A quick fix for the Werebeaver

[Baffoh]

Good ol' Woodie, I have played him quite a bit, both when I was a fresh install and after I got a bit of experience with the game, I like playing as him but I feel like there isn't that much reason to play him over other character, unless you really like being committed to his playstyle, and while I do think that his kit overall needs a bit of a refresh, I wanted to take a look at one of his most under-used perk: the Werebeaver!

Now, one of the major turnaways to using this form of Woodie is Lucy of course, unlike when using Lucy the Werebeaver carries the downside of starving to death when the transformation ends and not being able to do many actions while transformed, one of these action in particular outclasses the Werebeaver a lot when compared to Lucy, which is: being able to pick up the logs that you harvested of course! This means that not only will you have to suffer from the downsides from using the Werebeaver in the first place, but you'll also have to spend time picking up the loot that is left after all that choppin'!

So here's my solution to this problem: bring back the mechanic of eating logs!

Now you may think "Wait that was another downside of the Werebeaver, how is it supposed to help?"

Well with a bit of overhaluing this mechanic might be just what we need to make the Werebeaver a better candidate for chopping!

Here's how the new eating wood mechanic would work:

By clicking on a log (or anything that the Werebeaver can gather) that is on the ground while in Werebeaver form you'll eat any log or pinecone that's in a small area in front of the Werebeaver, the stuff that you gather as a Werebeaver will be going towards a separate inventory from Woodie's, once your transform back to your human form, everything you gathered as a Werebeaver will be neatly stacked on the ground, this way you can run back to your camp or chest zone to deposit everything you gathered fast and easily, all while not having to carry all this stuff on your main inventory.

Now as for the what the Werebeaver would be able to gather, we'll use the same stuff that was used to fill the log meter previously!

With some addition of course, like birchnuts, palmcones scales, palmcones seeds and twiggy tree's seeds!

Tell me what you think about this idea of course, for example should the Werebeaver's inventory be infinite or should it be capped at some point? Feel free also to suggest any changes, for now I'm done here and thanks for viewing this suggestion!

[NoodlemanNed]

something that i think would be cool is if the beaver could pick 5 items every time he "eats" them,t hat way woodie has an actual advantage for wood gathering rather than just being put on par with any character using pigs to chop. It would also help woodie compete with the lazer forager which he also cant use as a beaver.

[Spirit Glow]

i think he's in a fine spot. a good all-around character

[W0l0l0]

I suggested a very similar version of this a while back.

Except perhaps very early game, beaver really isn't worth the health, vulnerability, and hunger cost. They just don't do anything that can't be accomplished by normal Wilson, not to mention faster late game methods such as Bearger, which no cutting speed buff can fix.

[MadMatt]

Woodie vomits timber update???
 

Jokes aside this is a good compromise for allowing Beaver to pick wood up. It just doesn't sit right with me though for some reason... it seems too goofy? But that's just me, it's great otherwise  

[Baffoh]

20 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Woodie vomits timber update???
 

Jokes aside this is a good compromise for allowing Beaver to pick wood up. It just doesn't sit right with me though for some reason... it seems too goofy? But that's just me, it's great otherwise  

Yeah you are spot on, that's the main reason on why I've been thinking for a lot of time about making this suggestion to be honest, gameplay wise I think it would fit perfectly but on the other hand I can see how it can be troubling as a feature for some people.

[Yuuko]

idk - You have to pick up the wood whether you're using lucy or wearbeaver, the difference is werebeaver focuses on chopping it all first and coming back to pick it up after.  You're not really losing time here, also with the incoming change lettings us refuel a lazy gatherer I'm not too keen on investing dev time or interest in an overlapping perk that couldn't compete with it anyway...

I do think Woodie's kit has a bit of anti-synergy in it though.  What are his perks?  He gets a bonus to hiring pigs.  In human form he has a higher chance to spawn tree guards, and pigs are notoriously bad at fighting them...  Meanwhile swapping to werebeaver has the "perk" of not spawning treeguards, but late game we usually *want* the treeguards b/c living logs...

I think a better QOL would be to swap his perks.  Make it so in human form he has an aura that prevents treeguards from spawning.  This way he can hire pigs and clear a forest in human form early game to get a good stockpile of lumber going.  Then make werebeaver more likely to spawn tree guards, like a LOT more, but give werebeaver back its damage bonus against trees.  This means late game you wanna swap to the beaver to farm living logs, which is something people will actually want to do.

4 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

not to mention faster late game methods such as Bearger, which no cutting speed buff can fix.

btw - how is this for farming living logs?  I don't seem to get any tree guards to spawn when I run him through a line of trees.

[MadMatt]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

but give werebeaver back its damage bonus against trees.

Was there a secret update to DST where they took away his extra damage??? He still has extra damage against treeguards(44~), it's just complete **** since Moose does more DPS. 

Also gotta give a hard disagree on swapping the perks. The eating logs change IS beneficial since there is a non-insignificant amount of time (20+ seconds) where you're doing nothing in Beaver form waiting to go back to Woodie so you can actually do something with those logs on the ground. It wouldn't be a QoL update to switch them, it would massively impact Woodie gameplay since you no longer can actively get more living logs early on without dipping into idols, and would heavily encourage using Beaver all the time afterwards. I don't like the implications of turning Beaver into a treeguard farmer rather than a log farmer, Woodie getting extra time with certain followers is such a niche aspect of his kit anyways. There's no point to balancing around that when his forms are what makes and breaks him, not an extra minute or two of slave labor.

[Riddla]

I still feel like all wereforms should just let you wear amulets, would be a very simple but significant buff if you could use a lazy forager as werebeaver.

As an extra QoL though, I wish werebeaver's chopping would also uproot a stump instantly at the same time after you destroy a tree, maybe also let him instantly start moving to the next tree when you hold space, sort of like how auto-targetting got buffed to be pretty much instant in combat.

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, MadMatt said:

Was there a secret update to DST where they took away his extra damage??? He still has extra damage against treeguards(44~), it's just complete **** since Moose does more DPS. 

Also gotta give a hard disagree on swapping the perks. The eating logs change IS beneficial since there is a non-insignificant amount of time (20+ seconds) where you're doing nothing in Beaver form waiting to go back to Woodie so you can actually do something with those logs on the ground. It wouldn't be a QoL update to switch them, it would massively impact Woodie gameplay since you no longer can actively get more living logs early on without dipping into idols, and would heavily encourage using Beaver all the time afterwards. I don't like the implications of turning Beaver into a treeguard farmer rather than a log farmer, Woodie getting extra time with certain followers is such a niche aspect of his kit anyways. There's no point to balancing around that when his forms are what makes and breaks him, not an extra minute or two of slave labor.

I didn't test - the damage could still be there, but regardless it should be buffed and being a living long farmer should be the werebeaver's role.

Kinda funny your complaint about this is that people would actually have to use the transformation lol imo that sounds like an indicator this is the right change to make.  Also the pig thing is niche mostly because using pigs to chop is niche, but that doesn't mean it isn't also a case of anti-synergy.  Being able to hire pigs to chop trees when you're more likely to spawn tree guards is anti-synergy as the pigs will most likely die far before any bonus hiring time is realized.  Similarly giving him a damage boost against tree guards in a form which explicitly does NOT spawn them is pretty worthless.  If we swap those aspects then his kit gets some actual cohesion.

As for "then people have to make his idols" um... is that a problem?  They are pretty cheap, no longer suffer spoilage, and they stack.  There is literally zero reason to consider "having to use idols" as a problem.

[MadMatt]

7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Kinda funny your complaint about this is that people would actually have to use the transformation lol imo that sounds like an indicator this is the right change to make.

As for "then people have to make his idols" um... is that a problem?  They are pretty cheap, no longer suffer spoilage, and they stack.  There is literally zero reason to consider "having to use idols" as a problem.

The issue is that it completely changes the point of Beaver, and again the balance rather than "QoL". It's a hugely disproportional buff to solve a problem that really doesn't exist, atleast to Beaver specifically. With this change Beaver and Beaver alone would have viability throughout the entire game while Goose and Moose cannot offer anything that can be crafted. In fact with Woodie being unable to spawn treeguards Beaver becomes a NECESSITY unless you rely on mobs to spawn them. 

Also I consider having to use idols early an issue because I believe that Woodie shouldn't have to transform at any point of the game, disregarding using mobs to spawn them, this change would force Woodie to use a Beaver idol to gather living logs once TNT's have been depleted.

It's not that I think the suggestion is objectively bad, but it's a drastic change to a character that is widely considered to be in a good place, just needing slight adjustments to feel better to play throughout the course of the game. The one thing I do agree with is buffing Beaver's extra damage against trees though lol

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, MadMatt said:

The issue is that it changes the point of Beaver, and the balance rather than "QoL". It's a hugely disproportional buff to solve that doesn't exist, atleast to Beaver specifically. With this change Beaver and Beaver alone would have viability throughout the entire game while Goose and Moose cannot offer anything that can be crafted. In with Woodie being unable to spawn treeguards Beaver becomes a NECESSITY unless you rely on mobs to spawn them. 

Also I consider having to use idols early an issue because I believe that Woodie shouldn't have to transform at any point of the game, disregarding using mobs to spawn them, this change would force Woodie to use a Beaver idol to gather living logs once TNT's have been depleted.

It's not that I think the suggestion is objectively bad, but it's a drastic change to that is widely considered to be in a good place, just needing slight adjustments to feel better to play throughout the course of the game. The one thing I do agree with is buffing Beaver's extra damage against trees though lol

tbh this sounds like a lot of "I don't like this b/c then I'd have to use his powers."  Isn't using his powers the point?  Sure, he's not a bad character right now, but if we're going to change something - shouldn't we look at the best change possible?  Picking up logs in beaver is very low tier results, and its thematically inconsistent that "eating" a log just gathers it...  It seems entirely too contrived.  You want to pick up logs and hook in beaver b/c ???  I don't see the connection.  What I suggest is more thematic, and gives the player more choices and room for player expression.  I think knowing Woodie can eat an idol to specifically provoke tree guards at a significantly higher rate is a good thing, and giving players a space where hiring pigs might actually be beneficial is also good.  It gives Woodie more "woodie things" he can do.

Also if all the forms are bad, doesn't that mean we just need to improve them too?  Why is goose bad?  I don't think goose is actually bad, but why not look at what can improve it?  Ideally all of his forms should be useful, if they aren't then that is room for improvement.  It sounds exactly backwards that you'd take a position that everything his powers do should be able to be replicated and accessible without using his powers...  Is Wanda expected to play without using her clocks?  Should Wolfgang fight as well in wimpy form as he does in mighty?  Can any of Wicker's books be replicated with other items?  Then why is it bad for Woodie to actually have forms that are worth changing to?

(also anyone can always get living logs by killing mushnomes in the lunar grotto.  tbh I don't even chop trees for living logs very often anymore)

[MadMatt]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

It sounds exactly backwards that you'd take a position that everything his powers do should be able to be replicated and accessible without using his powers...  Is Wanda expected to play without using her clocks?  Should Wolfgang fight as well in wimpy form as he does in mighty?  Can any of Wicker's books be replicated with other items?  Then why is it bad for Woodie to actually have forms that are worth changing to?

I mean... that's kinda the point of the character innit. Woodie has no overbearing negatives like Wanda with her constantly draining HP, or Wolfgang with his increased insanity drain and wimpy form, or Wicker with her lowered health and inability to eat spoiled food. Woodie doesn't "have no downside" but his wereforms ARE his downside. That's why making them more optional isn't backwards because Woodie is not a traditional character constantly suffering from his downsides. You choose when to opt into the bad, in order to get the good, which gives him a unique "advantage". Making it so that his forms don't offer something irreplaceable like Wanda's clocks and Wolfgang's strength is pretty crucial to his design philosophy. 
Also it's not bad to have forms that are worth changing into, the forms as they stand are sometimes worth it but they are too difficult to use as it stands. That's why these suggestions that want to tackle QoL/Ease of Access are being made so often, because Woodie is good numbers wise, but it's too hard to make use of these otherwise not top tier numbers. 

 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

tbh this sounds like a lot of "I don't like this b/c then I'd have to use his powers."  Isn't using his powers the point?  Sure, he's not a bad character right now, but if we're going to change something - shouldn't we look at the best change possible?  Picking up logs in beaver is very low tier results, and its thematically inconsistent that "eating" a log just gathers it...  It seems entirely too contrived.  You want to pick up logs and hook in beaver b/c ???  I don't see the connection.  

Firstly I love using Woodie's powers, and I try to go out of my way to use them where applicable. The issue I have encountered is not that the benefits are too little, but that the obstacles are too large. Shifting the balance doesn't seem like a good solution when minor tweaks can go so much further in making him more fun to play, as well as viable in more ways than one. 
The log idea is a very minor change that would have a noticeable impact on Woodie gameplay, despite the low results. As I mentioned the Beaver and really all the forms suffer from having to sit around doing nothing to do ANYTHING, for atleast 20 seconds so you can detransform. This makes them unwieldy to use unless you benefit from being productive for almost the whole 4 minutes you're allotted which outside of boss battles as Moose will almost never be the case. Allowing the Beaver to simply use this downtime to gather logs instead of being entirely unproductive saves time and makes the form FEEL much better to play. I cannot stress how annoying it is to have the feeling of doing nothing for virtually any period of time in this game, so although it isn't the change I personally would want to introduce it still helps with that annoying aspect of the wereforms.

As for the log eating being inconsistent, kind of, but it makes more sense than the Beaver just picking up the logs and putting them in a backpack lol. Having him "eat" the logs still makes it feel true to the form and being a ravenous log eating beast. The only goofy part is it spilling out of Woodie upon detransformation, but I think that would be acceptably minor of a goof. 

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, MadMatt said:

I mean... that's kinda the point of the character innit. Woodie has no overbearing negatives.  his wereforms ARE his downside. That's why making them more optional isn't backwards

Is the point of Woodie to have very low-impact powers and negatives?  Are the wereforms supposed to be negatives to be avoided?  They certainly aren't all upsides, but I would think you should want to transform to them or else why play Woodie?  What is the character fantasy, if not to BE a were-transforming character..?

I think ultimately what you suggest feels bad thematically and adds nothing interesting to the character.  It sounds more like a player mod like amulet swap, or extra inventory.  Something that really isn't true to the game, it fulfils a very meta-based desire.  I don't think it adds anything to Woodie's character fantasy.  Regardless of what I've said I'd prefer to have changed (if anything) I don't see this "eat logs but not really eat them just hold them for a while" as worth changing.

[MadMatt]

3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

 Are the wereforms supposed to be negatives to be avoided? 

Yeah, that IS Woodie's character fantasy. It's interesting to delve into actually since I love playing Woodie as a character more-so than a survivor, and from a character fantasy standpoint yes having the wereforms be something that is almost always desirable goes against that. Woodie suffers from the curse of turning into a werecreature, not the blessing of turning into a werecreature. The character fantasy you suggest is more akin to if there was a wolf character who was always a werewolf, rather than a person who can turn into one. If you always want to chase after the wereform then what's the point of the lumberjack? I'm not suggesting that the wereforms should be trash if you're thinking that, but that making them something you incredibly frequently want to touch on and abuse like other characters is NOT staying true to the character or his fantasy. That's why I want more tweaks to make using the forms easier, not changes to make them superior; because the forms already have their uses and come with significant enough drawbacks, they just need to be easier to use in order to play better rather than being a chore to partake in.

[cropo]

I don't know what you're talking about to be honest. When I want Treeguards I will use human form, but there are times when I just want to mass-gather wood and don't want to wait for a Bearger. Bearger also has the issue of spawning treeguards mid-rampage, and they often will kill him if you are destroying a big enough area from spawning.  Wereform also allows you to dig up stumps for free, with human form Woodie you have to shovel up any stumps you cut to make room for replanting or getting the extra wood which means you have to carry a lot of shovels nearby or use a bunch of gold ones(which isn't much of an issue end-game, but I hate wasting gold on shovels). 

 

I don't see the harm in adding log-eating back, but I definitely do not want him to spawn treeguards in his wereform and honestly I don't really think the log-eating perk is needed. There are reasons to use human form and beaver form, when you have 3 chests full of living logs and don't want to spend 5 minutes every few trees killing the 4 treeguards that spawn werebeaver is gonna start looking pretty attractive.

 

Werebeavers biggest problem for me is the sanity loss, because when Nightmare creatures start spawning they actually pose an annoyance to the flow of chopping wood.