Hypothermia and heat stroke (again)

[durbal]

I'm not going to rehash all the stuff about hypothermia, but I think two basic QOL for hypothermia/heat stroke should be:

a) Make tiny puddles of liquid not cause heat loss/gain as being fully submerged.

b) Either make it persist like skin/eye irritation or don't.  The current functionality wherein it 'respawns' upon game loading or only upon the 34C/40C threshold being passed is silly.  A dupe can function perfectly fine infinitely in cold/hot temps as long as the player doesn't take a break or the dupe doesn't warm up and then cool back off or vice versa.  Ideally it'd be a sliding scale and be persistent like skin/eye irritation, but I don't really care as long as it's consistent -- at the moment I have no idea if running dupes around with body temps as cold as ice is intended or not.

It seems like (b) at least is very simple to do, so...could this get a quick QOL rework/fix?

 

[Ntr1cate]

I'd rather it not change as your excuses are a opinion, don't require any sort of quick QoL rework as it doesn't reflect it's intended purpose (to simulate albeit NOT 100% accurately certain RL conditions people would face).

Low level eye irritation in RL can generally be cleared by removing the irritant and either blinking or flushing your eyes to clear it out generally leaving minor irritation for a few minutes.

In RL hypothermia and heatstroke doesn't set in until you have passed the point of the bodies tolerance after which it takes day/s to recover (you can swim in a cold ocean and be fine as long as you keep moving to produce natural body heat and its not so cold that your body can't compensate), What I am surprised about is your not asking to have the timer for hypothermia/heatstroke fully reset or increased the longer they stay in said liquid.

As for the puddle thing, the mass to temperature ratio of 30g of a puddle is so insignificant that the duplicants body can compensate (albeit they really should clean it up as the stress factor is far more detrimental)

[durbal]

8 hours ago, Zerohayven said:

I'd rather it not change as your excuses are a opinion, don't require any sort of quick QoL rework as it doesn't reflect it's intended purpose (to simulate albeit NOT 100% accurately certain RL conditions people would face).

Low level eye irritation in RL can generally be cleared by removing the irritant and either blinking or flushing your eyes to clear it out generally leaving minor irritation for a few minutes.

In RL hypothermia and heatstroke doesn't set in until you have passed the point of the bodies tolerance after which it takes day/s to recover (you can swim in a cold ocean and be fine as long as you keep moving to produce natural body heat and its not so cold that your body can't compensate), What I am surprised about is your not asking to have the timer for hypothermia/heatstroke fully reset or increased the longer they stay in said liquid.

As for the puddle thing, the mass to temperature ratio of 30g of a puddle is so insignificant that the duplicants body can compensate (albeit they really should clean it up as the stress factor is far more detrimental)

I understand what reality is.  My issue is not with reality or with game abstractions of that reality.  My issue is with silly metagame things that occur such as dupes getting hypothermia because the player took a break or the game crashed and they reloaded their save.

And you won't convince me that some entity which has an optimal operating temp with a 3C buffer on either side can somehow operate as normal infinitely at +-30C out of that buffer long as 200 seconds has passed.  But in the context of my argument and this thread that's pretty immaterial anyway, since I'm just asking for the trigger and/or save serialization for hypothermia/heat stroke to be fixed so we don't have the situation in which a dupe can be perfectly fine at 33.9C as long as it doesn't go to 34C then back down to 33.9C or the player decides to take a break.  In essence, this is a programming problem, not a simulation problem.

Also, in practical terms a 22C, 30g puddle can indeed lead to hypothermia/heat stroke.  That's not opinion.  This is easily verified by sandbox mode or simply by playing the game.  It's not 30g of water at 22C, it's 30g of water on 10 tiles making it 300g and on top of that the puddle is losing heat to the 22C surface it's on.  It takes less than a cycle and often just a fraction of a cycle for a dupe to get hypothermia from what's really a few drops of tap water on the soles of their feet.

[Ntr1cate]

1 hour ago, durbal said:

I understand what reality is.  My issue is not with reality or with game abstractions of that reality.  My issue is with silly metagame things that occur such as dupes getting hypothermia because the player took a break or the game crashed and they reloaded their save.

And you won't convince me that some entity which has an optimal operating temp with a 3C buffer on either side can somehow operate as normal infinitely at +-30C out of that buffer long as 200 seconds has passed.  But in the context of my argument and this thread that's pretty immaterial anyway, since I'm just asking for the trigger and/or save serialization for hypothermia/heat stroke to be fixed so we don't have the situation in which a dupe can be perfectly fine at 33.9C as long as it doesn't go to 34C then back down to 33.9C or the player decides to take a break.  In essence, this is a programming problem, not a simulation problem.

Also, in practical terms a 22C, 30g puddle can indeed lead to hypothermia/heat stroke.  That's not opinion.  This is easily verified by sandbox mode or simply by playing the game.  It's not 30g of water at 22C, it's 30g of water on 10 tiles making it 300g and on top of that the puddle is losing heat to the 22C surface it's on.  It takes less than a cycle and often just a fraction of a cycle for a dupe to get hypothermia from what's really a few drops of tap water on the soles of their feet.

I don't need to open sandbox because I already understand the general mechanics of heat transference in the game, the thing is duplicants should be spending as little time in liquids as is  (I mean, wet feet and sopping wet is ment as a deterrant to standing in liquids often, it's there for a reason).

Perhaps unlock the door to the room that your storing you duplicants to let them walk elsewhere to warm up or sweep the liquid if they must remain locked in said room (I mentioned before you should mop it so I will mention it again since you seem to be unaware there is a mopping mechanic, there is also pumps for larger quantities of liquids too or you can move to using atmo/jet/lead suits later on if your hell bound on not using the mop mechanic).

Gases generally have such a low TC rate, even low temperatures will still let a duplicant body to automatically heat up over time (so keep them out of liquids)

[durbal]

 

1 hour ago, Zerohayven said:

I don't need to open sandbox because I already understand the general mechanics of heat transference in the game, the thing is duplicants should be spending as little time in liquids as is  (I mean, wet feet and sopping wet is ment as a deterrant to standing in liquids often, it's there for a reason).

Perhaps unlock the door to the room that your storing you duplicants to let them walk elsewhere to warm up or sweep the liquid if they must remain locked in said room (I mentioned before you should mop it so I will mention it again since you seem to be unaware there is a mopping mechanic, there is also pumps for larger quantities of liquids too or you can move to using atmo/jet/lead suits later on if your hell bound on not using the mop mechanic).

Gases generally have such a low TC rate, even low temperatures will still let a duplicant body to automatically heat up over time (so keep them out of liquids)

Clearly you don't understand the game mechanics when you make a statement about them that is demonstrably false.  The idea that duplicants 'should' be spending less time in liquids is both irrelevant to the QOL updates I proposed and entirely a matter of your opinion -- I think dupes spending time in liquids is inevitable considering there is no way to order them out of hot/cold zones and mopping is not something that should be done in a great multitude of cases (off-gassing PO2, slickster crude oil farms, petroleum generators, natural gas generators, gravity-fed systems, etc.)  Besides, the idea that there is some specific way you're 'supposed' to play ONI is kinda counter to the game design itself and even more so the idea that it's not a QOL issue to have improper triggers and serialization problems in the game code because 'well, you shouldn't be doing that anyway'.  (Don't trigger bugs and you won't have any bugs, right?!)

[Ntr1cate]

I don't get it, you proved me right with your testing then say I am "demonstrably false".

Unless your trolling you seem to just be repeating what I have been saying but in higher detail then immediately throwing yourself back into the hole.

I seriously don't get why you don't seem to understand this.

I mean, the game is made by KLei, you can either use what they have given you or not, if you don't like what they have given you then make a mod for it.

In this sandbox survival builder game, if you don't want to design liquid passages/containers, then don't, If you don't want to use the moping command, or the pumps, or atmo suits, etc etc to avoid the resulting risks, then fine, don't use it , but why complain about it and demand it change just for you? (and probably a select few)

[ImDaMisterL]

Hey everyone, remember to be civil when posting and follow our Community Guidelines. Thanks for understanding.

[durbal]

9 hours ago, Zerohayven said:

I don't get it, you proved me right with your testing then say I am "demonstrably false".

Unless your trolling you seem to just be repeating what I have been saying but in higher detail then immediately throwing yourself back into the hole.

I seriously don't get why you don't seem to understand this.

I mean, the game is made by KLei, you can either use what they have given you or not, if you don't like what they have given you then make a mod for it.

In this sandbox survival builder game, if you don't want to design liquid passages/containers, then don't, If you don't want to use the moping command, or the pumps, or atmo suits, etc etc to avoid the resulting risks, then fine, don't use it , but why complain about it and demand it change just for you? (and probably a select few)

Hypothermia and heat stroke re-trigger on game reload because their status is not serialized during the game saving process.  That's a programming issue i.e. and oversight or bug.

My issue is not that the game is hard or that I don't know how to play it.  I don't know why you seem to think that's the case.  It's not a matter of not using the tools provided by the game (in fact, it's completely the opposite).  My issue is that a dupe can have a body temp of -80C and operate indefinitely with zero issues as long as the player doesn't take a break from the game, come back and load a save.  That's not an issue of not using the tools provided in the game, it's an issue of the disease triggers and improper save serialization.  Again, this is a programming problem.

I'll also say that when someone has a suggestion or points out a potential issue, it's entirely reductive to just say 'too bad, that's how the game is and make a mod for it if you don't like it'.  By that logic Klei should never update their game.  The purpose of this forum is to discuss the game, provide suggestions, point out bugs/issue, etc. -- if all you're going to do is tell people to essentially not post here or some version of 'git gud' then you're not adding to the discussion.  And seriously, did you read my original post and somehow come to the conclusion that I'm trolling?

 

9 hours ago, Zerohayven said:

I don't get it, you proved me right with your testing then say I am "demonstrably false".

You stated that dupes can't get hypothermia from stranding in a 30g, 22C puddle.  This is demonstrably false.

[Ntr1cate]

4 hours ago, ImDaMisterL said:

Hey everyone, remember to be civil when posting and follow our Community Guidelines. Thanks for understanding.

Roger that

[Sasza22]

Aside from technical issues and stuff like "should a tiney puddle of liquid transfer heat" which is just about weird game mechanics i can agree that a dupe curing from hypothermia/heat stroke without his body temperature going to normal levels shouldn`t be a thing. We could argue if it`s realistic or not but a dupe being fine with his body temperature 20 degrees away from regular shouldn`t be fine after a while. At the very least he should keep the symptoms until his internal temperature normalizes.