Wickerbottom needs more...

[Jinjetica]

ok, so some parts of this rework are great....but the rework feels very superficial. Wickerbottom is nothing more than her books and her knowledge, and this rework is only hammering that in!!! She feels VERY flat. Some things added in this rework may be problematic:

-the book on the moon can be used as a straight up troll item, spawning a full moon ever single night until the end of time! This would be questionable on its own, since it can inconvenience other players with werepigs, or make it impossible to ever reach the new moon for shadow pieces. But, since WOODIE EXISTS, this is a really cruel book that will essentially starve him to death if used too many times, forcing him to turn into a werecreature every single time she uses this book, *evil laughter" (this book is FAR too easy to craft, considering that it only requires 2 moon rocks along with the bookcase, all of which can easily be done within the first ten game days, if not even sooner for motivated players)

--book on apiculture.... The bees are really cool...but they aren't anything new to the game. They feel kind of random to be a follower for Wickerbottom, unless they were intended to be a con for anyone playing Walter x_x...since the grumble bees can also turn on the player if facing off against bee queen...but I don't see the point of the limitation, it also just feels very random, and very specific, without really tying into anything about Wickerbottom at all beyond her expansive knowledge...why is this the book she is writing? Wouldn't she rather write a book about owls? and have screech owls as her followers? idk, this one isn't really problematic, it just doesn't seem to tie into anything, but maybe I'm missing something, or it's meant to be random?

-the book on temperature....feels like a copy paste from the wx rework.... Are all future reworks going to involve temperature control? She uses a perfectly good thermal stone for a book that brings her temperature to a medium temperature... So then.... why? Even wearing really great gear, this will only last a short while, and without gear, a few seconds? She was better off with the thermal stone she used to make it at that point? The book also only has 3 uses.... and if the book itself doesn't change, then the durability needs to increase to match the value of the book.

-It added a bookshelf, which is wonderful, beautiful item and a great idea, and I want this whether I play Wickerbottom or not because it's a cool item, similar to Wendy's sisturn....but... the bookshelf should only be able to fit 10 books, It even only has 13 books on the actual structure image, It feels weird that Wickerbottom can fit ALL of her books on the shelf, because she should have a library of books, not just a shelf, she is a librarian. Maybe it's bit picky, but making another bookshelf likely wouldn't be that difficult for anyone either.

That being said, Wickerbottom needs more depth other than her knowledge. Her books drain her sanity, and can't really be used on low sanity, considering that many shadow monsters now appear if her sanity is low, or if she uses the books too many times? most of them all take 33 sanity, while the book on birds, tentacles, and the lunar grimoire all take 50 sanity.  She can craft items more easily than the other survivors, needing only a science machine for all alchemy engine builds. She also has her insomnia...which makes her currently immune to falling asleep from anything, and her delicate stomach...which now prohibits her from eating spoiled food.... she has no downsides really... Not being able to accidentally eat rot or rotted food seems like a blessing to me? But these don't really tie a strong personality to her... while many of her books seem to be tied to her garden, that's all we really get. her love of owls isn't reflected, nor is her affinity towards cats, we don't get any further sense of her sternness, nor her care of the other survivors. It would be nice if more was added to her base rather than just to her craftables.

The book on rain is perfect the way it is, it can stop rain if you don't want it, it can start rain if you do, great for her garden, and great for everyone elses sanity and freezing/overheating... because this book can be used in the summer to cool everyone down and water crops(does it also unwither everything?), and stop the rain, possibly also frain in the spring, and keep temperatures above freezing by keeping players from getting wet...this could possibly be used to  troll players as well, potentially making wx's life harder if it were desired.....

SPEAKING OF THAT....the end is nigh no longer serves a purpose now that the wx rework has obsoleted his inherent need for lightning... the book is more likely to burn down a base or kill the reader than do anything useful... 

I really want to play as Wickerbottom...but there isn't anything super interesting about her character yet, other than her quotes, which are hilarious.... telling the spiders to "behave" when she hits them is absolute gold! But what do you think about the rework, I also want to know what everyone else thinks.

 

 

[Ohan]

This sounds like a whole lot of high expectations and nitpicks im sorry to say. 

if wickerbottom’s hugely expanded arsenal of spells arent an exciting enough reason for u to play as her then shes just not the survivor for u. Thats what wickerbottom has always been about. There are a bunch of others in the cast to pick from. 

2 hours ago, Jinjetica said:

It feels weird that Wickerbottom can fit ALL of her books on the shelf, because she should have a library of books, not just a shelf

I can guarantee you every experienced Wickerbottom is gonna be making more that one bookcase dont worry lol. You need 5-6 copies of on tentacle alone for a bq trap. Not to mention the manyyyyyy bird books (and sleep books depending on set up) u need for krampus/feather farming. Several horticulture and silviculture books for farming crops and lureplant resource farming respectively. Etc. 

2 hours ago, Jinjetica said:

her delicate stomach...which now prohibits her from eating spoiled food.... she has no downsides really... Not being able to accidentally eat rot or rotted food seems like a blessing to me? But these don't really tie a strong

(Edit: i misread, she is indeed entirely incapable of eating spoiled/red food. I was thinking about stale food) 

Thats not how it works. Its not like wig trying to eat a carrot. Stale food now only gives her the diminished hunger value and 0 sanity/hp. Ex: 50 hunger instead of 100 from stale meaty stew iirc. 

Her biggest downside comes into play when u use her perks, similar to woodie. The addition of so many new books including books for every day, frequent use means she will be using a lot more sanity than before. And reading at 0 sanity now spawns a nightmare creature, there seems to be no limit to the number of nightmares that can be spawned this way. All of this means she will have to manage her sanity more frequently and much more hazardous free casting at 0 sanity until u get a bone helmet. 

At this point nobody should be surprised that refreshes dont introduce major new downsides. No more easy free casting at 0 sanity is a pretty sizeable new downside with that in mind. 
——

more flavour perks would definitely be appreciated like something with cats etc but ur acting like this is the most important thing. Webber grew up on a goat farm but his refresh didnt give him the ability to ride voltgoats or whatever either lol. Sometimes details like that dont need to be more than lore.

2 hours ago, Jinjetica said:

the end is nigh no longer serves a purpose now

Definitely agree with u on this. Would be nice for it to get some new functionality

[Jinjetica]

8 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Thats not how it works. Its not like wig trying to eat a carrot. Stale food now only gives her the diminished hunger value and 0 sanity/hp.

...But that IS how it works, did you play the beta yet? she won't eat any food in the red! unless she was never able to eat food in the red, idrk, I don't usually play as her?

9 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I can guarantee you every experienced Wickerbottom is gonna be making more that one bookcase dont worry lol. You need 5-6 copies of on tentacle alone for a bq trap. Not to mention the manyyyyyy bird books and sleep books u need for krampus/feather farming. Several horticulture and silviculture books for farming crops and lureplant resource farming respectively. Etc.

ok, good to know, also...the bookshelves will be replenishing the books, so maybe they won't need as many @_@

11 minutes ago, Ohan said:

more flavour perks would definitely be appreciated like something with cats etc but ur acting like this is the most important thing. Webber grew up on a goat farm but his refresh didnt give him the ability to ride voltgoats or whatever either lol. Sometimes details like that dont need to be more than lore.

ok... webber is a perfect example of what I'm talking about actually, lol. His love of arts and crafts, and his sweet considerate nature were incorporated into his character design. He bakes cookies for his spiders and decorates their dens with his arts and crafts, bringing joy to their bleak lives...and YES it IS really important to have details like that incorporated into the game, and I 100% love and appreciate them!!!

[Ohan]

22 minutes ago, Jinjetica said:

But that IS how it works. she won't eat any food in the red! 

I misread, i thought u were talking about stale/orange food since that is the most impactful part of the downside. Nobody really eats spoiled/red food, so i didnt even think to test it but ppl very frequently eat stale/orange food which is now even worse on Wickerbottom. 

22 minutes ago, Jinjetica said:

also...the bookshelves will be replenishing the books, so maybe they won't need as many @_@

i think the opposite will be true. If u want to save the book to repair u wont be able to use the last read, which means u will need more copies to get the same amount of casting pre-refresh. Unless u stick the book on its last use in the bookcase and wait for it to repair just a little and use the last charge, leaving the book at 1-2% to then repair fully etc etc etc. But thats a lot of hassle. 

22 minutes ago, Jinjetica said:

and YES it IS really important to have details like that incorporated into the game

I didnt say they werent. Was webber known for his love of arts and crafts before the refresh? I dont remember but i dont play him. What i did know about him was his love for goats, which again has no effect on gameplay. Not every little thing can be included.

people very often sweep aside wickerbottom’s starting T1 science. It is a huge flavor perk and informs her character immensely and also has very nice gameplay consequences. 

she can craft digamajig, hoe and watering can AND hort abridged right out of the gate. Reflecting her love and knowledge of gardening. 

etc etc etc 

[Jinjetica]

38 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Was webber known for his love of arts and crafts before the refresh?

I mean he does have that animation where he cuts out a heart from spider silk... and also his quotes indicate it...As do Wendy's quotes, and that they do arts and crafts together, its all very cute!!!

Webber:

pottery wheel- "I always wanted pottery lessons!"

Potter's Wheel (material placed)- "Oh! There's so many possibilities!"

Wax Paper- "Why have paper you can't draw on?"

Cloth- "We could make a new blankie. Or not"

Klaus Figure- "Can we decorate it?"

All Ghostly Elixirs- "Hey, you didn't tell me you were making crafts!"

Marble- "Maybe we should take up sculpting."

Walrus Tusk- "Maybe we can use it for arts and crafts."

Enlightened Crown Shard- "Uh oh... maybe we can paste them back together?"

DIY Table- "We could build that ourselves."

Electrical Doodad- "We are getting good at crafting!"

Feathery Canvas- "We used our nicest spider silk!"

Wendy:

Feather Pencil- "M...maybe I'll doodle something... When no one's looking."

Cartographer's Desk- "Maps are best with monsters drawn on the borders."

Potter's Wheel- "That looks... f-fun..."

Potter's Wheel (burnt)- "...I can't be disappointed If I expect nothing..."

Feathery Canvas- "My fingers ache from sewing in all those feathers."

Den Decorating Set- "I wonder if I might ask to borrow some colored pencils..."

[Parusoid]

On 7/16/2022 at 1:14 PM, Jinjetica said:

the book on temperature....feels like a copy paste from the wx rework.... Are all future reworks going to involve temperature control? She uses a perfectly good thermal stone for a book that brings her temperature to a medium temperature... So then.... why?

You forgot that the book also sets your moisture, and all items held or in inventory to 0 (dry instantly), makes you waterproof until log out or change shard; it also affects not only herself but also all payers within few tiles radius and instantly. If you are wearing winter/summer gear with 240 heat protection its gonna take few minutes before you lose 35 heat to start freezing/overheating again

[Evelo]

My only issue with the refresh so far is the lack of noticible downside. I love when characters have a downside you actually have to play around. (Warly with Crockpot only foods, Wormwood with Healing and Sanity, Wanda with her Age {which could be tuned more heavily imo}, Wendy with her lack of damage {only really noticeable for boss fights could be leaned into more or another downside}, OG Don't Starve Woodie and tree chopping, Wortox and normal food effect reduction (could be more imo 75% instead of 50%), Maxwell's Dapper but Frail).

Wilson has no downside (that's the point), Willow's aversion to the cold seems inconsequential to me because Winter is so easy to deal with after so many hours of play, Wolfgang's sanity drain is in a similar vain as Wormwood's Sanity control but more tedious than interesting. Walter is allergic to bees so... don't fight bees or get a Beefalo to tank for you, also ignored sanity gain from clothing. I never used clothing so it's a downside for some but not my cup of tea. Wurt and Wigfrid's dietary rescrition is a cute idea but food is so plentiful in the game now that neither are true restrictions I feel. The Monster tag that Wurt, Webber and Wortox have are detrimental to people who rely on Pig Farms but they aren't vital to the game. Wurt not being able to trade with the pig king is a huge downside no one else has.

Wickerbottom... She can't eat stale food or sleep. Okay? I feel like they could lean heavily into the Insomnia aspect and require her to sleep at a certain point. Progressively getting slower and complaining about her exhaustion. She then after idk, a week has to take a nap to recover herself at full efficency. This could be negative since you move slower, sanity drain, potential other effects, but also a positive since you can farm nightmare fuel more easily you have a reason to craft tents, leantos, sleeping rolls etc (sorely underused imo)

Granted these are my thoughts and opinions. Klei is an amazing company and whatever they do is on them. I am glad they are taking the time to address characters and refresh them all. For me, no character is as interesting as Wormwood just due to the convenience of dark sword crafting, the health restriction, and the kiss/curse with chopping trees.

[Arcwell]

15 minutes ago, Evelo said:

My only issue with the refresh so far is the lack of noticible downside.

Her books are her downside. They all cost 33 or 50 sanity per use, are used multiple times, and summon nightmare creatures when cast at low sanity.

Earlygame through midgame this means you're constantly insane if you're using books somewhat frequently, and likely spawning more nightmare creatures than any other insane character. You could argue this just makes for a good nightmare fuel farm, and to a certain extent, it does. The part that really makes it a hinderance is the amount of time you spend fighting nightmare creatures instead of doing something productive. It's sort of like wolfgang's dumbbells in that the cost is the time investment.

Lategame this doesn't particularly matter if you have a bone helm and/or a steady supply of sanity food, but isn't that fine? WX-78 for instance bypasses their downside by equipping an eyebrella, and Wormwood mitigates their downside with access to bat bats and/or jellybeans.

[Ohan]

15 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Her books are her downside.

Its funny how this needed to be said a second time in the same thread  ppl who dont play wicker a lot dont seem to get this/have not experienced this yet.

[Parusoid]

10 hours ago, Jinjetica said:

has no downsides

as an old lady her max hp has been lowered to 125

[Cheggf]

11 hours ago, Jinjetica said:

Wickerbottom is nothing more than her books and her knowledge, and this rework is only hammering that in!!!

Sounds like a good rework then. 

2 hours ago, Evelo said:

My only issue with the refresh so far is the lack of noticible downside. I love when characters have a downside you actually have to play around. (The only 3 characters in the entire game with notable downsides,  Wendy with her lack of damage)

Wickerbottom uses materials to make books, spawns nightmares when reading books without sanity, loses a lot of sanity when reading those books, can't regain sanity (or health) by sleeping, has horrible gain from anything other than fresh food, and can't get Christmas presents. Wendy does 25% less damage but she's only joking because actually she does 16-54% more damage due to Abigail giving her a 54% damage buff. That's even ignoring the damage that Abigail herself adds, about a third the damage of Wilson with a perfectly fresh ham bat. 

And if you're going to say "well actually Edgy Rick told me the meta play is to never sleep" riding a beefalo is about 1000x more meta so even if you let Abby tank things and refuse to heal her Wendy still doesn't do less damage since the beef negates that. 

[Evelo]

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wickerbottom uses materials to make books, spawns nightmares when reading books without sanity, loses a lot of sanity when reading those books, can't regain sanity (or health) by sleeping, has horrible gain from anything other than fresh food, and can't get Christmas presents. Wendy does 25% less damage but she's only joking because actually she does 16-54% more damage due to Abigail giving her a 54% damage buff. That's even ignoring the damage that Abigail herself adds, about a third the damage of Wilson with a perfectly fresh ham bat. 

And if you're going to say "well actually Edgy Rick told me the meta play is to never sleep" riding a beefalo is about 1000x more meta so even if you let Abby tank things and refuse to heal her Wendy still doesn't do less damage since the beef negates that. 

Way to ignore the fact I mentioned Wendy's downside only really affects bosses. Granted it isnt even all bosses. She is really powerful for Fuelweaver, Bee queen, because of Abbys AoE. Abby gets destroyed by Deerclops, Toadstool, Celestial Chamption. To a lesser extent Moose/Goose, Dragonfly, Shadow Pieces depending on who was last to land the attack. Sure you can quickly heal Abby but if too many hits land on her well gonna have to start from a level 1 Abby.

My opinion of Edgy Rick is and well anyone who produced content that thinks they are amazing at the game disgust me. No one is the best, anyway no. If you want to say that Beefalo is so meta because of Wendy's downside then Wormwood has no downside either since the beefalo can tank the damage for him. Which is true but just because it is an Option does not make it any more or less of a downside. Don't have a beefalo for Deerclops? Prepare to bring some extra weapons, it'll take 25% longer roughly. (and yes there are people who can easily fell all bosses using Abby 100% of the time. I am focusing on my personal experience which is more akin to the general population. Exception being Wormwood since I dedicated more time to him than your average player.)

Sleeping has its uses but with the prevalence of food the only characters that suffer from lack of eating are Wormwood and Wortox. Need quick cheap healing? Grow and Cook a ton of Toma Roots. Need quick and cheap Sanity? Grow watermelons and combine it with 1 ice and 2 sticks. Easy sanity. Oh wait, during Spring and Summer you can put 12 Toma Roots + 6 Dragonfruit for 2 tiles and the other 2 tiles can be 6 Onion and 12 Watermelon. Tend and water your crops. WOW! you have a ton of Hunger from Dragonpies, a ton of Health or Sanity from Cooked Toma Root or Salsa Fesca. and Watermelons for Melon Sickles or just eat the melon. Everyone (except wormwood for healing, warly for crockpot restriction and picky eating, and Wigfrid cause meat) can do this. Sure there is probably a video about this but I figured it out myself. Winter and Autumn? Pumpkin + Asparagus + Potato, alternatively Pumpinx2+Potatox2+Garlicx1. You have food from pumpkins, Cooked potatoes for healing, or Creamy Potato Puree for sanity.

So yea, Not being able to sleep isn't a downside I feel. I feel like requiring the player to sleep is an actual downside since it is an under utilized mechanic. The downsides can be progressive the longer the player doesnt sleep and it feels fitting for an insomniac and the toll lack of sleep does to a body. While it is odd none of the characters require sleep the fact that Wicker outright has "insomniac" as a trait is interesting and could be toyed around with.

If requiring materials is a downside then that is one I hadn't ever considered. Playing majority Wormwood Reeds are in high demand for him too for Honey Polutice. I never considered it a downside since all characters need to use resources. If Winona's downside is the high demand for rocks then sure? I accept that I did not consider the material demand to be an actual downside and it is something I feel should be leaned into harder.

Sorry for going on the rant, I got upset by seeing a quote of mine be taken out of context. "Wendy with her lack of damage {only really noticeable for boss fights could be leaned into more or another downside},"