Bunny hutches should cost less carrots

[sawchuk519]

In general, I like what has been done with the changes to Bunnymen. The only problem I have is that Bunny Hutches still cost 10 carrots to build, despite Bunnymen dropping less than a quarter of the carrots they used to.

Consider that it takes on average 16 Bunnymen kills to get the 4 bunny puffs that it takes to build a new hutch. In that number of kills you will now get 6 carrots, which is just over half of what it takes to build a new hutch.

The problem with this is that it makes you actively produce too many bunny puffs to actually use when you are trying to grow a bunny farm. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that carrots spoil, so they are both more scarce and a time limited resource.

While this can be supplemented with farming, I don't think it should have to be. Bunnymen used to be a very strong food source, but now they are about equally strong as other options. I don't think you should have to use farms to aid in the setup of bunny hutches when bunny hutches are a lot less powerful than they used to be.

I would love to see Bunny Hutches have their crafting cost reduced to 4 or 5 carrots each. This would make it so that Bunny Hutches are still expensive to build, but you can build up a Bunny Village without having to farm carrots in addition to farming Bunnymen.

[WhatTheCabbage]

Crops

[saimsadeek]

Um, thats his actual point? He doesnt want to have to farm carrots on top of the puffs which he will already be farming. So much work to setup a farm that was already incredibly nerfed. I can honestly see bunny farms being niche in their use from this point on, why not invest in pigs (who actually give you pigskin) or better yet goats (with guaranteed 2 meat)

[WereGoose]

I... don't see the problem here? I think the point is that you can't JUST farm bunnymen and logs to multiply them.  

[sawchuk519]

Quote

I think the point is that you can't JUST farm bunnymen and logs to multiply them.  

Why is this the point? Bunnymen are now a little worse than pigs. With the carrot cost so high, pigs are also cheaper to set up. I'd like to see bunnymen as a competitive option, not a strictly worse version of pig houses.

Consider: if you want meat, pigs are better, If you have a use for meat AND carrots, bunnymen are better. If you have to farm for carrots separately anyways, what is the point?

[WhatTheCabbage]

Bunnymen respawn everyday 

Pigmen respawn every 4 days

[Misuto]

8 minutes ago, TopNoob said:

Bunnymen respawn everyday 

Pigmen respawn every 4 days

Correct, so you have to farm bunnymen twice as often, thus using twice as much time to get as much meat from them as from pigs. You could take the time that you save and invest that into crops which will have a much higher return than a few carrots from bunnymen and thus net significantly more food. 

 

Given that time is the most valuable resource in the game, coupled with the fact that pig skin is far more useful than bunny puffs, pigmen are at a clear and overwhelming advantage, so thank you for agreeing with his point. 

 

---

 

To help hammer the point home, let's actually write out all the math over a 20 day period and see the differences here.

 

For this example, despite pig houses being cheaper and easier to multiply (given the carrot expense in the beta branch now), let's say that you have the same number of houses: 10.

 

Over this 20 day period, you'll be able to farm pigs 5 times, including one full moon harvest. So you'll have farmed 40 pigs and 10 werepigs. On average, this will provide you with  30 meat and 10 pig skins from the pigs and 20 meat and 10 pig skins from the werepigs for a grand total of 50 meat and 20 pigskins in a 20 day period. This only requires visiting the farm 5 times total, thus giving you well over 15 days and nights to do any other chores or to run other farms.

 

Over this same 20 day period, you'd be able to farm your bunnymen 20 times. So you'll have farmed 200 bunnymen. On average, this will provide 75 meat, 75 carrots, and 50 bunny puffs. This requires visiting the farm every single night and thus locking you into your base giving you very little time to run other farms, let alone actually leave your base.

 

If you want to save time and get the same amount of meat as the same sized pig farm (50 meat), you will need to run the farm 14 times, giving you a measly 6 free days compared to the 15 free days with the pig farm.

 

If you value carrots exactly as much as meat and simply want raw hunger values, you will still need to run your bunny farm 9 times to average the same food value, nearly twice as often and that is on the condition you actually value carrots as highly as you do meat.

 

I can confidently say that the carrots from bunnymen is near meaningless at this point given how cost effective, quick to set up, and profitable the new crop farming system is. A single whirlijig gives 4 tiles to farm on and allows 10 crops per tile. For that small price you could grow 40 carrots every 2-4 days on the current system, let's conservatively say that you harvest them only 5 times, this means you'd have 200 carrots from just a single set whirljig while putting near 0 effort into tending your crops as you shoot for just the second worst result (1 crop and 1 seed being very easy to hit with little to no care given to the crops). Thus the measly 75 you could get from bunnymen is insignificant and you have to work twice as hard to get the same amount of meat as pigmen. (That doesn't even take into account how awful carrots are to grow, you could get far more food in both autumn and winter using pumpkins/potatoes/garlic). 

 

In no way can beta power level bunny farms be compared to pig farms. They are twice as time consuming for the same meat result, and the other products it produces are far less valuable than the pig skins and time saved from a pig farm. 

[WereGoose]

You can farm bunnymen and pigs at the same time, so with a long enough world the distinction between which is better to farm would be moot. 
 

49 minutes ago, sawchuk519 said:

Bunnymen are now a little worse than pigs

If you want to compare values, 2 bunnymen would yield as much meat as a pig while having 4x the respawn rate and giving veggies for pierogis. Bunny hutch would yield 1.5 Carrots, 1.5 meat, and 1 bunnypuff every 4 days, while a pig house would yield .75 meat and .25 pigskin. So I don't think bunnymen are (Meaningfully) worse than pigs.

13 minutes ago, Misuto said:

Correct, so you have to farm bunnymen twice as often, thus using twice as much time to get as much meat from them as from pigs. You could take the time that you save and invest that into crops which will have a much higher return than a few carrots from bunnymen and thus net significantly more food. 

 

Given that time is the most valuable resource in the game, coupled with the fact that pig skin is far more useful than bunny puffs, pigmen are at a clear and overwhelming advantage, so thank you for agreeing with his point. 

If your goal is to make a farm that provides meat, bunnymen are still better. Since the point of a mob farm is to make a resource readily available. Simply having 1 Bunny and 4 anenemies would yield you meat equal to 2 pigs, without having much time commitment if you really value time. And if you want a large quantity of meat, then bunnies respawn much faster than pigs.

Now, if you just want a lot of meat every 20 or so days, then farming werepigs IS probably the best option. But Different farms are built for different reasons.

[Misuto]

1 minute ago, WereGoose said:

You can farm bunnymen and pigs at the same time, so with a long enough world the distinction between which is better to farm would be moot. 
 

If you want to compare values, 2 bunnymen would yield as much meat as a pig while having 4x the respawn rate and giving veggies for pierogis. Bunny hutch would yield 1.5 Carrots, 1.5 meat, and 1 bunnypuff every 4 days, while a pig house would yield .75 meat and .25 pigskin. So I don't think bunnymen are (Meaningfully) worse than pigs.

If your goal is to make a farm that provides meat, bunnymen are still better. Since the point of a mob farm is to make a resource readily available. Simply having 1 Bunny and 4 anenemies would yield you meat equal to 2 pigs, without having much time commitment if you really value time. And if you want a large quantity of meat, then bunnies respawn much faster than pigs.

Now, if you just want a lot of meat every 20 or so days, then farming werepigs IS probably the best option. But Different farms are built for different reasons.

 

Bunnymen do not give double the meat, If you actually farm them every single night they give 50% more meat, please refer to the example provided in my previous post for clarification. Bunnymen respawning faster is a moot point. They take 400% of the effort of a pig farm for 150% of the loot. That is not a fair pay out rate considering how much more difficult a bunny hutch is to make in the beta branch. 

 

Though this math is mostly to show that if the two farms are even comparable, why are bunny hutches significantly more expensive to make now? Not only does a pig farm provide nearly as much meat for a fraction of the effort, but they are far easier to multiply and expand your farm without having to do an entirely different and unrelated farm in order to build them; they simply take basic resources and pig skins. 

[WereGoose]

22 minutes ago, Misuto said:

 

Bunnymen do not give double the meat, If you actually farm them every single night they give 50% more meat, please refer to the example provided in my previous post for clarification. Bunnymen respawning faster is a moot point. They take 400% of the effort of a pig farm for 150% of the loot. That is not a fair pay out rate considering how much more difficult a bunny hutch is to make in the beta branch. 

 

Though this math is mostly to show that if the two farms are even comparable, why are bunny hutches significantly more expensive to make now? Not only does a pig farm provide nearly as much meat for a fraction of the effort, but they are far easier to multiply and expand your farm without having to do an entirely different and unrelated farm in order to build them; they simply take basic resources and pig skins. 

If you're dedicating the time to build a meat farm, the start up cost for bunnies is meaningfully costlier... If you build them from scratch. But let's be honest here, you start up a bunny farm by breaking 2-3 bunny villages. like how you break a pig village to make a pig farm.

Now, the average bunny hutches you make for 2 bunny villages are 8+ (depending on how generous the rabbits are to give their butts). While the average for breaking down 2 pig villages is *checks wiki* ~7. 

So, starting with the practical baseline. IF you want to get a large amount of meat with little time investment. build the pig houses and farm them on full moons. 

If you want to make crockpot dishes like pierogis, then I'd say the bunnymen give far more value (Since you'd use the useless carrots for the veg).

And if you just want to farm up an absurd amount of meat... bunnies give much higher yields if you want to fill bundle wraps of meat (and carrots) for your needs. 

TL;DR: Pigs and bunnies are separate farms you'd want to make for different purposes. Pigs give way more up front, but bunnies give way more food if you plan to grind them out over a period of time.

Edit: Oh, and bunnymen farms are usually also spider farms (and beequeen farms if you want max efficiency, but I digress) so you'd be pulling double duty in making farms

[ShadowDuelist]

Why is everyone forgetting than bunnymen are much better warriors than the pigmen?

I think this nerf shifted the focus of bunnymen from a food source, to a very strong way to almost auto farm bee queen,  dragonfly, spiders, etc. It was always super good, but we just got used to it being too cheap. 

It also opens room to Wurt merms being a thing since when Wurt came out, the usual complain was “Why would I bother to build those when bunnymen are cheaper and I can do that with any free character”. Now it’s probably around the same time effort, but merms guards are stronger and re spawn faster, so overall she gets a better “army”.

[Misuto]

2 minutes ago, WereGoose said:

If you're dedicating the time to build a meat farm, the start up cost for bunnies is meaningfully costlier... If you build them from scratch. But let's be honest here, you start up a bunny farm by breaking 2-3 bunny villages. like how you break a pig village to make a pig farm.

Now, the average bunny hutches you make for 2 bunny villages are 8+ (depending on how generous the rabbits are to give their butts). While the average for breaking down 2 pig villages is *checks wiki* ~7.

You are discounting the existence of pig head torches around touchstones and in the swamp in order to skew the math in favor of start up costs of bunny farms vs pig farms. 

 

3 minutes ago, WereGoose said:

If you want to make crockpot dishes like pierogis, then I'd say the bunnymen give far more value (Since you'd use the useless carrots for the veg).

If you want crockpot dishes like pierogi you would use pig or goat farms and the new farming system which has radically higher yields than bunnyfarms and requires less time as proven in the previous comments. 

 

4 minutes ago, WereGoose said:

And if you just want to farm up an absurd amount of meat... bunnies give much higher yields if you want to fill bundle wraps of meat (and carrots) for your needs. 

Again, you are using deceptive word choice in an attempt to prove a false point. If you want to spend 400% more time farming for 50% more reward then sure, go for bunnymen farms. Another way to word that, if you want your time spent farming to be worth 2.6x more meat results, build a pig farm. 

 

6 minutes ago, WereGoose said:

TL;DR: Pigs and bunnies are separate farms you'd want to make for different purposes. Pigs give way more up front, but bunnies give way more food if you plan to grind them out over a period of time.

This is true, if you want to spend 4x the amount of time farming for 1.5x the reward then bunnymen are worth it, but it ignores how investing the extra time into nearly any other type of farm would yield more rewards. This then goes on to ignore how bunny farms are now also tediously time consuming to expand ultimately meaning that people who do want to invest in a bunny farm will just multiply it using green gems because the carrot price is too high in a world where they now drop 3/16ths of the carrots that they previously dropped. 

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Why is everyone forgetting than bunnymen are much better warriors than the pigmen?

I think this nerf shifted the focus of bunnymen from a food source, to a very strong way to almost auto farm bee queen,  dragonfly, spiders, etc. It was always super good, but we just got used to it being too cheap. 

Bunnymen are still worse than catapults, tentacles, merms, and ovens. Factor in now how bunny hutches are more expensive (given that they drop 3/16ths of the carrots they previously dropped) and why would you invest the time in a slower and more expensive farm when quicker and cheaper to set up competitive options exist? I'd say the nerf to the cost impacts them most in this regard. No one is asking for them to be buffed as a food source, just that the devs remember that by changing their drop table from 2 carrots each to 0.375 carrots, suddenly the cost of a hutch has skyrocketed nearly 5x over. 

[WereGoose]

3 minutes ago, Misuto said:

Again, you are using deceptive word choice in an attempt to prove a false point. If you want to spend 400% more time farming for 50% more reward then sure, go for bunnymen farms. Another way to word that, if you want your time spent farming to be worth 2.6x more meat results, build a pig farm

Ok, For more specific wording here... IF you want to dedicate time to filling up bundles (AKA that is what you are doing for that time period). Bunnymen give more yield per hutch, and would such take less days to fill up a bundle. While pigs would have downtime in filling it up, causing it to take more days(You have more free time, but that time spent isn't filling up bundles).

[Misuto]

15 minutes ago, WereGoose said:

Edit: Oh, and bunnymen farms are usually also spider farms (and beequeen farms if you want max efficiency, but I digress) so you'd be pulling double duty in making farms

Many alternative auto farms exist for these, with the price of bunny hutches going up over 5x, people will simply opt for the other solutions. Bunnymen absolutely needed to be nerfed, but the cost of their houses shouldn't be nerfed to this degree (and was likely an unintentional oversight by the devs). 

1 minute ago, WereGoose said:

Ok, For more specific wording here... IF you want to dedicate time to filling up bundles (AKA that is what you are doing for that time period). Bunnymen give more yield per hutch, and would such take less days to fill up a bundle. While pigs would have downtime in filling it up, causing it to take more days(You have more free time, but that time spent isn't filling up bundles).

Why is that time not spent filling bundles? Take the extra time that you have and farm crops. This gives you more veggies and meats than beta branch bunny farms and is likely less time consuming.

[WereGoose]

 

3 minutes ago, Misuto said:

Why is that time not spent filling bundles? Take the extra time that you have and farm crops. This gives you more veggies and meats than beta branch bunny farms and is likely less time consuming.

I thought we looking at these farms in a vacuum? Building an all-purpose farm since we're looking at these farms individually... If we're looking at multiple farms, then why not just make both. You'd be making both anyway in the late game, and you get twice the profit.

[Misuto]

Just now, WereGoose said:

I thought we looking at these farms in a vacuum? Building an all-purpose farm since we're looking at these farms individually... If we're looking at multiple farms, then why not just make both. You'd be making both anyway in the late game, and you get twice the profit.

I honestly see no reason in bunny farms post nerf. As a mega baser they just seem like a waste of space mathematically speaking - at least for me. For reference this is my current bunny farm:

 

That's 100 hutches needing 1,000 carrots. Even if you give me the first 20 for free from hammering existing ones, 800 carrots needed to expand it would mean killing 2,133 bunnymen on average.

 

Compare this to an equivalently sized pig farm where you'd only have to kill 320 pigs on average to grow the same next extra 80 houses. 

 

That's what we're looking at: the cost to expand large farms. 320 pigs vs 2,133 bunnies. That is a ridiculous amount of extra time farming - 6.66x as much! Factor in to that that carrots spoil so you're also paying the cost to bundle and unbundle carrots during the process of expansion making it even more expensive. Even if you can farm bunnymen 4x faster, it takes 6.66x longer to expand the farm, and given that farm size tends to snowball, this means you'll get to an end game finalized pig farm well over twice as fast for a fraction of the work.

 

No one is saying that their drop rate nerf was undeserved. But the most likely unintentional price hike on just building the hutches was. Even if you believe they are strictly better than pigs or any other farm in a vacuum, are they really, in their new beta state, 6.66x better?

[sawchuk519]

We seem to have gotten off topic, so lets move back towards the original topic of the carrot cost of creating bunny hutches. Comparing pigs to bunnies is not really relevant to the discussion. The main point was I don't think that bunny hutches are strong enough to justify needing to set up crop farms to afford to multiply the hutches.

28 minutes ago, WereGoose said:

let's be honest here, you start up a bunny farm by breaking 2-3 bunny villages.

I understand that most of the time, bunny hutches aren't multiplied and are just hammered to move them to your base. That is irrelevant to my point and wouldn't meaningfully change if the recipe was altered. If the recipe was different, hammering the hutches would just drop less carrots.

With the live version, you get 22 more carrots on average than you need to craft a hutch. I am well aware that is an absurd amount of profit. With the current beta version, you get 4 less carrots on average than you need to craft a hutch. I am suggesting this be changed so that you get a measly 1 or 2 carrot profit from crafting a new hutch.

Attempting to multiply bunnymen in the current implementation feels bad because the carrot cost is prohibitively high. It was originally that high because bunnymen produced an absurd amount of carrots. Since that is no longer the case, it makes sense that the carrot cost of hutches is reduced as a result.

[ShadowDuelist]

8 minutes ago, Misuto said:

9 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Bunnymen are still worse than catapults, tentacles, merms, and ovens. Factor in now how bunny hutches are more expensive (given that they drop 3/16ths of the carrots they previously dropped) and why would you invest the time in a slower and more expensive farm when quicker and cheaper to set up competitive options exist? I'd say the nerf to the cost impacts them most in this regard.  

 I think we got used to them being too cheap and we learned the game that way, which is now giving a hard time to understand that either they need more effort into them (like the extra step of a carrot farm) or they need measures we never considered before, like spending your original green gems into deconstructing and using the construction amulet to craft twice as much of them. 

In the end having a large enough bunny army lets you reliably kill dragonfly and bee queen with almost no preparation every 20 days, and depending on your map you can use the same army for both fights (I have a world where both biomes are next to each other so I usually make a raid of both bosses with the bunnymen). So overtime your green gems effort will yield a larger reward than the invested.

The fact that catapults and merms are better (Tentacles are not better, IMHO , they are immobile, the damage they take is permanent, and they have a high risk of killing you or your teammates) is okay in my book because they are the strong point of the characters that made them, mostly  being their main perk. If you want to focus your whole build from the start into army making you’d probably do better going Wurt, but if you want a strong army as any other non-Wurt character, you can also get them, it’s just that you now know it’s not cheap (and requires you to farm)

Its a long shot comparison but it’s the same principle of Wigfrid helmets, to mass farm football helmets you need to farm pigs, make a setup or werepig them or something, where wigfrid gets a better helmet for almost no work at all, she literally gets the materials raining over her head by strolling In the caves. Her personal perk is to make that little side of the game cheaper and simpler.

I am not against the hutches becoming cheaper, I just don’t think they should be cheap enough so you can keep multiplying them by just killing bunnymen like we used to. 

[sawchuk519]

6 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I am not against the hutches becoming cheaper, I just don’t think they should be cheap enough so you can keep multiplying them by just killing bunnymen like we used to. 

I don't agree with your conclusion, despite understanding a lot of the points that you mentioned. I think the nerf to bunnymen loot has already made the houses expensive enough without requiring us to look elsewhere for materials.

If the recipe is altered in the way that I have recommended, instead of profiting 22 carrots and 12 meat when you make a hutch as you do now, you would profit only 1/2 carrots and 6 meat. Farming up the bunny hutches is a much bigger chore when it provides less than a third of the food it used to. With the reduced food drops, you are more likely to have to spend time doing other chores while multiplying them to sustain yourself.

Before multiplying bunny hutches was basically free since the main thing you wanted was the meat and you got too many carrots to reasonably use. Now multiplying bunny hutches is actually a time sink because it is no longer a free by product of one of the most efficient food farms in the game.

[Misuto]

2 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I am not against the hutches becoming cheaper, I just don’t think they should be cheap enough so you can keep multiplying them by just killing bunnymen like we used to. 

But then why is it ok for Pigs to multiply from just doing pig stuff + basic resources? (and also multiplying more than twice as fast)

 

Why is it ok for crops to multiply by just doing crop stuff + basic resources?

 

Why is it ok for bee farms to multiply (to a limit) from just doing bee stuff? (To a limit as you can only get so many honeycombs until being reliant on bee queen and Klaus for more)

 

Why is it ok for merm houses to multiply by just doing merm stuff + basic resources? 

 

Rhetorical questions aside, each other competitive and existing farm can also self replicate while utilizing what you have and feeding in basic resources. It just seems weird that in order to kill bunnymen you also have to pick up a hoe and get your hands dirty in a different way. 

 

Lowering the cost of hutches to 6 carrots would mean that you'd get carrots and bunny puffs at roughly the correct average rate to multiply your farm while giving you 0 carrots profit while doing this farm, you'd only be getting the 0.375 meat per bunny during the process of building it up. That's a lot of time spent farming for very little output until you are done. This also means that hammering down houses would only give 3 carrots now, so this wouldn't impact the initial cost to relocate hutches. If the devs wanted them to be more lined up with how pig houses work, then they could lower the cost to 5, meaning you'd still get 3 carrots from hammering so you'd technically be getting more carrots than needed initially to build; exactly how pig houses take 3 cut stone to make and you get 2 for hammering them giving you a slight profit in cut stones when you are building your initial farm. I'd just like to see them be in line with other farms, I guess it's just a difference in opinions. 

[ShadowDuelist]

7 minutes ago, Misuto said:

Rhetorical questions aside, each other competitive and existing farm can also self replicate while utilizing what you have and feeding in basic resources. It just seems weird that in order to kill bunnymen you also have to pick up a hoe and get your hands dirty in a different way. 

I understand and it's a fair point. I suppose the devs in this case didn't want farming to become like fishing, something they put a lot of effort into but ends up being rarely used. How it is now, its a completely new concept and it adds value to the new farming system since its not only for food, given how strong bunny armies can be.

But of course that would require a whole trend of costs rebalancing of many other things which would probably be a mess, and the easiest solution is just lowering the costs of the hutches.

I like the idea that bunny hutches require you to do a different job, perhaps going in that trend they could always drop at least a puff, of have a higher puff drop rate, then with a farm it would be far more profitable to multiply them. But like I said, it would require a complete change of the base concept.

[Well-met]

As said before, bunnymen respawn four times faster than pigs and are far better fighters.

Don't change a thing.

[Misuto]

54 minutes ago, Well-met said:

As said before, bunnymen respawn four times faster than pigs and are far better fighters.

Don't change a thing.

As said before, they require twice the farming to get the same profit and the fighting skills are far below the curve of other existing methods to deal with the same problems.

 

Change the cost of hutches to be on par with other existing options.

[Well-met]

5 minutes ago, Misuto said:

As said before, they require twice the farming to get the same profit and the fighting skills are far below the curve of other existing methods to deal with the same problems.

 

Change the cost of hutches to be on par with other existing options.

how about revert the loot nerf entirely

but instead disable race infighting

[Misuto]

Just now, Well-met said:

how about revert the loot nerf entirely

but instead disable race infighting

This would just be undoing a completely and well deserved nerf.

 

Civil wars are convenient, but outside of the early game or new players, are entirely a moot point when it comes to what made pre nerf bunnymen op. You'd have to also remove catapult farms and oven designs.

 

They dropped way too much loot before, as mentioned previously, When you were expanding a bunnyfarm before, by the time you earned 4 rabbit puffs on average (16 bunnymen) you'd have earned 32 carrots. That gave you the 10 for a new hutch and an addition and frankly absurd 22 carrots of pure profit or 275 hunger of bonus uncooked food. 

 

No one wants bunnymen to dominate the meta (as they previously did), the original poster is just suggesting to rebalance the cost of their structures to be more in line with their new (and totally deserved) nerfed drop rate. In the beta branch, killing 16 rabbits for the 4 bunny puffs now will only give 6 carrots on average. This flips the script and makes carrots the more limiting resource and leaves you with excess bunny puffs. Dropping the cost to 6 carrots per hutch would still be a massive nerf as you're net gaining 0 carrots (compared to the previous 22). This just makes it more reasonable to self multiply a rabbit farm just as you can do with any other competitive farm. New crop farming is also great, but it just seems odd that just bunnymen require an entirely different type of farm to efficiently expand it.