[Suggestion] Wolfgang's Each Swing Should Cost Hunger

[dubious little]

8 hours ago, goatt said:

@dubious little You don't seem to understand that it has nothing to do with your subjective feelings of whether it's hard or easy. It's just a systematic examination of the game design and whether there is a neglect. I'm NOT trying to make Wolfgang harder to play if that's what you are getting at. That's not the goal. That's just the accidental side effect.

Okay since for some reason you just don't understand, let me break it down to you:

Your fix is changing the amount of hunger Wolfgang loses in order to make being mighty into a temporary form while not making it hard to stay in his normal form, thats fine, that makes sense.

The issue is that this objectively doesn't work because if you're carrying the extremely easy to craft item thats called a dumbbell, it pauses the drain, meaning you'll still be staying mighty despite your changes. You gain mightyness in so many ways, but that isn't the issue, if you're just exploring around doing tasks every now and then you'd be sticking to normal or temporarily being mighty, but due to being able to completely negate the drain with the dumbbell it creates the issue of:

Being able to walk to your next task which is very likely to increase your mightyness, you then finish said task, then go to your next one while holding the dumbbell, which means you've gained a net positive of mightyness no matter if you add these hunger changes or not.

9 hours ago, dubious little said:

Well no I'm just saying these changes don't make the meter harder because you can stop its drain by walking with a dumbbell, so increasing the hunger doesn't matter because the issue isn't the drain its the fact that you can completely stop the drain. The gyms hunger drain exists for the same reason you said it does in your post, as a tradeoff for not needing to craft a dumbbell using materials up. (Again I don't think this is an issue still anyways).

I literally said all of this in my other reply yet you chose to just see the words "harder" and assume I'm complaining about Wolfs difficulty being increased, your changes are fine but they have a flaw which you keep ignoring for whatever reason.

[goatt]

7 hours ago, dubious little said:

Your fix is changing the amount of hunger Wolfgang loses in order to make being mighty into a temporary form while not making it hard to stay in his normal form, thats fine, that makes sense.

If I buy an apple from grocery store A at a price of $1 each, I should also be charged at a similar price at grocery store B. If gym can gain mightiness at a rate of X mighty per Y hunger, other methods should also have a similar prices. Pausing mightiness drain, or grocery store having temporary discount or buy 1 get 1 or buy 1 get 10, or something else, doesn't matter.

The question here is that if grocery store A (i.e. gym) sells apple for $1, does grocery store B (working, fighting) also have to sell apple at a similar price or give apples away for free?

7 hours ago, dubious little said:

I literally said all of this in my other reply yet you chose to just see the words "harder" and assume I'm complaining about Wolfs difficulty being increased, your changes are fine but they have a flaw which you keep ignoring for whatever reason.

Please notice contexts. Contexts are everything. Your context has always been "is the suggestion of making Wolfgang harder actually going to make him harder to play". But I didn't try to make his mightiness harder to maintain. You will always be talking to your own imaginary discussion if you speak from a wrong context no matter how correct it appear to be, because you are simply talking about something entirely different.

My suggestion is about making the system consistent and fair, it's not about "balancing" the difficulty.

21 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

highly annoying

That's an overstatement. Please, it's mildly annoying, and most of the time, unnoticeably annoying.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

51 minutes ago, goatt said:

If I buy an apple from grocery store A at a price of $1 each, I should also be charged at a similar price at grocery store B. If gym can gain mightiness at a rate of X mighty per Y hunger, other methods should also have a similar prices. Pausing mightiness drain, or grocery store having temporary discount or buy 1 get 1 or buy 1 get 10, or something else, doesn't matter.

The question here is that if grocery store A (i.e. gym) sells apple for $1, does grocery store B (working, fighting) also have to sell apple at a similar price or give apples away for free?

the difference is that the gym gives the mighty points really fast while trying to raise the meter by fighting takes very long and can lead to being in a dangerous situation if you expect to change of form because of the transition stunlock if you arent carefuly (mechanic that i like) so you are using hunger to quickly increase it (for example in base when you hear hounds but you are in wimpy form) while fighting or working is situational and takes time and the only real use is to keep mightyness or top it. Also dumbells gives you a lot of mightiness via lifting or hitting with them but the cost are the resources to craft them

that is the balance between the 3 ways of getting mightiness points

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

If I buy an apple from grocery store A at a price of $1 each, I should also be charged at a similar price at grocery store B. If gym can gain mightiness at a rate of X mighty per Y hunger, other methods should also have a similar prices. Pausing mightiness drain, or grocery store having temporary discount or buy 1 get 1 or buy 1 get 10, or something else, doesn't matter.

The question here is that if grocery store A (i.e. gym) sells apple for $1, does grocery store B (working, fighting) also have to sell apple at a similar price or give apples away for free?

Weapons and dumbbells break, the gym doesn't. The gym is also way faster.

If you want to make weird metaphors for some reason I think this is more accurate: dumbbells are the normal line you wait in to get to the ride, the gym is Disney Fastpass+.

[Toroic]

The passive mighty drain currently has you lose mighty form in 4 minutes while above 150 hunger, and in just 2 minutes while between 100 and 150.

Unless you carry a dumbbell (lantern and cane both compete for hand slot) this drain forms a pretty considerable downside.

Wolf is in a place currently that is fun, much more interesting (and also weaker) than pre-refresh wolf and Klei is probably better off leaving him alone at this point.

The mightiness loss on hit was fun in some cases and annoying in others, and there’s a lot of testing and tuning that would be required vs simply leaving him as he is now.

I’m very happy with the experiments and changes and time Klei has put in, but at a certain point it’s best to recognize it works and move on.

Anyone who really loved the high risk, high reward strongman style would really be better off trying Wanda who was built from the start to support amazing kiting capability

[dubious little]

6 hours ago, goatt said:

If I buy an apple from grocery store A at a price of $1 each, I should also be charged at a similar price at grocery store B. If gym can gain mightiness at a rate of X mighty per Y hunger, other methods should also have a similar prices. Pausing mightiness drain, or grocery store having temporary discount or buy 1 get 1 or buy 1 get 10, or something else, doesn't matter.

People have already pointed out the difference to you, so I won't say anything on this.

6 hours ago, goatt said:

Please notice contexts. Contexts are everything. Your context has always been "is the suggestion of making Wolfgang harder actually going to make him harder to play". But I didn't try to make his mightiness harder to maintain. You will always be talking to your own imaginary discussion if you speak from a wrong context no matter how correct it appear to be, because you are simply talking about something entirely different.

My suggestion is about making the system consistent and fair, it's not about "balancing" the difficulty.

My context WAS that, my context now is "oh you are trying to balance this out, but theres a flaw" and you completely ignore the flaw I've pointed out each and every time. Your changes don't work, it isn't that they make him "harder" or "easier" or even are "making it more balanced", because hunger doesn't matter when it comes to mightyness unless you aren't carrying a dumbbell everywhere. Look if you lose hunger from doing a bunch of activities, that makes the drain faster right? Well if you do an activity then equip your dumbbell your meter won't drain, so losing hunger doesn't contribute to anything since you'll always have a net positive unless equipping something else or doing a task that doesn't provide might. I'm not gonna repeat this anymore, just actually READ what I'm saying, don't try and put me as "guy who can't accept changes to Wolfgang" because I even said the changes WOULD be fine if it wasn't for holding the dumbbell. I'm sorry for being rude, but you're being a bit of a brick wall. I'm not disagreeing with you like I was before, I'm pointing out an issue. If I'm misunderstanding how pausing the meter with a dumbbell doesn't stop your changes, then please tell me rather than ignoring it.

[goatt]

19 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the difference is that the gym gives the mighty points really fast while trying to raise the meter by fighting takes very long and can lead to being in a dangerous situation if you expect to change of form because of the transition stunlock if you arent carefuly

Let me try to paraphrase you: gym's cost of hunger is justified because it can gain mightiness very quickly, while fighting's cannot be justified because gaining mightiness in fighting comes with too many downsides, and those downsides should be considered as enough cost.

Let's compared the downsides and upsides.

Gym's biggest downside is inflexible and inaccessible in many situations. It's true that it's the fastest in gaining mightiness, but most people won't build a potter's wheel at multiple location and create a boss gym unless its a long term endless server. On the other hand, the downside of gaining mightiness in fighting (not working) is that it's slow and dangerous (because of stunlock), but those downsides only exist for new players who don't know fighting is not a way to gain mightiness, rather it's a way to maintain mightiness, or in other words, keep it high while it's already high. One should always have mightiness high before entering a serious fighting scene. Those downsides of being dangerous and slow only exists if it's used inappropriately, hence, they shouldn't be considered as proper downsides.

Gym's biggest upside is permanent and fast to boost forms. But fighting and working have huge advantage too, which is convenience. Again, I have to remind you it's not a good idea in anyway to use fighting as a primary method to gain mightiness. But it is THE BEST way to maintain high mightiness. That benefit is exceptional, even better than attacking with dumbbell now that mightiness penalty is removed. For that alone, the hunger cost should be justified to the same level of gym's hunger cost.

 

15 hours ago, Toros said:

Wolf is in a place currently that is fun, much more interesting (and also weaker) than pre-refresh wolf and Klei is probably better off leaving him alone at this point.

I agree. And this is important that you know i agree. I don't want people to think I want to change him or make him more balanced. I only want to point out what I think is inconsistent.

15 hours ago, Toros said:

The passive mighty drain currently has you lose mighty form in 4 minutes while above 150 hunger, and in just 2 minutes while between 100 and 150.

This should be treated as an entirely different problem, rather than the problem of the cost of hunger of fighting and working in mighty form (not all forms). It's an entirely different problem because fighting and chopping mining is only a small portion of the game play, and can only help with the maintenance of mightiness in an unreliable and limited way. This high mighty drain indicates a play style problem, which is that players are forced to tend to mighty form regularly, the punishment of failing to do that is being wimpy in less than 2 days. I personally think no one should be punished for not working out.

18 hours ago, Cheggf said:

If you want to make weird metaphors for some reason

There is a reason, the context is that I've been arguing with that person back and forth so many times that I felt i was repeaing my own words. So I decided to be creative and started to use metaphor. The metaphor is not intended for you and has to be seen in a specific way based on the context of the long arguments.

13 hours ago, dubious little said:

you completely ignore the flaw I've pointed out each and every time

I didn't ignore it, I've told you I think it's an overstatement. Every 2 trees (1 at 3rd stage, 1 at 2nd stage) only cost 1 hunger, killing a deerclops cost as little as 3.5 hunger, all of which can be negated by eating a seed.

On one hand, you want to show me mighty will go down (much?) faster because of loss of hunger, on the other hand, you wanna show me mighty will not go down at all because of dumbbell. As you said and I quote

13 hours ago, dubious little said:

so losing hunger doesn't contribute to anything

Your own arguments can even solve the problem you put forward and show that the hunger cost of each swing won't change much.

Another reason your suggested issue isn't accepted very well is because I'm talking about mechanism, and you are talking about effect. You are saying some existing effect will make my suggested mechanism ineffective. But I think not affecting the current system is a good thing. My goal is to have as little side effect as possible. Why would a bug fix significantly change the existing system? When you say hunger loss will boost mighty loss, I said, the effect is very minor (and can be fixed by eating seeds), so it's not a problem. When you said dumbbell pauses the mighty loss, but that's also a good thing, not a problem.

But I've never ignored you. I've read every of your comments and paraphrased them in order to understand your points. But believe that I've tried my best.

Also see above, I've addressed other people's points if you are on their sides. I'm always (trying to be) open minded and honest on the internet, as well as responsive and straightforward.

[Toroic]

@goatt I think your analysis is reasonable, as is your argument.

Where I fundamentally disagree is that I don't think hunger rate perks are interesting or fun.

Dietary restrictions, in contrast, provide a more interesting shift to gameplay.  Warly's limitation on only eating prepared food and food memory changes how you solve problems, and his powerful dishes provide alternative answers.  His higher than baseline hunger rate is somewhere between tedious and forgettable.

Similar situation with Wigfrid's inability to eat non-meat food.  It changes your gameplay and with her health and sanity gain from attacking, can survive on cooked monster meat if she wishes wihtout having to use healing or sanity restoring options beyond combat.

For Wolfgang, his primary downsides in beta are that almost all your perks are dependent on mighty form and it can drain very quickly if you're not fighting or working or carrying a dumbbell.

[goatt]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Where I fundamentally disagree is that I don't think hunger rate perks are interesting or fun.

No, you don't fundamentally disagree with me on that. I also think hunger rate perks aren't that interesting. As you can see, the analysis is horizontal comparison with items in the same bracket. If A in the bracket costs this much, and if B also costs this much, C should cost similar amount. But I didn't invent A or B, I'm just saying C should also cost this much because of A and B which are the existing hunger rate perk system.

When I suggested the numbers, they are 0.04, and 0.08, I personally are not fond of them as they look ugly and random. It was justified purely in the context of other mightiness gain methods in the existing hunger perk system which I didn't invent. That's why i would call it a bug, but not a new downside.

The thing I do like about hunger rate perk (that i didn't invent) is that Wolfgang does need more calories by reasonable amount thematically, and no one will blame him for eating more by reasonable amount. But it doesn't change the fact that I don't think hunger rate perks are generally not interesting or fun (such as winona's hunger craft perks).

[dubious little]

10 hours ago, goatt said:

8 didn't ignore it, I've told you I think it's an overstatement. Every 2 trees (1 at 3rd stage, 1 at 2nd stage) only cost 1 hunger, killing a deerclops cost as little as 3.5 hunger, all of which can be negated by eating a seed.

On one hand, you want to show me mighty will go down (much?) faster because of loss of hunger, on the other hand, you wanna show me mighty will not go down at all because of dumbbell. As you said and I quote

Your own arguments can even solve the problem you put forward and show that the hunger cost of each swing won't change much.

Another reason your suggested issue isn't accepted very well is because I'm talking about mechanism, and you are talking about effect. You are saying some existing effect will make my suggested mechanism ineffective. But I think not affecting the current system is a good thing. My goal is to have as little side effect as possible. Why would a bug fix significantly change the existing system? When you say hunger loss will boost mighty loss, I said, the effect is very minor (and can be fixed by eating seeds), so it's not a problem. When you said dumbbell pauses the mighty loss, but that's also a good thing, not a problem.

But I've never ignored you. I've read every of your comments and paraphrased them in order to understand your points. But believe that I've tried my best.

Also see above, I've addressed other people's points if you are on their sides. I'm always (trying to be) open minded and honest on the internet, as well as responsive and straightforward.

So whats the point of adding any of the hunger changes if they aren't effecting might? How exactly does it act as a bug fix? From my understanding you wanna add an increased hunger drain for doing activites which doesn't effect might much, so what does it do? It seems to me like it's meant to be a minor downside for being so powerful but you yourself said it doesn't matter, so genuinely what's the goal of adding it? You see a bug fix is meant to make something work properly right? How does adding the extra hunger drain make might work properly? Or is this more of a QOL functionality fix like how Klei made the see-pack-it better?

I guess I'm just confused and annoyed you aren't understanding me and you probabaly feel the same, so sorry if I got rude, if I don't understand after this I'll just tell you and we can leave it alone. I'm assuming not many people understand either though as a lot are in disagreement.

Lets put aside discussions like whether or not you ignored me because clearly we feel different to that and I don't view this as an argument. Just explain to me in a simplistic way whats the goal of your change and how does it work as a bug fix, because I don't understand how adding a new minor mechanic is a bug fix unless that new mechanic impacts the existing one, but I don't understand how yours does as you yourself said it doesn't change anything that exists already.