OP or not OP and influence of nerfs/buffs on player's experience

[Pig Princess]

Depends on circumstances in both cases; I will elaborate using Wolfgang as an example. This will be a long post, would be cool if at least one person reads until the end, but unlikely.

1. Damage modifier. First, extra damage translates into surpassing number of hit tresholds, such as killing hounds in 3 hits (before their second attack during their continuous spawn after day 100), shadow splumonkeys in 1-2 hits (before their second attack when there is hoard (>3) of them), bishops before their 2nd attack (player's 13th hit), 100 hp treshold (spiders, frogs, elemental hounds, etc.); and Wolfgang's damage modifier allows to surpass #1 with weaker than tentacle spike weapon (better weapon reduces it to 2 hits), #2 1 hit with dark sword/morning star in wet world, 2 hits with better than 0% (on the verge of becoming rot) ham bat, #3 with better than 38 damage weapon, #4 with tentacle spike or better weapon. Sounds good, considering Wilson can surpass #1 with tentacle spike or better weapon, #2 2 hits only with dark sword/morning star in wet world, as well as ot being able to reduce it to 1 hit at all, #3 using Hutch shenanigans with >56 damage weapon, use fire (with risk of burning loot), bring celestial crown or not at all without extra resources even with morning star in wet world (Wilson actually has to think about not being hit 3 times), #4 unreliably with celestial crown. OP? Maybe, but there is also Wigfrid: #1 with her starting weapon (>40 damage weapon), #2 2 hits with >tentacle spike or better (>50 damage weapon), not able to do 1 hit kill at all, #3 with dark sword/morning star in wet world or bring celestial crown/use fire/Hutch with >45 damage weapon, #4 unreliably with celestial crown. Question: what would happen if Wolfgang's damage was nerfed below 2x?

For #1 the better weapon Wolfgang uses, the less is the difference damage modifier does, so nerfing this would affect mostly people who use weak weapon - spear or axe, e.i. casual players, not veterans or middle-skilled players, and after tentacle spike it becomes irrelevant (3 hits is necessity, 2 hits, however, is only a luxury), moreover, keep in mind that 1.2x damage is enough for battle spear, morning star in dry world, bat bat, pick/axe and decently stale ham bat to surpass 50 damage per hit treshold, meaning that nerfing Wolf's damage down to Wigfrid/pepper spice level would hardly affect anything for middle-skilled player who uses something even slightly better than axe/spear. Same goes for #2 except Wolfgang would loose ability to 1-hit splumonkey, but 2 hits is really what matters here, and agan, there is not much difference for middle-skilled player between 2x and 1.2-1.25x modifier. As long as Wolfgang brings dark sword/morning star in spring #3 won't change at all between 2x and 1.25x damage modifier, only morning star in dry world or pick/axe won't achieve 12-hit kill of bishop, but who uses these for this purpose? Only #4 would be affected. So nerfing damage under 2x would achieve nothing for hound waves and bishops, and turns Wolfgang into Wigfrid for splumonkeys and 100 hp mobs, but I see no reason to turn Wolfgang into handicapped Wigfrid.

What would achieve buffing damage above 2x? For #1, #2 and #4 it woul achieve... nothing! For #3 buffing damage to 3.31 would allow to kill bishops no damage, but you know what else it does? Removes synergy with Warly! So apparently buff to damage removes team interaction, and nerf makes Wolfgang handicapped Wigfrid.

Second, there are cases when player fights strong mob with fast attack, and if they decide to tank hits, damage modifier translates into armor durability saved (rooks, Bee Queen, Dragonfly for those who can't kite her, etc.), which is really great. Problem with that is that the more player kites, the less armor player uses, which means that the more skilled is player, the less resources damage modifies saves. Let's take dragonfly as an example. I recently tested how much football helmets would it take to fully tank her with Wolfgang between 300-291 hunger with ham bat. It took 4.5-4.75 items, meaning that Wilson on average would need 9-9.5 and twice as much healing, so Wolfgang would save around 4.5-4.75 helmets in this fight (I was able to stunlock Dfly 1 time, but wasn't able to get 2nd scales, so extra help is needed after all). But if player kites Dragonfly, suddenly it saves 0 helmets! There are mobs and bosses for which tanking is more or equally viable as kiting though: Bee Queen, rooks, Fuelweaver, there player saves up to 50% of resources in case they tank, fair enough and strong, considering it could be marble suits/thulecite suits, bee keeper hats/thulecite crowns, lazy explorer, weather pain, whole Bee Queen crown and sanity/health restoration. Also that means that for players who are only learning kiting each mistake costs only 50% of resources. Moreover, 2x damage saves weapon durability no matter kites player or tanks (except ham bat and morning star cases). So in the end, the more player resorts to tanking, the more they feel Wolfgang's power, and the more they are kiting, the less is that power to the point when it doesn't really matter in terms of armor/healing/etc. whether to fight as Wolfgang or Wilson other things being equal (I'll discuss speed later, and other things are equal for beta Wolfgang), but weapon and tool (lazy explorer, weather pain) durability is saved regardless of player preference to kiting/tanking. Is it OP? The more player tanks, the more OP it is, but in kiting case it's just moderately strong.

Let's assume we decide whether to buff or nerf damage by equal amount, for example, 50%. So we are comparing 150%, 200% and 250% damage to Wilson in terms of resources saved for tanking. Let's imagine that Wilson uses 15 units of equimment of one type to defeat boss. 200% Wolfgang would need 7.5 items compared to Wilson and would save 50% of resources, 150% Wolfgang version would need 10 items and save 33.3% of resources, and 250% Wolfgang would need 6 items and save 60% of resources. That means adding first time +50% damage saved 33.3% resources, adding it second time saved 16.7% extra resources, and adding it 3rd time saved only 10% extra, e.i. the higher is damage modifier, the less relevant it is in terms of saved resources, even though it feels intuitive that 1x->2x damage modifier transition should be just as strong as 2x->3x transition, let alone 2x->6x should be OP as hell (but it's not, in fact). By the way, this is also the reason why with increase of team size individual damage modifiers matter less and less, as well as each added member is less and less significant in terms of increasing raw fighting power (compare difference in BQ fight with addition of second person to addition of 4th person).

2. Speed modifier. Speed is useful for both combat and general survival, and just as with damage modifier there are speed tresholds after surpassing which player gains qualitative change, e.i. not only in flat numbers. Examples: kiting T3 shadow rook, reducing number of taken hits from T2 and T3 shadow bishops, kiting bishops, avoiding temperature effect of gem deers's attacks, avoiding Celestial Champion's phase 2 attack (without sacrificing tons of dps), doing the same with Abigail present and alive, avoiding bone cage without teleportation, avoiding Klaus's jump without baiting it, outrunning Dragonfly and grumble bees, kiting enraged Klaus, enraged Dragonfly, Twins of Terror. More smooth, yet drastic change can be seen during running away from swarms of mobs (hounds, shadow splumonkeys, nightmarebeaks). Is it OP? Considering Wolfgang's speed stacks with other sources, it way be so for speed tresholds, but is just moderately strong for general purposes.

Question: what would happen, if Wolfgang's speed was nerfed/taken away (like in beta)? For general purposes change would be noticeble, but not critical, whereas for speed tresholds it disables a number of strategies: both in fight itself and during preparation, for example, doing ruins instead of something else may be mandatory and therefore limit amount of approaches. Buff would allow to surpass more tresholds depending on exact number until it will have no effect, after which it would only be noticeble for general purposes.

This leads to following situation: some people say Wolfgang is OP due to damage modifier, and when it comes to players who only learn kiting/tank, they are right, but when it comes to very skilled players, it's only moderately strong, and when those players say it's not OP, they are also right, from their perspective. Trick here is in omitted conditions. When people argue about speed, it's the same when people don't distinguish speed for general purposes and combat. So beta Wolfgang in terms of power is nearly the same for casual-moderately skilled players due to presence of old 2x damage modifier and the fact that such people won't rush fights with speed tresholds, however, for high-skilled people - Wolfgang mains, speedrunners, just people who like challenge fights in terms of minimal resources, choose "no damage taken" as a rule, etc. this is drastic change, basically it took majority of experience Wolfgang could provide to them, because obligatory ruins and absence of extra stacking speed modifier limits choices.

There is also another thought: speed is strong, maybe OP even, but what is Wolfgang's skill ceiling without it? He is left with only some damage thresholds like 1-shot shadow splumonkey and bishops killing - that's it, all boss fights were Wilsonized, as well as priority of goals, now it's identical to Wilson. Was nerf for the sake of balance which took fun out of character for a lot of people worth it? Now even wimpy healing efficiency is gone and I saw people mention it as something unique they liked too, as well as topping Wolf's hunger. While I'm not a fan of the latter, I can't deny that removal of those made Wolfgang less unique and this is not direction of every single other rework; considering nothing truly unique on qualitative level was added in return, it is a step in wrong direction. As for suggestions of other people: buffing damage wouldn't make up for it as I showed earlier (it would be unnoticeble and/or remove great case of synergy with Warly), return of the speed at the cost of damage would be very meh idea too, although more bearable due to huge damage modifier window in terms of tresholds (still, speedy Wigfrid is not what Wolfgang should be); small flavor perks outside of combat are not a compensation for minigames breaking Wolfgang's gameplay loop and doesn't help either, finally, 25% speed boost is not high enough to make all fights trivial and to surpass all speed tresholds. Wolfgang is combat character, yet he lost his uniqueness in there and gained nothing in return for this particular area he was designed for. Yes, he has 2x damage which is easier to maintain, but it's speed that made his experience unique (and hunger dain which encouraged rushing goals and planning the most efficient use of time). For me, personally, even speed wasn't enough, I was exited for Wolfgang rework and expected expansion of his kit, fights becoming even more different from Wilson, traits, that would change gameplay (not insulation debuff), more potential choices to make (stay wimpy or mighty now has straight answer "mighty"), something for people who can kill bosses as Wilson already. I was disapponted, to say the least. I waited for any hotfix to see changes made based on feedback, but it only deepened my concerns.

I also had some ideas regarding Wolfgang, in case anyone is interested and didn't see them yet, although some of them may not work well together:

 

[Mahoood]

Very well made post, thank you for sharing your opinion!

[Cloakingsumo198]

Perfectly encapsulates the many concerns posed on the fourms by the players who seem to have actually played Wolfgang trying to push his limits to see his capabilities. Speed and damage thresholds are nicely explained and it brings up concerns for the future of balancing overall good post

[Yuuko]

Quote

What would achieve buffing damage above 2x? For #1, #2 and #4 it woul achieve... nothing! For #3 buffing damage to 3.31 would allow to kill bishops no damage, but you know what else it does? Removes synergy with Warly! So apparently buff to damage removes team interaction, and nerf makes Wolfgang handicapped Wigfrid.

All good math - I considered it the same way, which is why I never advocated for increased damage to Wolfgang.  He's going to lose his speed, we gotta make the best of that.  imo the best of that is a character who is still Mighty, and does mighty things.
Fast != Mighty, sry :\ 

The bottom line:

As a player - make peace with losing speed.  It was very strong.  VERY strong.  You know this.  The fact that so many people feel such withdraws for losing it is a testament to just how OP it was.  New speed runs will be recorded, and old speed runs will be noted as predating this patch.  Its a whole new record category ready for competitive people to showcase their skills!  Wolfgang may prove to be the best still, but might not!  As a speed runner I would be looking forward to trying new things.  Quit comparing new Wolf to old Wolf, those records won't matter anymore.

Klei - needs to recognize that there is room for a speedy character to enter the constant, and should consider what type of character can have such speed as a perk, and how that might fit into the game.  It shouldn't be Wolfgang, but it probably should still exist.  Its obviously in high demand.

imo anyone who would throw Wolfgang's damage multiplier under the bus for speed doesn't want to play Wolfgang, they want to play a fast character.  Klei just needs to make it now.

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

I think speed would be fine if it encouraged combat and not just running around and picking berry bushes (since Klei seems like they want Wolfgang to be combat oriented). Maybe Wolfgang builds a speed buff as he fights? Idk, but I think it would be nice to see the speed tied to something beside mightiness, especially since most people don't like the gym.

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Klei - needs to recognize that there is room for a speedy character to enter the constant, and should consider what type of character can have such speed as a perk, and how that might fit into the game.  It shouldn't be Wolfgang, but it probably should still exist.  Its obviously in high demand.

This right here is a great idea.

[Toroic]

@Pig Princess how does Wolf having a 3x multiplier reduce synergy with Warly?

if Wolf had a 3x multiplier Warly would increase it to 9x

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Toros said:

@Pig Princess how does Wolf having a 3x multiplier reduce synergy with Warly?

if Wolf had a 3x multiplier Warly would increase it to 9x

Would it be x9 or x7?  I thought the multipliers were additive, so x2 + x2 + x2 = x6 not x2 * x2 * x2 = 8x

In which case x3 multi would increase with Warly to x7?  Maybe I have this wrong though.

[Toroic]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Would it be x9 or x7?  I thought the multipliers were additive, so x2 + x2 + x2 = x6 not x2 * x2 * x2 = 8x

Warly’s volt goat Jelly with pepper gives 3x damge, which is multiplied by 2 by wolf to get x6

[Pig Princess]

11 minutes ago, Toros said:

@Pig Princess how does Wolf having a 3x multiplier reduce synergy with Warly?

if Wolf had a 3x multiplier Warly would increase it to 9x

When you run towards bishop you usually can land 4 hits before it attacks, which means with dark sword Wolfgang does 544 damage, but with Warly buff can deal 979 in dry world, which is more than 900 hp bishop has. Other characters have to waste time by pushing Hutch or risking loosing loot and their own hp to fire. As for bosses, they melt already at 3x, 6x and 9x.

Edit: well, maybe not misery toadstool on 3x, but on 6x it definitely does. Still it's possible to fight misery toadstool on 2x as Wolfgang with torches.

[Mangrove]

Very well put, there was a lot of play to him which he now has lost

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

Was nerf for the sake of balance which took fun out of character for a lot of people worth it?

A nerf is inevitable if they think he falls outside the acceptable power band they have in mind for the characters, no matter how fun he is. Perhaps they are aiming for a narrower power band with the character refreshes? Would love to hear their reasoning behind the changes though

[Pig Princess]

25 minutes ago, Mangrove said:

A nerf is inevitable if they think he falls outside the acceptable power band they have in mind for the characters

If they didn't know how to change upsides to required power level, then it's not an excuse to break what worked fine. Instead there is an option to expand downsides, not just change some numbers, but rather do something like Warly's or Wormwood's ones, Wendy in boss fights (long animations to micromanage Abigail, no armor for Abigail, etc.), even Walter's main downside is more inspired (he has his own problems though). If we count single player, then there is Hamlet and Wilba who can't eat monster meat mindlessly, and it is majority of the drops there unlike in RoG (+ raw leafy meat is half as filling as large meat); + wereWilba can't wear armor, use tools (like bug'b'gone) and do advanced actions like cooking/planting/harvesting/retrieving/hopping on boat/chiseling/lighting on fire, which is also creative.

[Porkus]

38 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

It was very strong.  VERY strong.  You know this.  The fact that so many people feel such withdraws for losing it is a testament to just how OP it was. 

I'll explain here why it isn't: 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting berries: 828.06 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / picking carrots: 860.69 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting juicy berries: 858.47

 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting berries and getting mighty: 622

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / picking carrots and getting mighty: 810

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting juicy berries and getting mighty: 836

Wilson travels 720 tiles in a day, if you account for his food then 700. Wolfgang eating berries is 80 tiles slower than wilson (tile meaning dug up pitchfork square). So yes, most of the time it is a benefit, but thats what a benefit is, and this shows that if you manage it wrong he is weaker than wilson. In fights this can be used but thats what a benefit is. He is stronger than wilson but in no way overpowered, he is just a good character. His strength changes between skills. Very bad players find him annoying cause higher hunger, mid range find him easy for bosses they can't usually beat, and very good players find him unnecessary for beating bosses, so he is just a little bit better stats. So it's not op, it's just a pretty good ability.

 

now beefalo: in the first 6 days of taming the average speed is 35%, which includes the time it takes to gather resources for the beefalo. this will get to be 65% by day 22-23 if you start taming fast, and with glossamer it will be 2x wilson's speed. 

[Mangrove]

2 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

there is an option to expand downsides

I agree, Klei is usually so inventive and comes up with solutions nobody would have thought of. This refresh and nerf really took me by surprise

[Pig Princess]

11 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting berries: 828.06 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / picking carrots: 860.69 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting juicy berries: 858.47

 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting berries and getting mighty: 622

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / picking carrots and getting mighty: 810

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting juicy berries and getting mighty: 836

I assume it's for the case when carrots/berry bushes are perfectly lined up?

[Porkus]

Just now, Pig Princess said:

I assume it's for the case when carrots/berry bushes are perfectly lined up?

No, I accounted for time inbetween each plant

[Yuuko]

28 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

if you manage it wrong he is weaker than wilson.

"If you manage it wrong he is weaker" doesn't mean its not op lol  what kind of logic do you think you're using here?  If it was a perk where he had a 1% chance to kill a boss, but you were able to (skillfully or not) manipulate that percentage to make it always work, then its op.

[mr. brj]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

I was exited for Wolfgang rework and expected expansion of his kit, fights becoming even more different from Wilson, traits, that would change gameplay (not insulation debuff), more potential choices to make (stay wimpy or mighty now has straight answer "mighty"), something for people who can kill bosses as Wilson already. I was disapponted, to say the least.

This. Just this.

[Porkus]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

"If you manage it wrong he is weaker" doesn't mean its not op lol  what kind of logic do you think you're using here?  If it was a perk where he had a 1% chance to kill a boss, but you were able to (skillfully or not) manipulate that percentage to make it always work, then its op.

What you say right here is that skill or expertise is overpowered. The definition of overpowered is "be too intense for; overwhelm." so you are saying that Wolfgang's speed is really too intense to the point other speed shouldn't be used, and that it's overwhelming? if not then its not overpowered, it's just a strong ability. Also beefalo exist

[Yuuko]

Just now, Third Porkus said:

What you say right here is that skill or expertise is overpowered. The definition of overpowered is "be too intense for; overwhelm." so you are saying that Wolfgang's speed is really too intense to the point other speed shouldn't be used, and that it's overwhelming? if not then its not overpowered, it's just a strong ability. Also beefalo exist

What I'm saying is that skill cap isn't an excuse for OP things.  But good try putting words in my mouth.  I doubt anyone that disagrees with you is going to consider your rebuttal worth consideration :\ 

[Pig Princess]

22 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

No, I accounted for time inbetween each plant

What I mean is that if you need to go in straight line and bushes are right on the way, it's one thing; when they are 1-2 tiles to the sides, it's another, and the latter should take more time. I experience this with killing butterfies in starting biome, e.i. quiestion if it's worth to go for if it's 3 tiles away from me. Anyway, maybe you have some equations which allowed to calculate provided by you numbers?

[Porkus]

27 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

What I mean is that if you need to go in straight line and bushes are right on the way, it's one thing; when they are 1-2 tiles to the sides, it's another, and the latter should take more time. I experience this with killing butterfies in starting biome, e.i. quiestion if it's worth to go for if it's 3 tiles away from me. Anyway, maybe you have some equations which allowed to calculate provided by you numbers?

I didn't right them all down, but I can link the notes I took in docs - it won't entirely make sense cause this is just my thought process

 

Old Wolf:

 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting berries: 828.06 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / picking carrots: 860.69 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting juicy berries: 858.47

 

Tiles travelled in a day by Wilson eating / harvesting berries: 700

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting berries and getting mighty: 622

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / picking carrots and getting mighty: 810

Tiles travelled in a day by Wolfgang eating / harvesting juicy berries and getting mighty: 836

 

Berry speed: 1.235 94%

 

Berry tiles: 1.85

 

Carrot speed: 1.23 92%

 

Carrot tiles: 1.85

 

Juicy speed: 1.23 92%

 

Juicy tiles: 1.85

 

1 hunger every 3.2 seconds

 

105.6 hunger lost in a day

 

Assuming 3 second travel time between each plant

 

Berries:

 

1.375

 

45 hunger lost before 35 berries are collected

 

144 seconds lost

 

480 - 144 = 336

 

1.85 x 431.87 = 622

 

1 hunger every 3.2 seconds

 

105.6 hunger lost in a day

 

Assuming 3 second travel time between each plant

 

Carrots:

 

0.75

 

41.5

 

13 hunger lost before 20 carrots are collected

 

43 seconds lost

 

480 - 41.25 = 438.75

 

1.85 x 438 = 810

 

1 hunger every 3.2 seconds

 

105.6 hunger lost in a day

 

Assuming 3 second travel time between each plant

 

Juicy:

 

23.85

 

28.5

 

9 hunger lost before 21 juicy are collected

 

28 seconds lost

 

480 - 28= 452

 

1.85 x 452 = 836          

 

This is still very idealistic: realistically it will be slower than this, and this assumes all you are doing is picking food - his speed will be far worse than this - wilson will be around the same 

32 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

What I'm saying is that skill cap isn't an excuse for OP things.  But good try putting words in my mouth.  I doubt anyone that disagrees with you is going to consider your rebuttal worth consideration :\ 

The words I put in your mouth were your words, replace anytime you say op with the definition with op and you see what I'm talking about, and how it relates to your statements

[Yuuko]

14 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

The words I put in your mouth were your words, replace anytime you say op with the definition with op and you see what I'm talking about, and how it relates to your statements

 

43 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

The definition of overpowered is "be too intense for; overwhelm."

Read up

https://dotesports.com/news/what-does-op-mean-in-gaming

https://www.businessinsider.com/op-meaning

https://screenrant.com/video-games-op-meaning-definition/

[Porkus]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

 

okay boomer...  Read up

 

yeah- using official definitions and not websites that make you disable your adblocker and has popups

also all those descriptions are saying that something is too strong - which is kind of impossible to see with an ability that just makes you go faster, so I would ask you if you think beefalo are overpowered or if wormwood is overpowered, especially beef considering ornery can do high damage and have 1.93x speed

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

yeah- using official definitions and not websites that make you disable your adblocker and has popups

also all those descriptions are saying that something is too strong - which is kind of impossible to see with an ability that just makes you go faster, so I would ask you if you think beefalo are overpowered or if wormwood is overpowered, especially beef considering ornery can do high damage and have 1.93x speed

sry but if you wanna pull out the "this is the textbook definition" game to pretend to be superior, you might as well elevate yourself to understanding how language evolves, and why the dictionary is reductive, and always a step behind colloquial use. 

And no - by objective measure in game the speed was powerful, we see this because all speed runs are Wolfgang.  Don't even @ me on that lol  If you can't say something better, keep whining - it probably won't change anything, but maybe you'll feel better?

[Porkus]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

And no - by objective measure in game the speed was powerful, we see this because all speed runs are Wolfgang

In a speedrun I don't really think anything is overpowered: the whole point is to do something as fast as possible, so a character who is able to do things fast in that setting isn't op they are just fit for it, it's not like speedrunning is super useful in normal gameplay, I mean how much is killing dfly day 2 really going to do for you