Load game bug

[4of20]

Any chance of fixing the bug that resets the printing pod ever time you load? its been there since the game first went to early access and I am hoping it can be fixed by full release, I constantly abuse it in the beginning of a game, just constantly loading every time the printing pod is ready till i get a dupe I want, I know you could say "just dont do it" but that really isn't a good answer to the problem, It also makes it impossible to hold a dupe you really want in the printing pod after reloading. 

[KittenIsAGeek]

2 hours ago, 4of20 said:

Any chance of fixing the bug that resets the printing pod ever time you load? its been there since the game first went to early access and I am hoping it can be fixed by full release, I constantly abuse it in the beginning of a game, just constantly loading every time the printing pod is ready till i get a dupe I want, I know you could say "just dont do it" but that really isn't a good answer to the problem, It also makes it impossible to hold a dupe you really want in the printing pod after reloading. 

I'm not sure that's a bug.  AFAIK, the only state information the printing pod holds in the save file is its progress until printing.

[4of20]

if it isn't a bug then they might as well have a "reload printing pod" button with no cooldown to cut out having to load 10 times till you get what you want

 

[Sasza22]

It`s kind of an exploit. You can get different outcomes by loading the game multiple times. That said you could do the same if you saved the game right before the pod goes active. Only way to prevent that would be generating all choices at the start of the game and storing them in the save file.

[KittenIsAGeek]

41 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

It`s kind of an exploit. You can get different outcomes by loading the game multiple times. 

Here's my humble two cents on the subject: You're playing a solo game wherein you have direct access to pretty much every single detail.  Not happy with the number of wheezewarts? Spawn some more.  Don't like the colors of your shinebugs? Load a mod.  Want more geysers? Edit your config files.  You can change how much food and air your dupes need and how easily they get diseases.  You can (with a bit of effort) create new buildings, new materials, and new biomes.

So lets say you're playing a dice game by yourself at your desk.  You shake a pair of dice up in your hands and spill them out in front of you.  This would be akin to the ONI printing pod spawning new printables.  Not happy with your roll? Pick up the dice, shake them, and toss them again -- or re-load ONI.  

Or are you comparing ONI to the Solitaire that ships with windows?  Pick a particular seed at the start and you'll get the same game, every single time.  Oh, wait.. you can cheat at that too!  Just pick a seed that you know the pattern for winning.

Oh, darn it! I wasn't supposed to teach you how to exploit dice or solitaire.. my bad.  =^.^=

[RonEmpire]

8 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

It`s kind of an exploit. You can get different outcomes by loading the game multiple times. That said you could do the same if you saved the game right before the pod goes active. Only way to prevent that would be generating all choices at the start of the game and storing them in the save file.

Actually they don't need to 'generate anything at the start and 'storing it per say.   (other than a specific "seed")

It's entirely possible to do  "Randomization" based on "seeds".   So depending on your "map seed"  a random generator could just work off the seed and be dished out to you in a fixed state.

That's how 'seed' works.  so the print pod could just be a specific seed.   They could generate a one time seed. so each play through of the same map seed might get different  random pod seeds from within to make it feel more playable with the same map seed yet not having the same pod seed.

[KittenIsAGeek]

So.. your "fix" for the "problem" is to remove the randomness from the random generator and make it predictable based on seed.  "OK, I've got seed 45, that means that on the sixth production from my arch I'll get a dupe that has buff, diver's lungs, and is interested in supply, operate, and research. SWEET!"

...

I don't agree.   But hey, I bet you could write a mod for that.

[RonEmpire]

No.  It won't be predictable since the seed can be randomized   after the map seed starts.  Which allows for each play through of the same map to always be randomized.-   it's just my suggestion for how to fix  the save scum.   obviously this isn't a new problem as other games do this already.

For me I personally don't care.

It's just a matter of what the developers intend it to be.   IF its considered okay to save scum,  save/reload to get new results.  Then they need to just allow for us to have a button to refresh the choices.  rather than force us to go through the laggy save/reload.  Or add in a cool down for reshuffling. 

If it's not intended for us to save scum for new results, then they ought to figure out how to prevent us from doing it.

That's pretty much the gist of the discussion here and summarizing what people are saying.

[KittenIsAGeek]

3 hours ago, RonEmpire said:

It's just a matter of what the developers intend it to be.   IF its considered okay to save scum,  save/reload to get new results.  Then they need to just allow for us to have a button to refresh the choices.  rather than force us to go through the laggy save/reload.  Or add in a cool down for reshuffling. 

If it's not intended for us to save scum for new results, then they ought to figure out how to prevent us from doing it.

I can see your point of view, but I don't agree with it.  You're essentially saying that they either need to eliminate "save-scumming" or make it easier.  Why not just leave it as it is?  Its not harming game play, and the players who really really REALLY want to find the absolute PERFECT dupe can just use a save file editor after the fact.  If they're after the perfect extra resource, they can simply turn on sandbox mode.

I don't really understand is why saving and reloading to get new random choices is considered by some to be a "bug" for a game that that is already entirely open-ended.  If I continue along with that line of thinking then.. they should encrypt the save file so details can't be mucked with.  Oh, and they should remove the modding system since it can give some an unfair advantage.  As long as we're at it, lets just make a set number of specific asteroid maps, so that everyone everywhere is on equal footing -- without the potential of getting the "perfect" combination  of geysers for their play style.  Hey, lets also make sure that the meteors fall predictably because otherwise someone could figure out a way to exploit the randomness of meteor impacts.  We'll also need to disable the sandbox mode, and make sure players can't choose advanced settings like 'Disease: Immune."

I mean, from my point of view, I'm wondering where you draw the line in eliminating the "potential for exploit."  Is it honestly an exploit that the current printer pod's random choices aren't saved?  Or is it an exploit that you can re-load the previous cycle's save file, before the pod "pops," and get a new set?  If its both cases, then you're saying that once a game is started, all printer pod outputs need to be pre-determined for the rest of the game.  If its only the first case, then I'm terribly confused, because you can get the exact same effect simply by loading an older save.

Or, is the "bug" the fact that your printer pops up with some good choices, but you decide not to choose immediately and figure you'll choose later.  But you end up quitting the game and come back later and.. your choices are gone, replaced with an entirely different set.  I've been under the assumption that the problem was "you can save and reload until you get the perfect choice," but if its this case, then perhaps you have an argument.  "I've got 12 dupes right now, the dupe in the pod is perfect for my 13th, but my base can't sustain him yet. I'd like to leave him in the pod for a few more cycles while I get my base ready, but if I quit for any reason I'll loose him."

IDK.  I'm trying to see your side, but it doesn't make sense to me.  *shrug*  I don't see it as a bug, or an exploit, or a feature.

 

[4of20]

The issue is both really, by your logic the whole game should just be debug mode and there really is no need for dupes since your solution to everything is "just use a save editor" the second i use debug mode to change something in the game I'm playing will be the same time that I uninstall it and never play again, cheating ruins games for me, save scumming is on the boarder of cheating, but the real issue/bug is it not saving the choices in the printer, I don't even think it would be that hard for the save file to save the state of the printer to be honest, and that would fix both problems, would it totally solve save scumming? no, but it would make it harder and arguable not worth it, I don't really understand your opposition to fixing this very obvious problem that has been in the game since it was first released.

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

4 minutes ago, 4of20 said:

The issue is both really, by your logic the whole game should just be debug mode and there really is no need for dupes since your solution to everything is "just use a save editor" the second i use debug mode to change something in the game I'm playing will be the same time that I uninstall it and never play again, cheating ruins games for me, save scumming is on the boarder of cheating, but the real issue/bug is it not saving the choices in the printer, I don't even think it would be that hard for the save file to save the state of the printer to be honest, and that would fix both problems, would it totally solve save scumming? no, but it would make it harder and arguable not worth it, I don't really understand your opposition to fixing this very obvious problem that has been in the game since it was first released.

Personally when the pod pops up with choices, I either chose something or I reject everything and move on.  I've never saved and reloaded to get different choices because I don't see a point in it.    Its a complete non-issue in my opinion as to whether or not the choices are saved, or pre-determined, or made easier.   So I'm playing devil's advocate here because IMHO, there isn't an issue but plenty of people seem to be making it one.

I guess what I need to do is figure out what the definition of cheating is within the domain of a single-player sandbox.  Is it using mods to change how the game is played?  Is the sandbox tool cheating?  Is choosing a particular seed because you know what geysers are available in it?  What about starting a game  with diseases disabled?  Or using a water sieve to cool your base?

Basically each of us, as individual players, are free to make a choice of where to draw the line for what we consider cheating.  If ONI were a cooperative game, then there would need to be a stricter set of rules to keep everyone on the same page.  But it isn't.   You can make the game as easy or as difficult as you want it to be -- and that's the big appeal in my opinion.  If you don't like neutronium, you can use a mod that eliminates it from your map -- and someone else is going to consider that cheating and exploiting the system.  Which individual is correct?

[4of20]

You are writing a lot of words that are completely empty, this obviously doesn't concern or affect you because you are just a perfect person, so maybe you should turn off notifications about it and move on eh?

[KittenIsAGeek]

I never said I was perfect. I said I was trying to understand why some people are considering the printer pod "load game" issue a bug and others consider it an exploit.

[Lali-Lop]

I agree with @KittenIsAGeek.  If you're determined to save-scumming until you get exactly what you want, you might as well just use sandbox to spawn it yourself.  Only difference is saving yourself the time/hassle of reloading.  If I am ever inclined to "break the rules", there are tools already included to let me do that.  Allowing the player to endlessly refresh the results seems like a waste to me.  And making the results predetermined would ruin the fun of it, in my opinion.  The way it works now is only an "exploit" because people are abusing it.  Acknowledging the behavior as cheating, doing it anyway, and then blaming the mechanic seems backwards to me.  There is nothing in the game that makes it feel like you have to do it unlike some previous exploits.  You gain no benefit from it.  I get the impression that some have turned it into some kind of "gambling" even though there is no reason to.

But to get back to the original point of this post, I also would like if the printer pod's results were saved (in the case of reserving a dupe for later, as mentioned.)  I'd imagine this is perhaps just a problem the devs didn't foresee.

[Dead Squirrel]

I had one time that I couldn't decide which dupe to print and saved the game to figure it out later. Reloading changed the state, so that was confusing. But usually it's not an issue. If they added it great, but the game isn't broken as is.

 

As to why you're asking for this, I'm kinda with @KittenIsAGeek. You're asking the devs to stop you from save scumming. How is that not like using debug tools? It is meta gaming the system and abusing an out-of-gameworld exploit. Try not to do it unless it will absolutely hurt your satisfaction in a game.