The new method to make solo kill enraged klaus without damage become possibility [No film , Show the method only]

[spideswine]

10 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

The strategy as a whole either needs to be considered an exploit or not, otherwise you just create a double standard. "It's ok for you to cheese boss X and Y, but you're not allowed to cheese boss Z because reasons".

This whole approach seems completely nonsensical to me, say they make lureplants unplantable in the atrium, what happens to this whole logic then?

It should always be ok for you to use the same thing on X, but not the same thing on Y cause reasons, as long as these reasons are good.

10 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

In theory, it trivializes the challenge of his 2nd form. Dodging his lunging attack takes skill and knowledge of his attack patterns. Completely halting his movement removes this. That, and just limiting the movement of anything in general makes fights easier. Is it as effective as completely shutting down FW? No. Is it still limiting the bosses attacks and tactics? Yes.

It also takes skill to properly set up and work with the whole thing, and resources/skill to not get the lureplant to catch fire, the tradeoff being that you no longer deal with the lunge. Is it a fair tradeoff? I don't think so, seems like too much effort to deal with this, it just seems better to just kill him the usual way.

But if you are having trouble dealing with the lunge and find this easier, good, having multiple approaches for different playstyles is a nice thing to have.

Mind you I'm fairly sure it's basically true for no one and pretty much everyone will just prefer fighting him the regular way(or use gunpowder, cause apparently people do that).

[Sinister_Fang]

3 hours ago, spideswine said:

This whole approach seems completely nonsensical to me, say they make lureplants unplantable in the atrium, what happens to this whole logic then?

You realize this works the other way around right? Let's say they make bosses destroy lureplants, what happens to this whole logic then?

Let's stop with the "What if..." scenarios please. It's why I'm having a hard time trying to understand why cheesing boss X is ok, but using the same strategy on boss Z isn't.

3 hours ago, spideswine said:

It also takes skill to properly set up and work with the whole thing, and resources/skill to not get the lureplant to catch fire, the tradeoff being that you no longer deal with the lunge. Is it a fair tradeoff? I don't think so, seems like too much effort to deal with this, it just seems better to just kill him the usual way.

Wait, are you saying that placing down 2 lureplants and a flingo is a lot of work that requires skill? Yeah, it requires a little bit of preparation, but I wouldn't exactly say it's something that involves skill.

[spideswine]

7 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

You realize this works the other way around right? Let's say they make bosses destroy lureplants, what happens to this whole logic then?

Then it becomes a bad/lazy change that discourages players to think of new strategies/being innovative, and will make the game worse off.

7 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Let's stop with the "What if..." scenarios please. It's why I'm having a hard time trying to understand why cheesing boss X is ok, but using the same strategy on boss Z isn't.

As I've said

11 hours ago, spideswine said:

It should always be ok for you to use the same thing on X, but not the same thing on Y cause reasons, as long as these reasons are good.

It doesn't matter that if you phrase it in a certain way so it appears to be the same thing, it's not the same, what it does to each fight is completely different.

7 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Wait, are you saying that placing down 2 lureplants and a flingo is a lot of work that requires skill? Yeah, it requires a little bit of preparation, but I wouldn't exactly say it's something that involves skill

No, preventing them catching fire take skill, using a flingo is spending resources, this game already has the option to just throw resources at your problems(via gunpowder), and it is very much intentional, how is this any different?

[Sinister_Fang]

5 hours ago, spideswine said:

Then it becomes a bad/lazy change that discourages players to think of new strategies/being innovative, and will make the game worse off.

Think about that for a moment. If one strategy is removed, then wouldn't players be encouraged to think of new ones?

5 hours ago, spideswine said:

It doesn't matter that if you phrase it in a certain way so it appears to be the same thing, it's not the same, what it does to each fight is completely different.

In every fight it restricts the bosses movement. It's effectiveness varies a bit from boss to boss, but restricting movement in general is quite powerful.

5 hours ago, spideswine said:

No, preventing them catching fire take skill, using a flingo is spending resources, this game already has the option to just throw resources at your problems(via gunpowder), and it is very much intentional, how is this any different?

It isn't. I think we've gotten too far off track about this strategy on Klaus. I think it would probably be best if we create a test world and try out this strategy for ourselves. And then, for comparison sake, fight him again without the lureplants using the same exact equipment we started with in the first fight. Talking about the strategy in theory only goes so far. 

Personally my loadout is going to be Wilson, 3 log suits, a hambat, 20 jerky and a completely unnecessary top hat just because I can. That should be more then enough to see the difference between using this strategy and not using it.

[spideswine]

43 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Think about that for a moment. If one strategy is removed, then wouldn't players be encouraged to think of new ones?

Depends on what that strategy is.

If it's something hyper efficient+easy+obvious, then yeah.

If it's not, then it really depends.

If it's something hyper efficient+easy+not obvious at all and takes a lot of time to set up(not the case here, maybe werepig moonfarming fits here though), then people might get discouraged to innovate(as if they find something cool and new then the devs will just "fix" it), and get bored faster as the game will lose depth(it really depends on efficiency/easy to use/non trivial to figure out/setup time length).

If it's something slightly inefficient+not very easy+not obvious, then there are no benefits, you're not encouraging people to use new strats, as pretty much nobody uses it as is. You still carry the downsides though. People still will get discouraged to try new things(as devs might fix them), and the game will still lose depth(though not much, as nobody uses it anyway).

Now fuelweaver cheese in contrast(Not talking about the eyeturrent one) is very efficient+very easy+not obvious at all, you still discourage people from trying new things, but at the same time encourage them to look for new strats(or just do it the regular way, which is still a lot better than the current cheese). Here I'd say the benefits outweigh the losses.

43 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

In every fight it restricts the bosses movement. It's effectiveness varies a bit from boss to boss, but restricting movement in general is quite powerful.

And yet the lureplant doesn't have much uses at other boss fights.

43 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

It isn't. I think we've gotten too far off track about this strategy on Klaus. I think it would probably be best if we create a test world and try out this strategy for ourselves. And then, for comparison sake, fight him again without the lureplants using the same exact equipment we started with in the first fight. Talking about the strategy in theory only goes so far. 

Personally my loadout is going to be Wilson, 3 log suits, a hambat, 20 jerky and a completely unnecessary top hat just because I can. That should be more then enough to see the difference between using this strategy and not using it.

I'm fine with doing that, but what about night length and a torch? Also flingo or no flingo(ice staff if no flingo?)?

(In all honestly I'm expecting this not to be good because if it actually were good, I would've heard/seen it by now)

Edit: Oh and either way a cane should be involved, not involving a cane doesn't make much sense to me.

[Sinister_Fang]

15 minutes ago, spideswine said:

And yet the lureplant doesn't have much uses at other boss fights.

I think the lureplant was meant to be a pest more then anything. I doubt it's intended use was to be an unbreakable barrier. But with that being said, it still has other, fairly niche uses. It can be used to farm massive amounts of twigs or grass with Wickerbottom's books. You can farm the meat itself for easy eggs. I've even seen people use them to "extend" the range of flingos due to them having a higher priority for wildfires.

18 minutes ago, spideswine said:

I'm fine with doing that, but what about night length and a torch? Also flingo or no flingo(ice staff if no flingo?)?

(In all honestly I'm expecting this not to be good because if it actually were good, I would've heard/seen it by now)

Edit: Oh and either way a cane should be involved, not involving a cane doesn't make much sense to me.

In my current test world I have it set to only day. I'd recommend doing that as well if you're making a test world as the day and night cycle could complicate things with a back to back test like this. I'd rather not just sit around for the next day before I can start the next test in the same conditions. In actual practice it might be a good idea to use a miner's hat or drop a lantern for a light source the flingo can't extinguish. A star/moon caller staff could be used as well.

It's possible no one has tried this before, or more likely, no one bothered to share the strategy yet. If it makes the fight easier in any way, I consider it to be better then fighting him normally.

And yes, I plan to throw in a cane into my planned equipment. I can't believe I completely forgot about one of the most important items in the entire game. You can change your equipment in any way you see fit. Just make sure you're starting with the same exact equipment loadout for each fight. I personally just went for something simple. It's less about actually killing Klaus and more about testing how effective the strategy is. I doubt killing time would be very different, but I'm sure there's going to be a noticeable difference between the amount of healing and armor used.

[spideswine]

2 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

And yes, I plan to throw in a cane into my planned equipment. I can't believe I completely forgot about one of the most important items in the entire game. You can change your equipment in any way you see fit. Just make sure you're starting with the same exact equipment loadout for each fight. I personally just went for something simple. It's less about actually killing Klaus and more about testing how effective the strategy is. I doubt killing time would be very different, but I'm sure there's going to be a noticeable difference between the amount of healing and armor used.

Problem is klaus is generally fought in winter, when night is short, so I'm fighting him on day 25 with a thermal as well.

The flingo is in fact quite annoying unless you I bring extra equipment, which I never bother with.

Anyway I ended up bringing a starcallers for the flingo fight, as the flingo was too annoying with regular fires, my lureplant ended up burning down from periodic fire damage and me accidently hitting it(pressing f does that), overall it ended up costing more resources and being more annoying overall.

Starting equipment:

regular way:

I have accidentally deleted my cheese screenshot, but it ended up costing more resources, and although I suppose that could've been avoided with practicing the new start further, isn't it supposed to be just plain easier?

Also a good chunk of the resources lost here were to krampii and rather unavoidable overheating+freezing damage, I just don't see how the "cheese" can be worth all this nonsense around it, especially bringing a starcallers and building a flingo(or wasting time running while the fire attack is cast instead of a flingo).

I don't see how this "exploit" is useful, I'll wait to see if you get different results.

[Sinister_Fang]

Ok, time to share my results.

When it came to the lureplant method, it seemed to work fine. I didn't have any issues with the flingo getting in the way (I placed it so the lureplants were on the very end of it's range). Honestly, I never even had them ignite once. And I had to restart the fight a couple of time due to me accidentally breaking them and taking a lot of unnecessary damage trying to replace them. It was a little awkward I will admit, but after I adjusted it was fairly easy. I barely ever got hit by Klaus himself. The second stage was a cakewalk compared to what it usually was.

As for fighting him normally, it seemed a lot faster then with the lureplants. But I took a lot more damage (mostly becuase I kept running back in to attack him too early and got hit by the second swipe a lot). I ended up just dying about mid-way through his second stage due to not having anymore armor.

So from my experience, using lureplants is a lot safer, but fighting him normally is going to be the faster method if you can properly dodge his attacks.

[spideswine]

23 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Ok, time to share my results.

When it came to the lureplant method, it seemed to work fine. I didn't have any issues with the flingo getting in the way (I placed it so the lureplants were on the very end of it's range).

Did you do it without a night cycle as you've said?

My issue isn't with the flingo getting in the way of the fight, but getting in the way of me lighting fires at night(for heat+light), and when dealing with wilson even if you start at dawn the fight will likely drag into the night, due to winter nights being rather long.

 

I think either way it's more efficient resource+time wise to just do it the regular way, it does make the second phase a bit easier in a sense, but also makes it take quite a bit more time, I also think that the increased damage you took at the first phase was mostly due to rushing things, as the lureplant doesn't really make his attacks easier to dodge in that phase.

Add to that the fact you still need to adjust your approach(and not use f and accidentally hit the lureplant) and the addition of the night cycle+freezing favoring the regular approach, and I'd say it's subpar to doing it the regular way unless the person using the strat REALLY struggles with his lunge for some reason.

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, spideswine said:

Did you do it without a night cycle as you've said?

Yeah. Like I said, it was just a test to see the effectiveness between using the strategy and not using it. I wasn't going for simulating normal conditions for fighting him. As long as the conditions remained the same between both tests it was good enough for me.

1 hour ago, spideswine said:

I also think that the increased damage you took at the first phase was mostly due to rushing things, as the lureplant doesn't really make his attacks easier to dodge in that phase.

Yeah, that was exactly what happened. The problem was that I kept going for an extra hit. It's been so long since I last fought him solo that I'm unable to squeeze in that additional hit as frequently as I used to. So it was just me getting a little cocky and not realizing how rusty I've gotten. If I played it a little safer I'm sure I could have at least finished the fight. It seemed easier to do that with the lureplants though.

1 hour ago, spideswine said:

I'd say it's subpar to doing it the regular way unless the person using the strat REALLY struggles with his lunge for some reason.

I will admit, I am quite terrible when it comes to dealing with that lunge. My typical strategy for his 2nd phase is to just equip some marble armor and tank his melee attacks.

Overall, I'd say the strategy is ok. It's not as good as I had originally thought. Mostly because if you know what you're doing it's a little unnecessary. At the very least you could set it up ahead of time and use it during the 2nd phase of the fight. Stopping the lunge entirely makes that part a cakewalk.