Steamturbine deletes steam

[Rainbowdesign]

This steam turbine halves the steam in the room in one cycle.

 

At the beginning of the cycle there are about 10-20 kg steam on each field, with so much steam the supply under the turbine is satisfied and it runs its switched off in the first screenshot.

At the end of the cycle there are only 5-7kg steam on each field.

Compositon: top: 6kg hydrogen, middle 2kg oxygen lower when working 15kg steam.

 

 

[avc15]

It's because of the trick you're using to establish startup conditions, not the steam generator. The exhaust is dumping straight into that low pressure layer of hydrogen. This is the same issue as electrolyzers losing some hydrogen. Some of your steam will be deleted.

If they fixed deletion, the gas layering is somewhat abusive (some may call it exploity because of the "trick" you're using to fool the genny's start conditions - in a more extreme case it can be used to eliminate any need for pumping)

If you want mass conservation, you need the tiles where steam is exhausting to only be filled with steam.

[yoakenashi]

33 minutes ago, avc15 said:

If you want mass conservation, you need the tiles where steam is exhausting to only be filled with steam.

I had actually suggested something like this in my steam turbine fixes suggestion topic. The problem is that before the steam turbine starts there isn’t any steam above it.

One solution I didn’t suggest then but will suggest here is to see if any of the tiles can be combined.

A simplified 2 tile example: If you want to output steam to one of the two tiles containing oxygen, combine the oxygen into one tile and then output steam to the other. This conserves the mass but makes a very high pressure oxygen tile. The steam generator wouldn’t run if you had 5 different non-steam gasses above it: unlikely to happen.

What do you think? I am just brainstorming and could have missed something.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

I have been waiting for Klei's reaction since 300 days ago.

Pressure cheating, temperature cheating, flow reducing, steam removing. You can find all of them in the following post.

I hope Klei didn't intended to keep them as features

 

[Rainbowdesign]

I really wonder how klei intended the turbine to be used. For me using it with hydrogen and oxygen is the most obvious way.

And if they wanted us to use it that way steam deletion here is a bug. Actually it is a bug anyways i think, a "real" steam turbine would not just let steam disappear no matter what you do with it.

I am quite annoyed with it, i just wanted to use the abundant magma on my resource tight rock to power refinerys in a normal non exploit way.

But it does not work so ultimately i will now make a new most exploity steam turbine because i tinkered enough with it. For my next update i will make the pressure differential in my modded mini steam turbine -1ton or so and never again look at the "normal steam turbine".

[DrPerec]

Here works fine

Have english sub

[avc15]

11 hours ago, Rainbowdesign said:

I really wonder how klei intended the turbine to be used. For me using it with hydrogen and oxygen is the most obvious way.

To me it seems pretty likely klei intended for the atmosphere below it to be high pressure superheated steam,

and for the atmosphere above it to be cooler, low pressure steam.

Because that at least somewhat resembles how real steam turbines work. Other gases in the mix anywhere should cause some kind of problem, and you should be actively trying to purge them from your system. (again because steam plants in real life have entire dedicated systems for such "air ejection" as they call it)

Putting a layer of "other" gas above it so the building senses a D/P and you have perpetual motion of steam, I don't believe you can call that either intuitive or even slightly realistic. It amounts to a perpetual motion machine whether you're using gas layering or a liquid ladder:

But, those are some easy ways to make it work. (door pumps are a little bit less objectionable but still have a realism problem of their own - compressing a hot gas with a positive displacement compressor should take a LOT of energy; condensing/pumping liquid& then boiling again should be cheaper)

For me the obvious challenge to making it efficient (I define as energy positive and low heat waste), since the input HAS to be superheated steam, is heat recovery. Without heat recovery the thing is energy neutral and just serves to delete heat. (which actually has a grain of realism to it)

 

[Rainbowdesign]

On 2/5/2019 at 8:47 PM, avc15 said:

To me it seems pretty likely klei intended for the atmosphere below it to be high pressure superheated steam,

and for the atmosphere above it to be cooler, low pressure steam.

Because that at least somewhat resembles how real steam turbines work. Other gases in the mix anywhere should cause some kind of problem, and you should be actively trying to purge them from your system. (again because steam plants in real life have entire dedicated systems for such "air ejection" as they call it)

Putting a layer of "other" gas above it so the building senses a D/P and you have perpetual motion of steam, I don't believe you can call that either intuitive or even slightly realistic. It amounts to a perpetual motion machine whether you're using gas layering or a liquid ladder:

But, those are some easy ways to make it work. (door pumps are a little bit less objectionable but still have a realism problem of their own - compressing a hot gas with a positive displacement compressor should take a LOT of energy; condensing/pumping liquid& then boiling again should be cheaper)

For me the obvious challenge to making it efficient (I define as energy positive and low heat waste), since the input HAS to be superheated steam, is heat recovery. Without heat recovery the thing is energy neutral and just serves to delete heat. (which actually has a grain of realism to it)

 

I did research steam turbines now.

There are some points the steam turbines calculator agrees with:

The input temperature must be usually 350°C or higher otherwise the steam could atleast partly condense in the turbine and the water might tear the turbine apart due to the high velocitys i think.

The pressure in the inlet must be VERY high like 40-50 bars.

There are however points the calculator disagrees with:

Usually those turbines are used in the 200kw to mw power plants i really doubt there is a turbine producing 2000W.

The consumption rate depends on how you calculate time:

0.007311kg/s or 13.16 kg/kwh with 50 bar input steam (at a theoretical 2000W plant).

50 bar is really high pressure

 

Now i wonder how to formulate a new approach to the turbine from this:

 

        float outtemp = 200f;
        float intemp = 350f;
        float zerokelvin = 273.15f;
        float spinuptime = 60 * 24; // The idea is to have it a cycle to spin up so its not so easy to restart.
        float pumpkg = 0.01f; // needs to be multiplied with 5 and is only a 1/100 of the steam the normal turbine uses.
        float powerout = 10000; // For bigger bases
        float requireddifferential = 60f * 1000f; // the tricky part with that setting you need to have 60 000 kg steam under each field below the turbine also this is my main question: do you consider this possible or rather not?

correction i looked again and this seems to be possible too:

Inlet pressure 10 bar   outtemp = 101,4f;

[avc15]

I don't understand your question really, it seems like you're trying to calculate heat extracted by a real-life steam cycle?

Real steam cycles (the rankine cycle) have an added layer of complexity, in that the temperature, pressure & energy of the steam are all linked together. In the game, raising temperature does not also cause pressure to go up. In the game, exhausting some mass does not also cause the temperature to go down.

I don't really know how to answer it, except to say that you can't use efficiency or power calculations from life to try to mimic what's going on in the game. 

[Rainbowdesign]

11 hours ago, avc15 said:

I don't understand your question really, it seems like you're trying to calculate heat extracted by a real-life steam cycle?

I want to make a steam generator alternative that is less hard to use but does otherwise the same.

 

 

Right now the device does use 5kg/s steam. I feel thats pretty excessive not only in terms of pumping but also in terms of heat digestion.

also to get the steam under the turbine is rather complicated which seems to efficiently only work with exploits assuming the door pump is also an exploit - well doors are certainly not made for shoving around gases (i have browsed the setups and i have not seen any efficient non exploit steam turbine on the forums i have searched for it).

 

I want to make a better alternative.

right now my approach is: reduce the steam kg/s to something about 1kg/s or 0.5kg/s and reduce the steam output temperature in turn to 102°C have it still using comparable heat and make it possible to condense the output steam to let it fall under the turbine again.