new content more compelling? I see it more as a way to "expand" the constant without adding another server shard. 

I think they're basically making cc at least a "level 1 boss" and after you "beat" level 1, we'll eventually get "level 2" mobs/bosses. 

I unfortunately have the opposite reaction (to yours regarding planar damage/defense) if they committed to going down this path

I think part of the problem is definitely that It's not really making cc a "level 1 boss", cc is the current FINAL boss, and the actual equipment you can recieve after cc is... literally only as good as the next option. while your current equipment is only bad against the new enemies. it basically says "ONLY use this sword, and this armor" after an ENTIRE GAMES WORTH of content inwhich you're allowed to use any weapon you want, its frustrating and weird for no reason

[PetulantPansy]

55 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I think part of the problem is definitely that It's not really making cc a "level 1 boss", cc is the current FINAL boss, and the actual equipment you can recieve after cc is... literally only as good as the next option. while your current equipment is only bad against the new enemies. it basically says "ONLY use this sword, and this armor" after an ENTIRE GAMES WORTH of content inwhich you're allowed to use any weapon you want, its frustrating and weird for no reason

right, i know what you mean. I made a similar post where I don't really see why anyone will want to interact with the new content as-is.

However, I'm saying if in the future they add 10 or 20 more mobs with planar damage/defense, this content suddenly becomes more relevant. I don't find it that weird in a hypothetical world where we get an entirely new set of weapons and armor for an entirely new set of mobs. Call it, the "level 2" mobs/bosses

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

while your current equipment is only bad against the new enemies. 

that's game progression - if we get an entirely new set of mobs/bosses that is

 

1 hour ago, Copyafriend said:

it basically says "ONLY use this sword, and this armor" after an ENTIRE GAMES WORTH of content inwhich you're allowed to use any weapon you want, its frustrating and weird for no reason

they could add more of these weapons in the future. ie. "level 2" weapons/armor, of which we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg at the moment. I of course have no idea we're going this direction, but I did want to provide a counterpoint and relevant possibility. Also, the OP had an issue with the fundamental concept of planar damage/defense in which i wanted to provide a counterpoint. I don't think you stated a position in favor/not in favor of it? 

[Dextops]

16 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

that's game progression - if we get an entirely new set of mobs/bosses that is

For me I don’t feel a sense of progression because once you get these planar weapons it just plays out the same as it usually would. Instead of using a dark sword I instead use another weapon that is almost identical to it because I am forced to. It still plays out the same but now a random person who doesn’t like using the wiki will wonder why his armour and weapons aren’t effective against this new enemy type

[Yuuko]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to play the new content yet as I've been SUPER busy with other things...  I tried to not post about it until I could play it, but honestly every post I see about this patch reads like a horror story.

The new system seems to literally FORCE you to use it, which is antithetical to the entire DS / DST experience thus far.  This was a world where you weren't told to make a sword, you weren't told to go to the caves, or make this or that armor.  To suddenly be told "You need to make this weapon and fight that monster" is so contradictory to DST that I'm kinda in disbelief, like this is some April Fools joke...

Like literally this is artificial difficulty by definition.  For a game without levels and stat checks, this is the biggest and worst designed stat check they could add...

I get that people feel the combat in DST is stale.  I don't feel this way because the game already allows for creatively dealing with problems but for the "press f to win" crowd who hate "cheese" I guess their options are starting to feel really same-y.  Really the the design space is tight, the 68 damage barrier has been our cap for a LONG time...  If the idea is to build the game out a bit to make Fing combat more interesting it really should be done in a way that starts from worldgen rather than after CC is defeated.  Why not just do the standard Fire > Earth > Water > Fire, Celestial <> Shadow approach a lot of jrpg use and retrofit the entire world with these elements?  This would open the door for a lot of new items, equipment, and tools right from the start that all players can enjoy, and a concept they can explore first rather than bashing them over the head with an invasive gate-keeping mechanic once they complete the storyline.

idk, really hoping I can get some game time in with this - my opinions may change, but right now the outlook is not good.

[PetulantPansy]

52 minutes ago, Dextops said:

For me I don’t feel a sense of progression because once you get these planar weapons it just plays out the same as it usually would. Instead of using a dark sword I instead use another weapon that is almost identical to it because I am forced to. It still plays out the same but now a random person who doesn’t like using the wiki will wonder why his armour and weapons aren’t effective against this new enemy type

Agreed, because it only stands out against 1 mob right now. If there are 10 new/difficult mobs where you need planar weapons? Now it's actually needed. Again, I dont know if we'll get more of these types of mobs where such a weapon is needed, but I did want to point out the possibility. We have to start out somewhere afterall.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

 

The new system seems to literally FORCE you to use it, which is antithetical to the entire DS / DST experience thus far. 

This is too exaggerated of a take. It's not like your old weapons of choice don't work anymore, they're just not as good at dealing with new mobs. There always has, and will be more/less efficient ways to approach things in DST. This is akin to fighting dragonfly with a spear on day 300. The game doesn't force you to use a hambat or thule club to kill dragonfly, it's just that you as a player realize that it's just better to fight with something other than a spear. 

[maxwell_winters]

13 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Again, I dont know if we'll get more of these types of mobs where such a weapon is needed

In the beta notes, Klei specifically said "The first creatures to spew forth are very interested in gardening." We'll 100% get more planar mobs... in November, I guess. Considering that the next content update would probably add post-AF content and expand on pure horror. Plus, we still have 2 Core Enhancement updates this year. 

[Dextops]

44 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Agreed, because it only stands out against 1 mob right now. If there are 10 new/difficult mobs where you need planar weapons? Now it's actually needed. Again, I dont know if we'll get more of these types of mobs where such a weapon is needed, but I did want to point out the possibility. We have to start out somewhere afterall.

K but I don’t think I’m following your train of thought. The only real progression that’s happening is that you’re changing your weapon, but it still does the exact same thing as a dark sword would to a normal enemy. Even if there were 10 planar mobs I don’t think the combat is progressing or changing at all other than becoming more restrictive if they all follow this same patter these mobs have. Am I missing something because I don’t understand how this is really progression and not restrictiveness instead

[JosePapp]

Planar damage and defense should have an effect and quotes AT LEAST  so players who ain't forum dwellers or wiki junkies can actually figure out what's going on. Flat numbers are really unintuitive when you can't see any numbering without mobs.

[sudoku]

It seems like the new weapon types is just a way for them to balance mobs so they have tighter control on the difficulty.

Its easier to balance fights while only factoring in these new weapon types rather than the abundance of other weapons we also have. 

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Dextops said:

For me I don’t feel a sense of progression because once you get these planar weapons it just plays out the same as it usually would. Instead of using a dark sword I instead use another weapon that is almost identical to it because I am forced to. It still plays out the same

To be fair this is going to happen no matter what unless every new weapon does something brand new aside from just damage

 

2 hours ago, Dextops said:

but now a random person who doesn’t like using the wiki will wonder why his armour and weapons aren’t effective against this new enemy type

This definitely is a problem that could probably be solved by having the character somehow reference the issue while fighting or just having a straight out explanation in game(the ideal) but yea for now this is definitely a problem.

[sudoku]

41 minutes ago, sudoku said:

It seems like the new weapon types is just a way for them to balance mobs so they have tighter control on the difficulty.

Its easier to balance fights while only factoring in these new weapon types rather than the abundance of other weapons we also have. 

Also im gonna add that not only would they have to take into consideration every weapon in game but theyd have to additional account for whether a mob is wet (morning star), is the player using a warly buffed dish, and does the character have a damage modifier built in (wolfgang, wendy,wes,wanda).

A mighty Wolfgang using a hambat is a very different fight than a normal Wolfgang using a spiced dish and a thelucilite club or a Wilson using a tentacle spike, etc etc.

These are all multiplicative and complicates the balancing process. And when lots of players have been saying they want more difficulty in the endgame this seems like there solution to providing that in a more simplified process by largely factoring out the weapons other than the 2 new ones.

[PetulantPansy]

1 hour ago, Dextops said:

K but I don’t think I’m following your train of thought. The only real progression that’s happening is that you’re changing your weapon, but it still does the exact same thing as a dark sword would to a normal enemy. Even if there were 10 planar mobs I don’t think the combat is progressing or changing at all other than becoming more restrictive if they all follow this same patter these mobs have. Am I missing something because I don’t understand how this is really progression and not restrictiveness instead

You have more advanced enemies that are easier to fight with new gear. They may introduce an entirely new class of mobs/enemies/bosses that can be fought off *easier* with new gear. It's not just changing a weapon (that looks to be a modified version of current weapons), it would be a vast quantity of new content that can be opened up this way. It's not restrictive, it would just be more challenging content. I guess it's restrictive in that they're not easy to fight these on day 1 because you aren't properly equipped. And while the weapons might seem boring, *if* this is how it actually plays out, the new weapons are actually really well thought out from a design perspective. Ie. Items that won't make the early game, a total breeze, but items that are needed in the late game to progress further.

Of course, this is mostly hypothetical. We're only seeing just the first of probably many new updates on this. But it would be a tragedy to discourage the devs from carrying out this plan that could have so much potential just because the first phase of the rollout is lackluster (and I have to say it kind of is, but easily fixable if given enough context/teasers during the official release. Of course, I can be completely wrong and this doesnt go anywhere, but thats unlikely. Just my 2 cents though. 

[Juny Pear]

15 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

You have more advanced enemies that are easier to fight with new gear. They may introduce an entirely new class of mobs/enemies/bosses that can be fought off *easier* with new gear. It's not just changing a weapon (that looks to be a modified version of current weapons), it would be a vast quantity of new content that can be opened up this way. It's not restrictive, it would just be more challenging content. I guess it's restrictive in that they're not easy to fight these on day 1 because you aren't properly equipped. And while the weapons might seem boring, *if* this is how it actually plays out, the new weapons are actually really well thought out from a design perspective. Ie. Items that won't make the early game, a total breeze, but items that are needed in the late game to progress further.

Of course, this is mostly hypothetical. We're only seeing just the first of probably many new updates on this. But it would be a tragedy to discourage the devs from carrying out this plan that could have so much potential just because the first phase of the rollout is lackluster (and I have to say it kind of is, but easily fixable if given enough context/teasers during the official release. Of course, I can be completely wrong and this doesnt go anywhere, but thats unlikely. Just my 2 cents though. 

See, but that is where I don't really understand how it opens up more content. Sure, they could design more weapons and armour with this system in mind but I don't understand why it has to be specifically with these mechanics. I don't understand why something like the bombs couldn't have just been in the game as a regular item, and I likewise don't understand why any new stuff with potentially new perks needs to have the planar mechanic in the first place.

As I said in the main post, all this is really achieving is devaluing existing items so players have less of a choice than to use newly introduced ones that are made specifically for this issue, which goes against a lot of how dst has been designed thus far. Certain armours or weapons were better for different scenarios, but it was never the case that you were forced to use a single type of them because the enemy just made the remaining options ineffective. Not to mention that the new stuff seems very bent on trying to give players a sense of progression without giving them... actual progression. Instead of providing gear that you would legitimately want to use over all the options we have used for ten years at this point, this update provides at best sidegrades that are way more of a hassle to get for the point in the game you would obtain them and basically required for new content.

Even if they bump up the numbers though to make these items something players really want for their every day gameplay, this still puts them in a position of just being the single answer to a problem that was seemingly created for the answer to exist, which I still find horrible as a design decision. Because, to be absolutely and 100% clear here, if the intention was to make damage modifiers less effective so the new content can be more tightly designed towards a specific challenge that was envisioned (be it making new content more multiplayer centric or soft nerfing strong characters or forcing players to use new items or any combination of the three),  then that misses the entire point of even giving players a choice in any of those things. Everything that has been built up in combat over the last 10 years (even if i personally dont find it engaging mechanically) will basically mean nothing. All the weapons, the character perks, different niche items, the list goes on. All of that will be useless, in a game that wants players to experiment and to find stuff out on their own. It's been frustrating to see how a lot of items in the game have been basically left and forgotten in a state that many feel is neither fun nor useful and for years people have wanted them improved, reworked, what have you, but if combat really does go down this route of specifically excluding older content, then that just cements that state of these items even further in my eyes as something that is mostly pointless, which I personally think is super unfortunate.

[Mike23Ua]

16 hours ago, sudoku said:

It seems like the new weapon types is just a way for them to balance mobs so they have tighter control on the difficulty.

Its easier to balance fights while only factoring in these new weapon types rather than the abundance of other weapons we also have. 

While this is True, it’s also… flawed.

I look at Planar Defense like playing Pokémon the Trading Card Game, you have several types of elements and then you have a creature that is weaker to or resistant to other elements

That is the TL:DR.

But as I said: It’s Flawed..

DST ISNT Pokémon TCG, It Isn’t even an actual RPG.. and throwing in these RPG-Like Damage Resistances throws off the nature of DST being a Sandbox game (Aka anything you can scheme up would work against them..) with these new Brightshades though- your limited to what is actually Effective Against them.

Which means well known ways of playing the game are thrown out the Window, things like hiring Pigmen, Merm, Bunnymen or Spider Followers, Things like using Abigail, Winona’s Catapults, or Walters Slingshot to deal damage, it renders anything but these handful of Brightstone weapons Ineffective.

That is not how most RPG games function, in most games you can upgrade your followers and gear to use the required element effect.

Now there are Several Ways Klei can go about fixing it- they can allow Brightshade helmets that are placed on a Spider Followers head to allow it to bypass planar defenses, Perhaps you can give your Merm, Pig or Bunny Followers Bright weapon to equip so followers aren’t rendered Ineffective. Winona & Walter can get a new type of Catapult/Slingshot Ammo, Wendy can have a Brightshade potion added to her Ectoherbology table.

My point is it seems odd to take the freedom of using the characters and skills they have & the creative freedom the player can come up with away, in favor of only being able to use these very particular set of items.

[PetulantPansy]

29 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

See, but that is where I don't really understand how it opens up more content. Sure, they could design more weapons and armour with this system in mind but I don't understand why it has to be specifically with these mechanics.

I'm sure there are other ways, but this is a great way to introduce new "more-challenging" content into the constant in the middle of a playthrough. In my opinion, this is actually pretty difficult to implement well and this looks to me at least to have the possibility of blossoming into something great.

33 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

I don't understand why something like the bombs couldn't have just been in the game as a regular item, and I likewise don't understand why any new stuff with potentially new perks needs to have the planar mechanic in the first place.

Bomb - agreed, but it's not like bombs are a must have during your first autumn. It's more that this update is focused on late game content and it wouldn't make sense to just add a bomb to the alchemy engine crafts along with the rest of the new content.

Planar mechanics - people have been asking for more challenges for at least a year. While this specific update feels like it involves more tedium than challenge, the planar mechanic is like introducing a new dimension off of which many new more challenging fights can be built upon. We can keep working on the same dimension but that gets boring. Progression equals stronger items. Would it really be better to have items that deal 100 or 150 base damage? Or just increase the hp of everything? Twins 2.0 but now they each have 15000 hp. While there are many approaches to game design, I think this is a valid way to make DST more challenging.

40 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

As I said in the main post, all this is really achieving is devaluing existing items so players have less of a choice than to use newly introduced ones that are made specifically for this issue, which goes against a lot of how dst has been designed thus far. Certain armours or weapons were better for different scenarios, but it was never the case that you were forced to use a single type of them because the enemy just made the remaining options ineffective.

I don't think devalue is the right word. Your "standard" weapons still do the same amount of damage to existing bosses/mobs. Nor are the existing weapons ineffective; they are still usable, just less effective against new enemies. But that's game progression. As you progress through a game, you ideally aren't using day 10 setups on day 1000. You still can of course, but better options are available. So again, you aren't forced to do anything; it's just that they created a challenge and also provided a solution. It doesn't mean you have to use the recommended solution.

44 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Not to mention that the new stuff seems very bent on trying to give players a sense of progression without giving them... actual progression. Instead of providing gear that you would legitimately want to use over all the options we have used for ten years at this point, this update provides at best sidegrades that are way more of a hassle to get for the point in the game you would obtain them and basically required for new content.

In it's current state, I'd agree. However, I just ask that you look at the much bigger picture. If this is the first of 5 or 10 updates in a content arc, we may actually see progression and more meaning out of these new items. Ex. I probably would have a similar reaction to when "forgotten knowledge" first came out, but after the "Return of them" arc was complete, it all made sense and it's honestly one of the best things Klei produced in the last 5 years. Right, they are sidegrades now but if they build more content off of this, I don't think they would be sidegrades anymore.

 

49 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

this still puts them in a position of just being the single answer to a problem that was seemingly created for the answer to exist, which I still find horrible as a design decision. Because, to be absolutely and 100% clear here, if the intention was to make damage modifiers less effective so the new content can be more tightly designed towards a specific challenge that was envisioned (be it making new content more multiplayer centric or soft nerfing strong characters or forcing players to use new items or any combination of the three),  then that misses the entire point of even giving players a choice in any of those things.

Well ideally once more content gets built out, it will be "one of many" choices to combat "multiple different problems". And again, people want challenges. If you got far enough to beat CC, i dont think the wig/wolfgang players would mind losing their damage multipliers to face off against some new mobs/bosses in the game. I think there are also many possibilities to add new multipliers as well if they take out some of the old ones. The possibilities here feel limitless in all honesty.

 

55 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

All the weapons, the character perks, different niche items, the list goes on. All of that will be useless, in a game that wants players to experiment and to find stuff out on their own. It's been frustrating to see how a lot of items in the game have been basically left and forgotten in a state that many feel is neither fun nor useful and for years people have wanted them improved, reworked, what have you, but if combat really does go down this route of specifically excluding older content, then that just cements that state of these items even further in my eyes as something that is mostly pointless, which I personally think is super unfortunate.

They won't be useless! It's just a new dimension where old rules are thrown out and new ones may be introduced. I'm not against having some variety in the game especially after playing for probably 500 days to beat CC.

Forgotten items - unfortunately you only have 1 hand slot, and some items will always be better than others. While they could improve some items like the Tail of 3 cats or bull kelp whip, these items just don't feel like they are particularly important to the journey klei wants to take us on. Unfortunately to open up new content, it will naturally come at the expense of older item/content; that's kind of how it naturally goes.

 

I hope I'm able to convey my thoughts well. I think your concerns are 100% valid, and I had some similar thoughts when I first learned about the beta, but if viewed in the larger context of things and comparing it to the first update in "Return of Them" (which was a very long time ago), I want to be optimistic in that there is serious potential here. I would agree with those who say the update isn't much right now. Cheers