reWolfwork obviously

[Yuuko]

So far this rework seems half baked.  Klei needs to either go all the way, or go back to the drawing board.

The previous perks for Wolfgang were designed around immediate action.  If you needed to fight you would eat food and immediately become Mighty to fight.  If you went too long without eating you would drop to Wimpy.  Wimpy was an obvious penalty, worse than simply not being mighty.  You'd only hit this form if you failed to keep up your hunger, but once you eat its k again.  The perk and the mechanism to enable it work together as short term decisions, either giving you your power or taking it away.  If you want to stay in full Mighty for a longer fight you must prepare for it, but being normal form wasn't bad or difficult to maintain during downtime.  Wimpy only happened if you messed up and starved.

The new system is set up for progression.  You start out with no realistic way to even stay out of Wimpy form.  As you unlock better dumbbells and gyms you can work your way into mightiness, but it will be lost shortly without upkeep.  That upkeep is neither cheap or convenient, being at least as costly as gaining Mighty to begin with.  You're basically always going back through the progression loop, over and over again.  You've got to constantly craft and pump dumbbells, or build gyms *everywhere.*  It just doesn't work.

newWolf is relatable to oldWendy.  Wendy used to have to wait a bit to access Abilgail and jump through some hoops to summon her.  Abigail was situationally effective, and when she died you had to start over.  Not that players couldn't play around these and do cool things with her, but it was an unintuitive, awkward, and punishing kit.  Running around with sacrificial bunnies and multiple flowers took a lot of work, and didn't payoff that well...  Without Abigail, Wendy was basically another Wes with her damage penalty being her default state.

Similarly newWolf starts with no realistic access to Mighty.  You have to spend a lot of time building towards Mighty, setting up dumbbells and gyms.  Once you do get Mighty its a temporary and situational benefit.  If you aren't fighting, Mighty is wasted but if you aren't Mighty and a fight starts you don't have time to pump weights to get Mighty, you just gotta play through it as you are.  This is a really awkward bar to straddle because the cost to maintain Mighty is at least as high as the cost to gain it.  It is a constant tax on your time, which is effectively a tax on *all* resources.  Just as oldWendy used to craft multiple flowers and carry sacrificial animals with her, newWolf has to build gyms and statues everywhere he might want to be Mighty, and tbh - while the gym is quicker access to Mighty, it's just "eat food get strong" with extra steps...  Its worse than oldWendy in that once you had Abigail out she'd at least stay out until she died.  With the Mightiness decay you're guaranteed to fall out, or pay the tax of time and resources to maintain it...

Wolfgang is at a crossroads and Klei needs to pick a direction.  You can't demand this much ramping for such a basic and short lived perk.

Mightiness can either be a temporary boost that is easily / quickly accessed (Woodie, Abigail, Woby) or take ramping and be persistent once obtained (Wigfrid, Wanda, Winona)

If its a short lived boost, we might as well go back to how it was.  It was thematic, impactful, and honestly after the refreshes and Wanda... not OP.  If the ramping system stays it needs to be something you can reasonably maintain once set up.  The only time you should see Wimpy form is if you've actually failed as a player, like dying / starving / etc.

[Flip Face]

You made me think that Mighty Wolfgang should be based on the strength meter.

And that Wimpy Wolfgang should be based on hunger.

I'm not suggesting anything just digressing.

[Yuuko]

22 minutes ago, Cursed Name said:

You made me think that Mighty Wolfgang should be based on the strength meter.

And that Wimpy Wolfgang should be based on hunger.

I'm not suggesting anything just digressing.

There is definitely room for critique in the way they are doing it now...  Imo the current state of the re-work sounds a lot like Winona.  You have a persistent and annoying downside early game, and late game payoffs - which perfectly sets Winona up as a pick and switch character.  Winona's hunger tax for sporadic crafting and crafting penalty for low hunger are horrible early game when you're wondering, exploring, etc.  Her speed crafting and structures aren't really useful until you've established yourself.  I could see Wolfgang being a pick n switch, where someone plays Maxwell or Woodie, gets all the stone / wood / etc needed to build a few gyms with boss statues.  Switches to Wolfgang, sets them up and KO's set pieces, AFW, CK, CC, etc in a big marathon and then swaps back.

Once you get the big weights and gyms set up everywhere mightiness isn't much of a bother, it just getting there... makes me think "I could set all this up as xyz character and just grab Wolf when it would matter."

[Well-met]

5 hours ago, Shosuko said:

You're basically always going back through the progression loop, over and over again.  You've got to constantly craft and pump dumbbells, or build gyms *everywhere.*  It just doesn't work.

just means the 6x damage is justified now.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Well-met said:

just means the 6x damage is justified now.

You mean as mighty bonus, without any other perks / warly food / etc just getting 6x damage mod for mighty?

I've thought about that, but it would just trivialize the big bosses even more, which means Klei would have to pump out even bigger bosses to challenge Wolfgang, exacerbating the cycle pushing 0 damage mod characters out of game content.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You mean as mighty bonus, without any other perks / warly food / etc just getting 6x damage mod for mighty?

I've thought about that, but it would just trivialize the big bosses even more, which means Klei would have to pump out even bigger bosses to challenge Wolfgang, exacerbating the cycle pushing 0 damage mod characters out of game content.

Wolfgang killing a queen in 5 hits be like

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

You mean as mighty bonus, without any other perks / warly food / etc just getting 6x damage mod for mighty?

I've thought about that, but it would just trivialize the big bosses even more, which means Klei would have to pump out even bigger bosses to challenge Wolfgang, exacerbating the cycle pushing 0 damage mod characters out of game content.

i rather prefer that klei ignores that wolfgang+volt goat jelly exists when designing bosses

anyways the hardest boss already falls in 1 minute

[Gashzer]

I have one word to fix your mightiness problem.

Spoiler

Gembell

 

[Mike23Ua]

Klei said ages ago Wolfgang’s design intent was to fight bosses, that’s IT that’s his BEST use… just like Abigail’s BEST use is intended to fight large crowd mobs, or Bernie’s Best use is to fight hordes of Shadows.

Those were Klei’s own words.. that’s what these characters core concepts are: So to see people wanting Wolfgang to do a myriad of different useful perks outside of Boss fights makes him a knows all the tricks pony.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei said ages ago Wolfgang’s design intent was to fight bosses, that’s IT that’s his BEST use… just like Abigail’s BEST use is intended to fight large crowd mobs, or Bernie’s Best use is to fight hordes of Shadows.

Those were Klei’s own words.. that’s what these characters core concepts are: So to see people wanting Wolfgang to do a myriad of different useful perks outside of Boss fights makes him a knows all the tricks pony.

 

Except Wendy doesn't just fight mobs of enemies, she makes her sistern, and if properly utilized Abigail acts more like a first line defense and tank for Wendy, against enemies that don't have aoe, smart players made bee queen sanity stations with her sisters flowers, she can still buff her sister in multiple ways, her sister can attack mobs that run away cause she doesn't scare them away. There is multitude of uses to Wendy if people utilize her smartly not just brain dead aoe ghost girl

13 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I have one word to fix your mightiness problem.

  Reveal hidden contents

Gembell

 

 

[Mike23Ua]

Just now, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Except Wendy doesn't just fight mobs of enemies, she makes her sistern, and if properly utilized Abigail acts more like a first line defense and tank for Wendy, against enemies that don't have aoe, smart players made bee queen sanity stations with her sisters flowers, she can still buff her sister in multiple ways, her sister can attack mobs that run away cause she doesn't scare them away. There is multitude of uses to Wendy if people utilize her smartly not just brain dead aoe ghost girl

I’m aware, I said Core Concept: Meaning the one thing they are intended to do BETTER then Anyone else.

Each character has a role they need to fulfill- they can have smaller perks (such as letting Wolfgang Fist punch Boulders in Mighty form) but ultimately their perks can’t outclass the character designed to do it BEST.

In comparison: Wortox is the best team healer, Wendy is best Crowd Control, Willow is best Insanity protection, Wolfgang is best at squishing the big baddies.

Thats their “Kit” their role, they can have other small perks but there’s still something their best at and not so good at.

Abigails damage boost doesn’t for example help Wendy in chopping Wood.. it’s a painfully slow process for her.

[Cloakingsumo198]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m aware, I said Core Concept: Meaning the one thing they are intended to do BETTER then Anyone else.

Each character has a role they need to fulfill- they can have smaller perks (such as letting Wolfgang Fist punch Boulders in Mighty form) but ultimately their perks can’t outclass the character designed to do it BEST.

In comparison: Wortox is the best team healer, Wendy is best Crowd Control, Willow is best Insanity protection, Wolfgang is best at squishing the big baddies.

Thats their “Kit” their role, they can have other small perks but there’s still something their best at and not so good at.

Abigails damage boost doesn’t for example help Wendy in chopping Wood.. it’s a painfully slow process for her.

Wolfgang is literally built different from everybody, dude rips off his leotard by just flexing, he increases in size in the literal game, i don't think woodie is gonna feel Wolfgang creeping up for his gatherer role when he is literally chopping forest down like nothing for no cost.  Wolf would have to be in mighty for his buffs and his mighty form compared to before just ain't as tantalizing to wanna maintain.  Wolfgang's "kit" is that he is the strongman make him feel different to everyone else, yeah 2x damage is great but by itself it's extremely boring/underwhelming

Having someone be able to accomplish a multitude of things is alright, they can even be the best at what makes them unique but being more well rounded doesn't overshadow your specialized characters who by design aren't meant to be like anyone else every character has a unique play style forcing Wes to be a combatant and expecting him to outclass anyone else is dumb he specializes in his cheap balloons and looking cute.

[lakhnish]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

There is definitely room for critique in the way they are doing it now...  Imo the current state of the re-work sounds a lot like Winona.  You have a persistent and annoying downside early game, and late game payoffs - which perfectly sets Winona up as a pick and switch character. 

No, anything but another Winona NotLikeThis

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

No, anything but another Winona NotLikeThis

Characters that require so much set up you might as well play someone else first

[HowlVoid]

7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

So far this rework seems half baked.  

He actually had the meatballs to say it, you mad lad. 

Needs to go back into the oven.

[Mike23Ua]

Whoa wait a minute… wait just a minute hold on: 

Wolfgang is Carrying Mighty Large Potato not on his back.. but in FRONT of him in both hands.. which means: He should In Theory be able to walk with large objects like this AND Wear a Backpack at the EXACT same time.

Good bye Speed, Hello super useful Wolfgang perk.

And there’s leaked details of a skin for oddly enough: Antlion Cave Boulders… why would those of ALL things be getting a skin during the Wolfgang Rework?

Perhaps there’s more to this Rework then what is currently in “Beta”

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just make his might meter revolve around how much work wolfgang is putting in each day, if he has been fighting morning to night he should gain some might meter, same if he was chopping trees all day or mining rocks all day. Not all muscle is built in the gym and this over reliance on the gym equipment just to enjoy his character traits sucks.  The dumbbells and gym are great idea if you've reach low might levels and need to raise it up without going out and working the hours. That sounds way more balanced and less tedious than lift weight every 6 minutes

 

Old Wolfgang wasn't tied to the base cause he had to get more things first before it could sustain his hunger, most Wolfgang players didn't become Wolfgang to make bases either lol or to stand around all day they wanted to cut time even if they used more resources.

 

Alot of characters abilities work seamlessly they don't disrupt the original gameplay loop by making it a requirement to have the mcguffin first to enjoy your character there is natural progress whilst general surviving.

[Mike23Ua]

I want to add to what I said about holding a heavy item AND wearing a backpack at the same time: Which the above image clearly indicates he should be able to do…

While holding a heavy object (Giant Potato or those Mysterious Antlion Boulders that have a new skin coming…) Wolfgang’s Mightiness does not drop because he is still performing feats of Extreme levels of Might.. so You could just carry around a giant Potato or a Giant Antlion Boulder and stay Mighty while also continuing to wear your backpack full of loot.

I’m also willing to bet you will be able to “throw” Giant Potato or Antlion Boulder like Dumbells..

Dang this rework sounds exciting if these theory's turn up true!