By The Numbers! Trying to bridge to end game. (and what is the H2O:steam?)

[Nemisis311]

I can't seem to find anywhere how much H2O is equal to what amount of steam. If I have 5kg steam tile, how much water does that convert to? if I want to put 5kg steam into a tile, how much water is that?

And if anyone knows a consolidated source for other numbers, like mathing out water requirements per plant per cycle, ratios of plants/grow times per recipe per dupe per cycle, etc. Or a table showing insulation/conductivity to know when to build what, it would really help. Or how much dirt does a 1kg tile of polluted water give when boiled? In an efficient system, how much power would equal how many kg of dirt and water?

I'm in that really awkward spot where I'm playing 1500 cycle runs regularly until I get bored while permanently in "mid game". I want to learn the finer details so I can actually play end game. Do systems like LOX, boiling, sleet wheat, reliable petroleum flow, and fully automated systems. 350 hours (since mid alpha) and I'm still figuring it out. I'm yet to launch any rockets, though I'm sure I could. But I am a very by-the-numbers and what is most efficient perfectionist, so it's a bit daunting because I "have" to find the perfect system. I make it that much harder on myself trying to scour through the limited numbers both in game and the wiki gives to find that perfection. I'm sitting here the last two days with a pen and paper, folks' lol.

[PhailRaptor]

4 hours ago, Nemisis311 said:

I can't seem to find anywhere how much H2O is equal to what amount of steam. If I have 5kg steam tile, how much water does that convert to? if I want to put 5kg steam into a tile, how much water is that?

That should answer itself.  A tile of 5 kg of Steam will condense into a (very small) puddle of 5 kg of Water.  There is no mass loss when boiling clean Water or condensing Steam.  The big difference, instead, is the per-tile mass limit of the different substances.  Water will happily flow together to upwards of 1000 kg per tile.  Steam, like most gases, wants to spread out and prefers to be as small a number per tile as possible in a given amount of tile spaces.

There is a slight difference when boiling Polluted Water.  When Polluted Water is boiled into Steam, you will get slightly less Steam than you had Polluted Water.  But that mass isn't completely lost -- it produces that much Dirt instead.  That Steam can then be condensed back to clean Water at the expected 1:1 ratio, but you will have slightly less clean Water than you had Polluted Water, and that amount of Dirt.

[Sasza22]

Poluted water gives a really small amount of dirt. it`s something like 5g per 1kg. It`s more an annoynance when making steam systems than anything useful. Especially when you got the water sieve that converts polluted water to clean at a 1:1 ratio while producing a lot more dirt.

I found a nice food guide in another thread. I hope it`s helpful. https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Guide/Food

As for insulation there isn`t as much to it as you might think. Most rock have similar heat conductivity. Granite conducts heat the fastest. Igneous rock is best for early insulation as it takes the most time to heat up. Most insulation can be done with that. A double layer of insulated tiles prevents almost all heat transfer.

Ceramic is a better insulator and could be used for systems with higher heat differences like geysers or even volcanoes (just not the metal ones that will melt it. To completely stop heat transfer you`ll need the super insulator.

Raw metals conduct heat pretty good, gold amalgam is slowest iirc but the differences aren`t big. Refined metals are much better conductors. Diamond is the best natural conductor. you might find designs using window tiles outof diamond to conduct heat better. Only thermium conducts faster.

As for gasses hydrogen is best for conducting heat while chlorine is beast as a heat insulator.

[Nemisis311]

20 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

That should answer itself.  A tile of 5 kg of Steam will condense into a (very small) puddle of 5 kg of Water.  There is no mass loss when boiling clean Water or condensing Steam.

good to know, wasn't sure if it actually condensed down the same. Funny you were the first reply. I name my worlds after the person in some way who shared the map seed on a post. I'm working on my first major survival playthrough, it's called Happy Phailtimes. Guess who shared it lol.

20 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

There is a slight difference when boiling Polluted Water.  When Polluted Water is boiled into Steam, you will get slightly less Steam than you had Polluted Water.  But that mass isn't completely lost -- it produces that much Dirt instead.

Is boiling the best long term way of accessing dirt though or is it better to sieve as Sasza mentions?

12 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Poluted water gives a really small amount of dirt. it`s something like 5g per 1kg. It`s more an annoynance when making steam systems than anything useful. Especially when you got the water sieve that converts polluted water to clean at a 1:1 ratio while producing a lot more dirt.

yeah hopped in and tested last night after seeing that (learning how to use debug), looked to be only around 3 to maybe 4% of mass converted to dirt. So the sieve converts equal amount of filtration medium into dirt? I haven't looked at the numbers for that yet.
 

12 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I found a nice food guide in another thread. I hope it`s helpful. https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Guide/Food

As for insulation there isn`t as much to it as you might think. Most rock have similar heat conductivity. Granite conducts heat the fastest. Igneous rock is best for early insulation as it takes the most time to heat up. Most insulation can be done with that. A double layer of insulated tiles prevents almost all heat transfer.

Ceramic is a better insulator and could be used for systems with higher heat differences like geysers or even volcanoes (just not the metal ones that will melt it. To completely stop heat transfer you`ll need the super insulator.

Raw metals conduct heat pretty good, gold amalgam is slowest iirc but the differences aren`t big. Refined metals are much better conductors. Diamond is the best natural conductor. you might find designs using window tiles outof diamond to conduct heat better. Only thermium conducts faster.

As for gasses hydrogen is best for conducting heat while chlorine is beast as a heat insulator.

Thanks for the link, nice chart at the bottom, I love numbers lol. Interesting, so igneous is better. Somewhere along the way I thought granite was better for tiles now that abyssalite is end game. Maybe I'm thinking of hardness, because I default to that now for my insulated water tanks. yeah, I know about tungsten and diamond for the most part. I've read through so much on the thermal conductivity and specific heat and I still don't fully understand it to figure out things on my own.

So, thermal conductivity. The BIGGER? the number the better conductor it is? But this is also somehow based on its specific heat and mass? How does one thing cool another without the thing you're trying to cool just heating up the cooling medium? If I'm running tungsten pipes with cooled hydrogen through geyser water, why does the hydrogen not get the heat instead of water the cold. And say hot petroleum being cooled in a hydrogen room. Why does it cool the petro but not, instead, superheat the hydrogen?

And chlorine best insulator. Interesting! I didn't know that.

I know a decent amount and can get to end game and do things fine, but I just don't understand them enough to not have to watch a million videos or steams on how other's do things, instead of being able to create my own things.

[Sundance]

About the whole "why won't my hydrogen vents cool down water from a geyser", you gotta consider the mass too, 1kg hydrogen (gas) against about 1000kg water (liquid) could take a while 

And we're just talking per tile, your best bet would be to pipe the water through cold hydrogen but decrease the flow.

[clickrush]

5 minutes ago, Nemisis311 said:

good to know, wasn't sure if it actually condensed down the same. Funny you were the first reply. I name my worlds after the person in some way who shared the map seed on a post. I'm working on my first major survival playthrough, it's called Happy Phailtimes. Guess who shared it lol.

Is boiling the best long term way of accessing dirt though or is it better to sieve as Sasza mentions?

yeah hopped in and tested last night after seeing that (learning how to use debug), looked to be only around 3 to maybe 4% of mass converted to dirt. So the sieve converts equal amount of filtration medium into dirt? I haven't looked at the numbers for that yet.
 

Thanks for the link, nice chart at the bottom, I love numbers lol. Interesting, so igneous is better. Somewhere along the way I thought granite was better for tiles now that abyssalite is end game. Maybe I'm thinking of hardness, because I default to that now for my insulated water tanks. yeah, I know about tungsten and diamond for the most part. I've read through so much on the thermal conductivity and specific heat and I still don't fully understand it to figure out things on my own.

So, thermal conductivity. The BIGGER? the number the better conductor it is? But this is also somehow based on its specific heat and mass? How does one thing cool another without the thing you're trying to cool just heating up the cooling medium? If I'm running tungsten pipes with cooled hydrogen through geyser water, why does the hydrogen not get the heat instead of water the cold. And say hot petroleum being cooled in a hydrogen room. Why does it cool the petro but not, instead, superheat the hydrogen?

And chlorine best insulator. Interesting! I didn't know that.

I know a decent amount and can get to end game and do things fine, but I just don't understand them enough to not have to watch a million videos or steams on how other's do things, instead of being able to create my own things.

It is important that you understand the difference in heat and temperature or at least the rough simulation model in ONI. Heat is the energy we measure in Joules or here in DTUs. Temperature measures how fast the molecules move. When you bring two materials in contact they will conduct heat (through movement so to speak) until their temperature is the same. Some materials however suck up more heat for every degree they rise in temperature (move faster) than others, so you need to take heat capacity in mind and of course the mass when you want to know what the resulting temperature is if you bring two materials in contact. I hope that answers your question about 'what cools/heats what'.

Now in terms of insulation you want a low conductivity because that determines how fast heat moves from tile to tile. The reason why chlorine is such a great insulator is its low conductivity first and foremost.

Heat capacity slows down the the temperature exchange as well but at the same time it is also much harder to get rid of the heat again, so the benefit of using high heat capacity items for insulation is mostly cosmetic or short term, but it is very good for temperature stability in fluctuating but controlled systems. If you build a system that needs to stay in a tight temperature range then building with high heat capacity items is recommended.

Now if you add mass then the same principle applies in terms of slowing down and adding stability. But I know that at least gases and liquids will conduct heat faster the more mass/tile you have, which makes sense.

I personally don't pay much attention to conductivity in terms of calculations though. I just use very low/lowest conductivity materials or vacuum when I want insulation, very high/highest conductivity materials  when I want transfer and w/e for all the rest. When fine tuning systems or understanding your challenges/goals it is far more important you look at heat and heat capacity in terms of your material I/O and the size of the system, how much cooling/heating you need and how much you can afford, the electrical power you need etc.

[Nemisis311]

8 minutes ago, clickrush said:

Some materials however suck up more heat for every degree they rise in temperature (move faster) than others, so you need to take heat capacity in mind and of course the mass when you want to know what the resulting temperature is if you bring two materials in contact

so, *just for examples sake*, if water and oil both had a thermal conductivity of 1, and water a heat capacity of 1, but oil a heat capacity of 2, it's going to take twice as much water to overcome the double temperature "storage" of oil? So then if you had 2kg oil, its going to take 4kg water to overcome (obviously not accounting for temperature difference and target temp). Just so I'm properly understanding heat capacity. It's like a hidden storage/point number per degree shift. One thing may take 5 points, while another may take 100.

22 minutes ago, clickrush said:

Now in terms of insulation you want a low conductivity because that determines how fast heat moves from tile to tile. The reason why chlorine is such a great insulator is its low conductivity first and foremost.

Heat capacity slows down the the temperature exchange as well but at the same time it is also much harder to get rid of the heat again, so the benefit of using high heat capacity items for insulation is mostly cosmetic or short term, but it is very good for temperature stability in fluctuating but controlled systems.

So then for my base protection and hot rooms (pre refinement) it's best to use igneous or sedimentary rock? Both equal conductivity, but igneous higher heat capacity (therefore slower change to outside temperatures). I've been using granite insulated tiles as geyser water storage because of it's hardness. Even though granite is more conductive, it drops it to 1% of that by using insulated, so that is still alright to use, yes? Or still a bad choice because of it's thermal conductivity? and I never know what to even use obsidian for lol.

[crypticorb]

19 minutes ago, Nemisis311 said:

so, *just for examples sake*, if water and oil both had a thermal conductivity of 1, and water a heat capacity of 1, but oil a heat capacity of 2, it's going to take twice as much water to overcome the double temperature "storage" of oil? So then if you had 2kg oil, its going to take 4kg water to overcome (obviously not accounting for temperature difference and target temp). Just so I'm properly understanding heat capacity. It's like a hidden storage/point number per degree shift. One thing may take 5 points, while another may take 100.

Your understanding of thermal conductivity and specific heat capacity is on point. Petroleum makes amazing coolant that has excellent temperature range, and will serve you well until you get supercoolant.

22 minutes ago, Nemisis311 said:

So then for my base protection and hot rooms (pre refinement) it's best to use igneous or sedimentary rock? Both equal conductivity, but igneous higher heat capacity (therefore slower change to outside temperatures). I've been using granite insulated tiles as geyser water storage because of it's hardness. Even though granite is more conductive, it drops it to 1% of that by using insulated, so that is still alright to use, yes? Or still a bad choice because of it's thermal conductivity? and I never know what to even use obsidian for lol.

It makes little difference what material you choose for insulated tiles. Igneous rock is great because it's cheap and easy to use, has low thermal conductivity, and is a strong material.  Granite isn't great because it conducts easiest, but it's cheap and strong.

NEVER use sedimentary rock for liquid storage tanks. Sedimentary rock is a great material, but not for liquid storage, because of the incredibly low hardness. If you start filling a large basin of liquid above 5-10 tiles deep, it will break sedimentary tiles easily, whereas igneous rock or granite will hold strong for MUCH higher pressure.

Obsidian is great if you want to work with magma, as it won't melt at extreme temperatures. Or just a cheap throwaway material, it's midrange.