Transformers wasting energy, misreporting downstream wattage draw, and overloading for no reason


TOOK14
  • Branch: Live Branch Version: Windows Pending

After setting up my power system automation, I noticed I was wasting power with empty batteries, and a couple upstream parts of my circuit were reporting massive power draw, several times the total possible draw.  After consulting the internet, I was clued into transformer bugs in previous updates, and sure enough, removing the transformers removed the wasted power and ghost power draw.  Unfortunately my automation for sensing power levels cannot work properly without transformers :(

Inescapable.sav


Steps to Reproduce
I'm not sure how to replicate the bug, but hopefully the bug is preserved in my world save. I do suspect it has some interaction with building multiple transformers in series.

Status: Pending

This issue has not been confirmed by a developer yet.


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If the output of a transformer is tied to the input rail it reports the entire consumption Up to the transformer On the main rail.   I've seen this happen with transformers accidentally wired in feedback loops.

Edited by Kabrute

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I thought of that, I don't have any miswirings, load up my save if you'd like to double check me.  I even tried making a feedback loop after tearing them down and rebuilding them, just to try and fix it for that world.  Also, we're talking about readings of 20+ kW when my whole system isn't pulling more than 15kW at a given time.  Once it even read over 30kW and was overloading my hevi wire.

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Ok so this is going to take One big picture then several little pictures and some explanations of why you are seeing this, you did not create a feedback loop through your battery banks, you fed everything in your base into a single power rail, then ran that through transformers into another power rail....image.thumb.png.8e3d7c52c8493b7acb8503e25edd0516.pngimage.thumb.png.22f20ff8c254945ad62f64c98477d38f.png

This shows us that your Nat gas genes are at the back side of your bases entire power grid, and the outputs from 3 transformers coming from it are tied directly together to feed everything else you are doing are setting a 12kw limit, very nice.  But your arranging more than 100kw worth of transformers to pull off that rail.

image.png

image.pnge

From what I can see, the circuit with your coal and hydrogen plants, is all one central rail feeding atleast a dozen transformers.  thats a solid 40-50kw/s potential, but you have an average of 1kw on every single one of them.  I can calculate more than 10kw draw just in one area, and thats not counting every pump, valve, and musher in your base.  But your producing over 13kw image.thumb.png.17a5364a432d6f7111afa0abf01f1991.png

Throttling it down to 8kw to feed a batter bank image.thumb.png.54c09cb19c3f6db749aa7b27959059e2.png

then trying to step it back up to 12kw, before putting more than 20kw draw on the rail. 

 

And while you say, at a given time, your not using automation with xors or not gates to guarantee it and so random sync is killing your setup and the massive battery banks are letting it happen.

image.thumb.png.99df5d1cf2a5880252bb8dc9157512ad.png

replace these with 2 more transformers feeding left to right as the three beneath.

 

image.thumb.png.a02b211c01b013c4ab9533383f4adf00.pngBypass this bottleneck altogether, you don't need it, even for your automation to prevent excess power, you aren't getting enough across as is so sidestep these and find a work around or you will keep getting the rolling black outs leading to forced power sync when the batteries DO get enough juice from runners, hydros, coal, and 8/12kw that bleeds through from the natties, this will smooth out your power plan, bring that disabled petrol back online and you will be floating about 15kw which should power everything and prevent the rolling blackout sync lock breakdown you are experiencing.

Edited by Kabrute
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Ok, so this is something I'm foggy on, do transformers have an output limit?  As far as I've read on the wiki and reddit, no one's made real mention of transformers having any sort of watt limit, but my personal experience lead me to using multiple for such a large draw.  The reason for that bottleneck was for automation purposes, my batteries are/were set up as reserve power, primary bank, and top end buffer to prevent any wasted power, as the nature of the battery sensors is they can only sense when a given circut's batteries are empty.  I'll make modifications immediately based on your advice, but please tell me how much the tiny end of the transformer can put out, that's really critical info, at least for me.  Thank you very much for this.

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So stepping up to 5 transformers seems to do the trick.  I now have the problem of my shut off sensor triggering too early, but that's a separate issue.  From what you wrote, I'm guessing transformers have a max output of 4kW, in which case I shouldn't need to expand my transformer steps again, unless I decide to go to conductive wire for some mega project.  In any case, thanks again for your help, and my apologies for submitting a false bug report, I simply missed something.

Screenshot (99).png

My power plant automation, just in case you're curious, and because I'm proud of my RS NOR latch.

Screenshot (100).png

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Its technically 1kw x 4 per second, thats why you can run 4 tepidizers off one transformer but not run 1 aquatuner without a battery booster.  I'm glad I was able to help and I figured thats what that area was :) like I said, very well designed and implimented just a few little quirks causing hang ups.  I had to be schooled the hard way here on the forums about transformer usage :)

Edited by Kabrute
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On 14.01.2018 at 5:54 PM, TOOK14 said:

but please tell me how much the tiny end of the transformer can put out, that's really critical info, at least for me.

Quote from steam:LxRp6Pd.jpg


 My own conclusion: transformers are not really transformers, but 1KW batteries with separate input and output. It appears that they can not charge faster then 1KW but they can discharge faster, causing issues at >1KW networks with 1KW wire. If your network has below 1000W, transformer will charge, once consumption jumps to 2KW, transformer will give a 'surge' by discharging buffer to devises and immediately discharging its 1KW imput as well. Likely a bug, but can be avoided by using 2KW wire.

Also possible that it is intended and transformers are merely made to act as separators, which they do fine.

 

At steam users claim that Quote: Transformers actually send 1KW per tick, rather than second, giving it either 4 or 5 KW real capacity...

Edited by AndreyKl

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On 14.01.2018 at 6:54 PM, TOOK14 said:

...but please tell me how much the tiny end of the transformer can put out, that's really critical info, at least for me.  Thank you very much for this.

tiny end can put out 1kJ per tick. We have 4, rarely 5 ticks per second. So at any moment transformer only send 1kJ, but do it 4 times per second.

If you, for example, set lone aquatuner after transformer, this aquatuner do not receive enough power, it needs 1.2 kW.

But if you add even tiny battery, situation changes.Lets look at it close. Let it be transformer, empty tiny battery and aquatuner

  1. tick: transformer sends 1kJ, aquatuner needs more, so it do not take it, and battery takes it fully
  2. tick: transformer gives 1 kJ and battery gives as much as needed by all you power consumers, If this is aquatuner, for example, battery provides 0.2 kJ needed, aquatuner consumes its 1.2 kW and works
  3. tick: transformer gives 1 kJ, battery takes it, aquatuner already eat its 1.2 kW this second so it do not need any more
  4. tick: transformer gives 1 kJ, battery takes it, aquatuner already eat its 1.2 kW this second so it do not need any more

Result of this second: transformer sends 4 kW, battey takes 2.8 kW and charges by 2.8kJ, aquatuner works, eating 1.2 kW and maximum load on wire was 1.2 kW

So, if you set just transformer and consumers, transformer never sends more than 1 kJ down the line, but yo can feed up to 4kW of consumers as long as their consumption can be divided in 1kW chunks (For example, you can feed 16 liquid pumps, they will consume 4 chunks of 960W, but cannot add one more 120W consumer -- each tick have only 40J free)

If you set a battery somewhere on power network at small side of transformer, than battery will provide all needed kW for consumers in one tick. and you can add, for example, one more 120 Watt consusmer (it became 3.960 kW consumption)

In both cases, power consumed will be lot more than 1kW and normal or conductive wire overloads. 

Misteriously, battery charging do not strain network. You can charge all 4 kJ per second through basic wire

 

Edit:

Important note: we have no way to know, and this is never stated, how many "ticks" game really process in second. So far it is 4 ticks mostly. But some people on forum sure there is 5 ticks per second, and some sure in only 2. Possibly it depends on FPS, on amount of memory or some other mysterious moon phase

Made some tests. It looks like it is 5.2 ticks per second on my computer, and switching game speed and spawning thousand of morbs do not change this by any measurable way. I try to mesure it on another computer another day

Edited by Prince Mandor

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