Because I think the redirection from aggro to maxwell should be removed

[King Maxwell]

I was a big supporter of the aggro redirection to maxwell but after dozens of hours played with the mechanic I ended up changing my mind, in 80% of the game it is not noticeable being sometimes even an advantage so I understand everyone who thinks this is everything well with her but in the 20% she is noticeable it doesn't add anything to the game and it's just frustrating, I also think she goes against the idea of encouraging maxwell to actively participate in the fight that was the mechanic's intention, in the times when it's a advantage or imperceptible it does not encourage you to participate because you barely notice it but when it is noticeable it encourages you not to participate because it is more difficult to participate than just running from the mobs while the duelists finish them so I believe it is better to remove this mechanic or review it.

[ShadowDuelist]

I think this is intended to remove aggro off the duelists, which would cause them to die much faster, and I think it works very well on that.
 

Besides the human player can use the aggro for many things, once you know the main focus of enemies will be on you. It’s also a big difference from Abigail and BERNIE! that always get all the aggro for themselves.

Overall once you get the hang of how to fight with this, you realize it’s actually a very good design (it probably should have been like this for the duelists from the start)

[Arcwell]

My understanding is that aggro redirection was added to prevent buggy AI: without redirecting to Maxwell, mobs would think they're out of combat whenever duelists phase.
Source:

I personally think it's not too problematic since shadow prison exists, and it's an interesting limitation to play around.

[ShadowDuelist]

13 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I personally think it's not too problematic since shadow prison exists, and it's an interesting limitation to play around

It can also be combined with pre-casted shadow sneak, and Maxwell himself can also make use of other things to tank for him, if you want to play full caster. 

 

Spoiler

EG: yesterday while ruins cleaning I got to take 2 rock lobsters with me, and since as soon as they take enough damage they become almost immortal in their hiding stance, my duelists managed to deal a bunch of damage, redirect their aggro off the lobster to me, then the lobsters would stand up again and get aggro once more, and so on. It worked like a charm.

 

[SullyD]

If only there was a way for small and medium mobs to get aggro on puppets it would be good. The aggro became very strange and inconvenient and it is still possible to take free hits, since Maxwell is limited to use night armor it is very easy to lose durability and farm reeds is very annoying unless you have the setpiece in the world.

 

36 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

My understanding is that aggro redirection was added to prevent buggy AI: without redirecting to Maxwell, mobs would think they're out of combat whenever duelists phase.
Source:

 

This really happened but it was not problematic for me. When an enemy is out of combat and is attacked by a duelist, he goes back into combat, so I don't really understand this "bug".

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, SullyD said:

since Maxwell is limited to use night armor

(?)

[King Maxwell]

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Overall once you get the hang of how to fight with this, you realize it’s actually a very good design (it probably should have been like this for the duelists from the start)

For most of the game yes and that's why I was a big supporter of aggro redirection for a long time but in some situations I just find it unnecessarily frustrating, it doesn't need a complete removal, a review would be great, I think just taking the redirect out of dash atk it would be best to keep redirection when shadows are attacked.

[Gi-Go]

It shouldn't be removed. I think it's a creative and well designed nerf. It makes other spells relevant. 

[SullyD]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

It shouldn't be removed. I think it's a creative and well designed nerf. It makes other spells relevant. 

Well, I hope you start a new world playing Maxwell solo. People will only know after a few days, except the haters who will just make shared inventory and never play Max again in their lives.

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, SullyD said:

Well, I hope you start a new world playing Maxwell solo. People will only know after a few days, except the haters who will just make shared inventory and never play Max again in their lives.

Sorry, I didn't understand anything you said. 

[SullyD]

13 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Sorry, I didn't understand anything you said. 

Try again

[Gi-Go]

Just now, SullyD said:

Try again

 

1 hour ago, SullyD said:

Well, I hope you start a new world playing Maxwell solo. People will only know after a few days, except the haters who will just make shared inventory and never play Max again in their lives.

You are hoping I'll start a new world playing Maxwell solo? Why? What do you mean???

People will only know after a few days? Know what???

I'm so confused.... 

[King Maxwell]

2 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

It shouldn't be removed. I think it's a creative and well designed nerf. It makes other spells relevant. 

But then, it's not a nerf, in fact it's practically imperceptible in most of the game and against all bosses it's an advantage there are only a few situations that it's unpleasant to use, basically when you hit a spider near a nest you didn't intend to hit, when you hit a piece near a bishop out of the line of sight and in a case that happened to me when you are using it for something else, it starts to rain frog and suddenly you are swamped by frogs, maybe other circumstances I didn't go through to try.
And in these cases with the exception of the bishop the easiest thing is for you to just not get involved in combat and run around the mobs since the aggro of all mobs will be redirected to you often and they keep running after you which goes against all changes so far to make maxwell more participatory.

It can be creative but as this one is not well designed, removing the aggro redirection from the dash atk but keeping it when shadows disappear from being hit would be much more interesting as the aggro redirection in these cases would not be from all nearby creatures.

[Gi-Go]

Just now, King Maxwell said:

But then, it's not a nerf, in fact it's practically imperceptible in most of the game and against all bosses it's an advantage there are only a few situations that it's unpleasant to use, basically when you hit a spider near a nest you didn't intend to hit, when you hit a piece near a bishop out of the line of sight and in a case that happened to me when you are using it for something else, it starts to rain frog and suddenly you are swamped by frogs, maybe other circumstances I didn't go through to try.
And in these cases with the exception of the bishop the easiest thing is for you to just not get involved in combat and run around the mobs since the aggro of all mobs will be redirected to you often and they keep running after you which goes against all changes so far to make maxwell more participatory.

It can be creative but as this one is not well designed, removing the aggro redirection from the dash atk but keeping it when shadows disappear from being hit would be much more interesting as the aggro redirection in these cases would not be from all nearby creatures.

Yeah, I played beta too I know about annoying scenarios. 

Here is my suggestion: don't use clones on spiders, bees, frogs and anything else Abigail excels at. Clones are not Abigail. Use cage instead. 

For bishops use sneak and if that's not working - write a post about this spell still needing buffs. 

 

[SullyD]

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Yeah, I played beta too I know about annoying scenarios. 

Here is my suggestion: don't use clones on spiders, bees, frogs and anything else Abigail excels at. Clones are not Abigail. Use cage instead. 

For bishops use sneak and if that's not working - write a post about this spell still needing buffs. 

 

Basically the character cannot use his own power to avoid dozens of mobs... Do you see how this doesn't make sense?

[Gi-Go]

5 minutes ago, SullyD said:

Basically the character cannot use his own power to avoid dozens of mobs... Do you see how this doesn't make sense?

Hello? Cage spell???

[SullyD]

2 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Hello? Cage spell???

So you can just drop a cage spell in the middle of the frog rain? Or when a shadow hits a bee and they come from all directions. It seems that this cage is the solution to everything. Kappa

[Gi-Go]

7 minutes ago, SullyD said:

So you can just drop a cage spell in the middle of the frog rain? 

Yes. 

[King Maxwell]

38 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Yeah, I played beta too I know about annoying scenarios. 

Here is my suggestion: don't use clones on spiders, bees, frogs and anything else Abigail excels at. Clones are not Abigail. Use cage instead. 

For bishops use sneak and if that's not working - write a post about this spell still needing buffs. 

 

Even with this change the duelists wouldn't even come close to overshadowing Abigail, in fact they would change very little as they die fast to hordes of mobs, it just wouldn't be unnecessarily frustrating.
Before the rework a big complaint was the lack of control of minions that ended up cutting / mining something you didn't want, now duelists can bring a horde of mobs you wouldn't want simply because a spider passed or it started raining frogs.
There's no reason not to remove the damage redirection from dash atk would just improve the overall gameplay experience without affecting the character's mechanics.

[Gi-Go]

5 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

Even with this change the duelists wouldn't even come close to overshadowing Abigail.

Noone disagrees on that. I just reminded you that duelists are not Abigail and never were. So stop trying to kill 100 hp mobs using duelists. Use cage 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

the question is what they can add to wendy and abi to be able to fight bosses that she cant tank or how can abi help wendy to harvest 1000 logs and grass

[King Maxwell]

11 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the question is what they can add to wendy and abi to be able to fight bosses that she cant tank or how can abi help wendy to harvest 1000 logs and grass

I'm not comparing it with Abigail, I just mentioned it because she was mentioned before, I'm against using comparative arguments between characters because I think it doesn't add to the discussion, it's just hitting scarecrows.

22 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Noone disagrees on that. I just reminded you that duelists are not Abigail and never were. So stop trying to kill 100 hp mobs using duelists. Use cage 

I don't want duelists to kill 100 hp mobs because at 75 hp they die quickly to them and I can still use them to kill, I just run around the mobs but is it a nice interaction? For me at least not but currently the mechanic encourages this interaction.
My point is: This is an unnecessary inconvenience and removing it will not change the general mechanics as the aggro redirect will still exist just not in the dash atk.
I don't know if you really don't understand or if you're just pretending to be misunderstood.

[SullyD]

12 minutes ago, King Maxwell said:

I'm not comparing it with Abigail, I just mentioned it because she was mentioned before, I'm against using comparative arguments between characters because I think it doesn't add to the discussion, it's just hitting scarecrows.

I don't want duelists to kill 100 hp mobs because at 75 hp they die quickly to them and I can still use them to kill, I just run around the mobs but is it a nice interaction? For me at least not but currently the mechanic encourages this interaction.
My point is: This is an unnecessary inconvenience and removing it will not change the general mechanics as the aggro redirect will still exist just not in the dash atk.
I don't know if you really don't understand or if you're just pretending to be misunderstood.

Because these people have never played with it, and if they played in the beta it was not enough, if they try one day they will realize that many situations are inconvenient.

For example, only those who played wendy back in the day know how frustrating abigail was because she attacked everything even when the player didn't want to.
 

[Mr Giggio]

1 hour ago, SullyD said:

So you can just drop a cage spell in the middle of the frog rain?

Actually you can

For someone who keep saying people dont play or know Maxwell enough u r missing a few things

[SullyD]

7 minutes ago, MrSoratori said:

Actually you can

For someone who keep saying people dont play or know Maxwell enough u r missing a few things

So here I introduce you to "sarcasm".
By the way try there, cast spell being the target of dozens of frogs.