Rocket woes

[fpx007]

1 hour ago, Farsight said:

or at least enough of one to have power, a beacon and a can opener set up.

I don't think so, because beacons are much later in tech-tree. Actually, beacons are paired with interplanetry launchers as both are researched with "High Velocity Transport". Considering the relative position in tech tree, It is totally fair to allow orbital cargos setting a target zone, or at least when under manual control.

1 hour ago, Farsight said:

For colonizing a new asteroid, it's way better to just bring the supplies along in the rocket.

And why I think they are important when landing a new planet because they are among the only 3 methods that a rocket can interact with a planet without platforms and abondoning the rocket itself. (The other 2 are rovers and trailblazers, both of which are even more limited than orbital cargos.) That is to say, even you may bring much resource, most of them needs the rocket having been landed to use. The "way better" way is actually not feasible until you build a platform and land the rocket.

Spoiler

Here I explain the reason why I don't use 2 trailblazers. I use a mid-game setup with (sugar engine, 3) + (small solid oxidizer tank, 2) + (trailblazer, 3) + (orbital cargo, 2) + (command module, 4) + (nosecone, 2). The total height is 16 which exactly matches the height limit of a sugar engine so I can't replace the cargo with another trailblazer module. This setup is early in tech-tree, easy to handle (only solid material included), and can be easily refueled at destination (range is actually doubled).

I wrote here because recently I landed the water asteriod and encountered the isuue that many packages fell into deep ocean. Luckily enough of them landed on central island so I could build a platform. But what if I'm totally unlucky next time? Thus I proposed this tweak.

 

[Farsight]

Sure, you "can" use orbital cargo when settling, but it's a crude and sometimes ineffective method.

You can't build the platform without a trailblazer landing anyway. Dropping down one more or a rover isn't a huge hurdle, and then you have the resources for the platform, which gets you access to everything on the rocket.

I just wouldn't expect any boosts to the orbital cargo system, as they seem to be working exactly as intended.

[SGT_Imalas]

On 5/21/2023 at 6:32 PM, evilcat19xx said:

is there an easy way to edit the interior rocket size?

no, there isnt. I had to transpile the method that sets the size for each interior individually

[fpx007]

5 hours ago, Farsight said:

Dropping down one more or a rover isn't a huge hurdle

Sometimes, it is, and actually it is the critical isuue, because rovers/trailblazers is taller than orbital cargo, and that makes a difference. For example, in my sugar engine setup, if the orbital cargo were replaced with another trailblazer, the total height would become 17 which exceeds height limit of 16 and thus the design becomes impossible. To settle in, another rocket is needed, which really makes it ineffective. (Besides, with this method, you can settle down to new asteriods with 1 dupe, thus the “loner” trait is active as a bonus)

Even if you hold the opinion that differs from me, that is completely fine. But I still hold the opinion that orbital cargos need a buff, whether applied as regular resource transporter or first-land helper. If they don’t deserve a buff, then it is beacons that deserve one. (Decrease beacons’ tech level to same or a similar level as orbital cargos)

Spoiler

I guess instead of a intended game design, the current state is more likely to be a technical issue. It seems they reuse the mechanic of interplanetary launchers. (When they are fired, a lot of payloads are instanty created from rocket to destination asteriod, which is technically the same as firing a lot of payloads with launchers at the rocket’s location) This technical design is suitable for launchers, but not suitable for orbital cargos because beacons are only available much laterthan them.

 

[SGT_Imalas]

On 5/25/2023 at 1:04 AM, fpx007 said:

the current state is more likely to be a technical issue

it is not, works properly, these are 30 payloads deployed from an orbital cargo module:
:

[fpx007]

2 hours ago, SGT_Imalas said:

it is not, works properly, these are 30 payloads deployed from an orbital cargo module:

I’m sorry, I didn’t make it clear. I say it a technique issue because it reuses the interplanetary launcher mechanic without modification. (And is excepted to work like this.) But it I don’t believe it should merely reuse the mechanic, instead some tweaks should done to it. So it “becomes” a techincal isuue.

Or perhaps this is a game development isuue. Rocket system was introduced far earlier than radiation system, and interplanetary launcher was added with or after radiation. Beacon was added with launchers, so devs probably forget orbital cargos are already in game and much earlier than launchers in tech tree. Thus, it makes sense to reuse the system entirely, but should have the tech level of beacons reduced.

[Prince Mandor]

On 5/24/2023 at 10:09 AM, fpx007 said:

Here I explain the reason why I don't use 2 trailblazers.

But why you use manned rocket for far exploration at all? Faraway asteroids is very inhospitable, this is their nature

Same set with two rovers, trailblazer and solo nosecone allow you to trailblaze duplicant back to starting planet just after launch and send rocket on full autopilot.

Autopilot rocket fly slow, but to same distance. Then just drop two rovers, dismantle landings for metal, explore good spot, ready everything to built rocket platform, including storage with refined metal and ladders to level, possibly dig or build basic infrastructure and only after that send real rocket with live duplicants

There are no need to risk dupes on exploration, game have rovers for it

[blakemw]

2 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

There are no need to risk dupes on exploration, game have rovers for it

And even when not using Rovers, a small petroleum engine / steam engine can bring 2x Trialblazers and a portable base in a Spacefarer Module. Drop the two dupes, build the rocket platform, land, the time the two dupes spend away from the all the comforts of the portable base is all of like 30 seconds. After mastering portable bases I find it hard to use any other strategy.

Love me a portable base.

 

[Jurij I. Gorkij]

It's funny how completely different approaches you can find in Spaced out rocketry. For me, I love designing rocket interiors and did already dozens of them.

First of all, I don't ever start rocketry with solo nosecone, always skip straight to Spacefarer module (as fact, Solo version is used only for Fueler - will show later - and non-manned rockets. Also, my first rocket is powered by Steam as I (in contrary with lot of players) find them replacable only by hydrogen rockets with liquid oxygen (end game). And in contrary with lot of players I prefer using gas module (as Steam rocket don't have height problem) instead of oxylite (in most of my rockets only 2 things get manually loaded by dupes - suits and food).

This is my steam colonizer/work team carrier, with two traiblazers and still 3 slots of space for utility (solar panels/rover/larger gas tank) - interior includes bedroom, washroom and great hall, spare 4th atmo dock and 2x2 space for utility:

Spoiler

      

Washroom is currently non-present as crew landed on new asteroid and i needed to switch pilot seat with generator.

Fridge in down left corner is filled with food, second one contains rad pills. Storage contains about 10 spare Atmo suits. Sculpting block replaced standard Aero pot as I am struggling with glass/diamonds.

Next, my research rocket. My researcher has Starry Eyes, so I've felt reduced need for morale:

Spoiler

         

Only great hall bonus is present as it is most powerful bonus. I've also included generator as i was planning to use this rocket as research/miner combo, however I've found replacement before it started to fill that role.

Third rocket is my steam lorry/miner, my most recent design, which i really like - unlimited solid capacity, self-unloading and space to be still usefull while rocket mines POI:

Spoiler

   

Because of automation, when rocket is anywhere but at home asteroid, access to conveyor chute is blocked and everything in Cargo bay is being moved inside module (So far I haven't crossed POI with solid materials of undesirable temperature, I realize there's for example ice POI, however i feel no need to visit that - I am usually mining uranium/metals).

When rocket lands on main planetoid, doors get open, cargo bay output gets disabled and sweeper performs/helps with unloading.

While rocket is mining at POI, dupe is spending his work time by producing radiation pills.

In maps I tend to play (and please tell me if it's different elsewhere) all planetoids are up to 10 hexes from main planetoid, so Steam rocket is able to reach all of them on one fuel tank (return trip not included). So I've recently came with design of refuelling rocket, pretty straightforward - solo nosecone, trailblazer module (for auto pilot) and steam engine:

Spoiler

I have two of them, one on way to different planetoid, second one dismantled just to solo nosecone and battery, so no rocket screenshot here, just interior:

Two cables from outlet, one trough power shutoff (turns on when temperature gets lower than 200 Celsius) to tepidizer. Tepidizer is connected to timer with 0.1 second on and 0.1 second off to force tepidizer to higher temperature. Second cable runs to pump and meter valve.

Gas pump leads to gas meter valve for easier manipulation, then gas valve (set to 10% as liquids/gases doesn't change state when only 10% of troughput is provided). Everything needs to be steel ofc.

BTW in my main base i didn't want to use meter valve as I wanted to be completely automated. Because of that, my pump/meter sends 100 g/s of steam trough loop which ends up back in steam chamber. Same thing can be done with this rocket.

These are designs I am currently using but in past there were more of them with different features (unlimited gas storage inside cabin - abandoned because of small range of sensor, didn't want to input oxygen forever etc.)

[fpx007]

On 5/29/2023 at 6:58 PM, Prince Mandor said:

But why you use manned rocket for far exploration at all?

 

On 5/29/2023 at 9:52 PM, blakemw said:

a small petroleum engine / steam engine

Because I want to RUSH those resource. (Nobium, Lime,etc.) The small petroleum engine is too late in tech-tree, so it isn't worth mentioning at all. Steam engine can only fly a maximum of 10 hex, which is smaller than 6*2 of a sugar engine. (You may easily bring sucrose and oxidizer in command module, which doubles the flight range. On contrary, steam is a fluid type, which is difficult to handle, no to mention that it can only be preserved in high temperature.)

At this time, I thinkmy best approach is to save my game before every cargo drop. The game don't have the ironman mode, so it is fair to save-load, just like the current status of orbital cargos/beacons, as the game currently handles them so.

[Jurij I. Gorkij]

6 hours ago, fpx007 said:

 

Because I want to RUSH those resource. (Nobium, Lime,etc.) The small petroleum engine is too late in tech-tree, so it isn't worth mentioning at all. Steam engine can only fly a maximum of 10 hex, which is smaller than 6*2 of a sugar engine. (You may easily bring sucrose and oxidizer in command module, which doubles the flight range. On contrary, steam is a fluid type, which is difficult to handle, no to mention that it can only be preserved in high temperature.)

At this time, I thinkmy best approach is to save my game before every cargo drop. The game don't have the ironman mode, so it is fair to save-load, just like the current status of orbital cargos/beacons, as the game currently handles them so.

Please take a look at my post one above yours - you can easily refuel steam rocket on site, whole trick is to have gas pump -> gas meter -> gas valve (max. 100 g/s) inside isolated hot enviroment (I am using unmanned rocket with solo nosecone for that). Gas doesn't change in solid when only 10% of pipe is full, this way are my steam rockets comonly returning with 0 °C steam in their engines.

[fpx007]

58 minutes ago, Jurij I. Gorkij said:

inside isolated hot enviroment

You mean the whole command module is hot, right? So the dupes should always wear atmosuit during the flight. And since atmosuit gets damaged when eqquiped, and steam engine is slow (due to its high base burden stat), the atmosuit probably wears out when reaching your destination, thus the dupes are exposed to heat stroke, not to mention the fact that you need to recharge oxygen during the flight. Thus, I don't think this method is suitable for the mission of building the 1st platform in a new asteriod.

[Jurij I. Gorkij]

Two steam rockets:
1) Solo nosecone with steam cooker (design in my post above), trailblazer module and steam engine. Send it first, as it will be unmanned and veery slow.
Launch to orbit of your main planetoid, drop pilot in trailblazer module back to base - voilá, you have unmanned ship which you can send to orbit to desired planetoid.

2) Nosecone, (gas module with oxygen - my preference, you can save space by storing oxylite in cabin), 2 traiblazers, spacefarer cabin, steam engine, maybe battery. Don't forget to bring additional refined metal for second rocket platform.
Go to orbit of desired planetoid, land both trailblazers, build platform, land rocket so dupes have all the comfort. Build second platform close by, land rocket with steam cooker, deconstruct engine and traiblazer, you can even deconstruct platform if you need those metals. Provide power, connect solo nosecone output to main rocket engine input, send exactly as much steam as you need.

Here's example from my current game where i am colonizing ice planetoid 8 tiles from main:

23 minutes ago, fpx007 said:

You mean the whole command module is hot, right? So the dupes should always wear atmosuit during the flight. And since atmosuit gets damaged when eqquiped, and steam engine is slow (due to its high base burden stat), the atmosuit probably wears out when reaching your destination, thus the dupes are exposed to heat stroke, not to mention the fact that you need to recharge oxygen during the flight. Thus, I don't think this method is suitable for the mission of building the 1st platform in a new asteriod.

I am using this method for colonizing all asteroids from 6-10 distance from main. I am even using it right now for mining POI very far from main planetoid.

Judging from what you wrote I think you are missing very important information - you can send rockets all around without dupe on board. So yes, whole command module is hot and pilot spent there only time to get on orbit of main planetoid and jump down in trailblazer module. 

[fpx007]

27 minutes ago, Jurij I. Gorkij said:

 

Two steam rockets

 

First, the most important part is that my discussion is on the basis of using only 1 single rocket. I don’t want to use too many. If 2 are allowed, I’d prefer 2 candy rockets, both of which have 1 trailblazer modules included. When the destination is reached, I just drop 1, dismantle it, and drop the other.

Second, these discussions seem to be OFF TOPIC. The discussion should be about whether tweaks should be made to orbital cargos/beacons, rahter than what strategy I should use. I posted my strategy merely because I use this strategy, and the current game design annoys me.

[blakemw]

7 hours ago, fpx007 said:

Because I want to RUSH those resource. (Nobium, Lime,etc.) The small petroleum engine is too late in tech-tree, so it isn't worth mentioning at all. 

Ah yes, the acquisition of niobium being a higher priority than scrounging up the 30 databanks needed to research small petroleum engine, certainly I can see why it's important to acquire niobium before embarking on such difficult tech requisites. Perhaps Klei should make it easier to acquire databanks, such as giving them as a free action when inspecting POI buildings or giving a bunch when analyzing geysers, that way the small petroleum engine could easily be researched rather early in the game, in fact before even making a rocket.

Seriously though if you're doing some weird self-imposed challenge to tackle the hardest planetoids in the game with the weakest rocket then you do you but the small petroleum engine is not remotely difficult to unlock.

 

[fpx007]

58 minutes ago, blakemw said:

30 databanks

First, the 30 databanks may seem to be a small amount, but other techs (at same level) also need them. Even if don't research other techs that require orbital research, you should also consider its preconditions. It needs 3 more techs in addition to itself, a production chain and piping system of refined oil (fueling sugar engine only needs digging some natural sucrose in wasteland and manual moving), slow study of some geysers (Scavenging POIs provides too few databanks. Using orbital data collection lab requires plastic and an already launched rocket, which makes the matter even more complex.) etc. All of these costs extra time. Since I can already do the same thing much earlier, why I need to waset time on the things that I don't actually need? Even if I need other techs, I can still choose to research them after launching my rocket.

Remember rushing is about reaching your goal within least time, so all unnecessary things should be skipped.

1 hour ago, blakemw said:

weird self-imposed challenge to tackle the hardest planetoids in the game with the weakest rocket

Second, the rocket engine provides no help other than transporting dupe(s) to and from your destination. Engines don't generate power when landed. O2 can be supplied with oxylite or algae. Power can be supplied with eternal generators and batteries. All solid resource you need can be stored in command module as debris with no restrictions in total amount. And even if you need to build taller after landing, you may simply dismantle the engine, and rebuild it before return. So what extra assistance can the most powerful engine provide after landing?

Actually, the most important tech you need to conquer even the toughest planetoid is Hazard Protection (exosuit), which is only a Tier 4 tech that requires up to advanced research, which is still 2 tiers lower than Hydrocarbon Propulsion and also 1 tier lower than Durable Life Support. Rocket techs may help, but definitely not those about engines.

(Besides, a correction to your statement: Sugar engine is not the weakest engine. It is CO2 engine.)

Last, your discussions are OFF TOPIC! The discussions should be about whether tweaks should be made to orbital cargos/beacons, rahter than what strategy I should use. I posted my strategy merely because I use this strategy, and the current game design annoys me. This is also the reason why I place them in the spoiler part.

 

[Jurij I. Gorkij]

This topic is about rocket woes, not just orbital cargo.

Sugar engine is still early game, second worst engine in game, very limited, unique usefulness (with ability to be refuelled by dupe hand). Low height (11 for modules + cabin). You are voluntarily limiting yourself to one of earliest engines.

What's more, you are further limiting youself with need to have spacefarer cabin and necessary nosecone, stealing another 3 height from the rocket (6 height contrary to solo nosecone 3, which btw. can in extreme cases support even dozens of dupes). Don't get me wrong, I totally skip Solo nosecone too, but i am not using second worst engine for my rockets.

So you have 5 height available for modules, ofc consumed by traiblazer and cargo.

When asking how to colonize at game state you are currently at (spacefarer module researched),  I see different ways how to tackle that situation:

1) As me and blakemw suggested, use another engine. Again, I use steam engine to conquer whole map. Petroleum engine is more hassle, i tend to ignore those motors too as i am able to colonize everything with steam, skipping straight to hydrogen (also ignoring radbolt engine).

2) Use ship as you do and be prepared to hope that cargo drops where you need it. If it don't, land dupe and go/built your way to it.

3) Send two same ships or one with luxurious spacefarer module and second one much simplier, both with traiblazer. Land two dupes, build platform, land rocket with spacefarer module and done.

Look, I completely understand you want to play your game your way. My issue is you are (again, my opinion) practicaly saying "I am ignoring other options I have and I want option I don't have to work." And I am trying to explain how i completely disagree and in sake of argument I am supporting it with ideas how to tackle your goal. You are centered on idea of using orbital cargo modules while I am saying you don't need them to colonize any planetoid and they are worst option.

[fpx007]

1 hour ago, Jurij I. Gorkij said:

 

This topic is about rocket woes, not just orbital cargo.

Sugar engine is still early game, second worst engine in game, very limited, unique usefulness (with ability to be refuelled by dupe hand). Low height (11 for modules + cabin). You are voluntarily limiting yourself to one of earliest engines.

What's more, you are further limiting youself with need to have spacefarer cabin and necessary nosecone, stealing another 3 height from the rocket (6 height contrary to solo nosecone 3, which btw. can in extreme cases support even dozens of dupes). Don't get me wrong, I totally skip Solo nosecone too, but i am not using second worst engine for my rockets.

So you have 5 height available for modules, ofc consumed by traiblazer and cargo.

When asking how to colonize at game state you are currently at (spacefarer module researched),  I see different ways how to tackle that situation:

1) As me and blakemw suggested, use another engine. Again, I use steam engine to conquer whole map. Petroleum engine is more hassle, i tend to ignore those motors too as i am able to colonize everything with steam, skipping straight to hydrogen (also ignoring radbolt engine).

2) Use ship as you do and be prepared to hope that cargo drops where you need it. If it don't, land dupe and go/built your way to it.

3) Send two same ships or one with luxurious spacefarer module and second one much simplier, both with traiblazer. Land two dupes, build platform, land rocket with spacefarer module and done.

Look, I completely understand you want to play your game your way. My issue is you are (again, my opinion) practicaly saying "I am ignoring other options I have and I want option I don't have to work." And I am trying to explain how i completely disagree and in sake of argument I am supporting it with ideas how to tackle your goal. You are centered on idea of using orbital cargo modules while I am saying you don't need them to colonize any planetoid and they are worst option

 

I never said my options causes woes, nor did I request assistance from you. I posted my rocket design to show that I encounter the woes from orbital cargos when trying to use them. OK, you all told me that I should not use my current option, and switch to yours. But do the woes from orbital cargos get solved if I adopt your concept? NOPE! They are still hard to use without the Tier 5 beacons. You can see, your suggestion doesn’t help how orbital cargos work, so you are off topic!

Second, ONI is a sandbox game that gives full freedom to players’ creativity. You may like to apply conservative methods, while I like to play aggressively. I never say your methods are bad/useless/etc, I just say they don’t fit my style (due to certain restrictions). But what you are saying about my option? “wierd self-imposed challenge” “worst option”, right? That is all belittling my playstyle. If you still trying to convince me my plans are bad, I believe you disrespect not only me but also ONI, this sandbox game with full freedom. Thus, you are not worthy to talk with! (And I will make no more further interaction with you.)