( Yet Another) Willow Thread!

[Scoobie101]

Hello! Now, before I get started, I know that there's already a BUNCH of Willow threads out there, but this isn't really a "Willow is terribly under powered, give her lotsa buffs!" topic as it's a "Willow in DST doesn't have the same play style as DS Willow, let's fix that." topic. Now, as Willow stands now, Willow in DST isn't fully immune to fire, and her lighter isn't infinite, and she freezes when insane. (I'm leaving Bernie alone in this because I think he doesn't really have much to do with what I'm suggesting) Now! These changes are fine for Willow to prevent greifers and give (somewhat) of a similar character. MY problem with her, is that in DS her setting fires at below 60 sanity gives her a risky play style that keeps you on your feet, but Willow's freezing in DST happens when she's at SUCH low sanity, there's almost no risk in playing her, which is the whole point! Personally, I think her freezing should start at 60 sanity and work a little differently. The freezing should happen at random times like her fire, but the time between freeze spells should be MUCH longer, and the freezing itself should be FAR more devastating, making it so that while she's freezing, she HAS to be by a fire until it passes. The fire warms her up to a certain point, but should only prevent freezing damage, and not fully warm her up, instead the freezing should wear off on its own after maybe 30 seconds. And during this time when she's in the middle of a freezing (and this time only, also, just to clarify, when she's ACTUALLY freezing, not just insane. ) she should be immune to fire so she can stand in flaming cut grass (or other flammable things) to prevent freezing. This makes her equally as risky as she is in DS, but makes it only risky to HER and not her whole team. Now, to counter this her lighter should be infinite, because honestly, what good does a lighter having durability have in terms of greif protection? It's not like they stay long enough for it to break anyways. Plus, the the lighter being held helps Willow combat sanity loss, so it being infinite is perfect to match up with more freezing. Now for fire! I think her fire resistance is fine the way it is now, it's not perfect, but unlike the lighter having durability it DOES help with protection from greifers (to a certain extent). My only complaint is that hearing the fire's sizzle noise and seeing flames on your screen during the 3 seconds she's immune is REALLY annoying when you have to keep running in and out of a flaming tree and hearing/seeing it appear and disappear. It might not "buff" her per say, but it makes her much more interesting and closer to her fiery roots. That's all for now, au revoir. -Scoobie.

[Tumalu]

Except this would actively nerf her and general consensus AFAIK is already that she's not very good of a character?

The way her freezing works is already her best perk as-is because it gives her great resistance in summer. It DOES start working well before rock bottom sanity (it maxes out at 18 sanity from what I read- which is right at the line where she starts getting attacked by nightmares, so you can reap almost-max benefits by just staying somewhat close), it's just that outside of winter it's not going to outright freeze you unless you're wet. It gives you a constant passive body temp down. It actually negates overheating for the first several days of summer, and is a significant help for the rest of it.

If it was changed to be periodical freezing instead of a passive temp down that ramps up with sanity loss, Willow would lose what's arguably her most useful perk, along with receiving a separate downside at the same time. :S

I wouldn't complain at all if the lighter was changed to have the "degrades in 3 days if left on the ground" method like other character items instead of being a durability item. The lighter is pretty horrible of an item either way, though, with how abysmal the light range is- you can't see things that are close enough to HIT you within the next half second! (I died once to a lureplant that hadn't been there before.) The only reason it's relevant at all is they let you cook on the go with it, now, which is alright.

[CaptainChaotica]

...you KNEW I was gonna step into this one.  : P

The freezing _can_ be quite lethal as it is, when put in conjunction with whatever other factors made you nuts in the first place.  To wit:  Just yesterday, I tried playing as Willow in Together, and at one point our Wilson was taken down by a treeguard.  Stupidly, I was like, "I'LL avenge you!" and leapt over the body of my fallen comrade to wreak havoc upon the evil creature that had taken him from us!  (Insert fanfic here.)  I mean, I already had an almost-new logsuit, football helmet _and_ tentacle spike, right? And it was right in our base.

...unfortunately, I _kiiiiinda_ misunderstood just how much more health treeguards have in Together, so about a minute later...in addition to being badly hurt by the treeguard itself (turns out, in multiplayer it's TWO hits then dodge, not three--because lag), I was completely out of armour, freezing AND running away from shadow monsters!  In the end, I'm not quite sure what got me--I tried to put a fire down, and  it was either the freezing or the Crawling Horror getting me the second I stopped.  Either way, that damn treeguard and the freezing-insanity eventually killed me TWICE, resulting in such low maximum health I could barely leave camp.

So yeah, the freezing happens plenty quickly and severely enough to be lethal as it is.

I completely agree with the lighter being infinite again--that's the whole idea of the original, that its infinite uses balances out how LOUSY it is!  I'd gladly give up the cooking ability in exchange for that.

And last but not least, even though the insanity-temperature-lowering _is_  useful in summer, I would kind of rather have her spontaneous-fire thing back.  Because there, the outburst itself _helps HEAL her sanity_!  And it's fairly easy to combat, if you think ahead and carry basic supplies with you.  Going a little bit insane, as Willow?  Get a few meatballs and enough logs and grass to make at least a couple campfires (which you should always have on you anyway!)  Prototype a bedroll, if you haven't.  Then sleep out AWAY FROM THE BASE until you feel better, eating to combat the sleep hunger-drain as necessary.  There.  I've done that, while staying deliberately nuts for days to hunt beardlings, and it worked out fine.

If not--if we're going to still make her freeze to death in sunshine when she's nuts?  Then I want the full fire immunity back, dammit.

The character is now _underpowered_, her bad point "balances" out good points that are limited and halfway!  If she's going to have a major disadvantage,then it should at LEAST be actually paying _for_ something.

And the really sad thing?  All of this nerfing, and sometimes people STILL yell "Ban Willow!" the second she comes on a server, anyway. 

...Notorious

[Scoobie101]

51 minutes ago, Tumalu said:

 Except this would actively nerf her and general consensus AFAIK is already that she's not very good of a character?

The way her freezing works is already her best perk as-is because it gives her great resistance in summer. It DOES start working well before rock bottom sanity (it maxes out at 18 sanity from what I read- which is right at the line where she starts getting attacked by nightmares, so you can reap almost-max benefits by just staying somewhat close), it's just that outside of winter it's not going to outright freeze you unless you're wet. It gives you a constant passive body temp down. It actually negates overheating for the first several days of summer, and is a significant help for the rest of it.

If it was changed to be periodical freezing instead of a passive temp down that ramps up with sanity loss, Willow would lose what's arguably her most useful perk, along with receiving a separate downside at the same time. :S

I wouldn't complain at all if the lighter was changed to have the "degrades in 3 days if left on the ground" method like other character items instead of being a durability item. The lighter is pretty horrible of an item either way, though, with how abysmal the light range is- you can't see things that are close enough to HIT you within the next half second! (I died once to a lureplant that hadn't been there before.) The only reason it's relevant at all is they let you cook on the go with it, now, which is alright.

I just wanted her to play interestingly, sure she's balanced in DST, but she isn't as fun as she is normal DS. I just thought this might keep her closer to her original character. Also, I personally don't think the play style of "keep this stat in the right place when you need it" is her play style, because that's more of a Wolfgang thing with his hunger. Also also, the lighter acts as a constant small sanity boost, and no other item in the hand slot gives sanity (I think). Also also also, a top hat as a lighter negates sanity drain at night.

[Scoobie101]

15 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

...you KNEW I was gonna step into this one.  : P

The freezing _can_ be quite lethal as it is, when put in conjunction with whatever other factors made you nuts in the first place.  To wit:  Just yesterday, I tried playing as Willow in Together, and at one point our Wilson was taken down by a treeguard.  Stupidly, I was like, "I'LL avenge you!" and leapt over the body of my fallen comrade to wreak havoc upon the evil creature that had taken him from us!  (Insert fanfic here.)  I mean, I already had an almost-new logsuit, football helmet _and_ tentacle spike, right? And it was right in our base.

...unfortunately, I _kiiiiinda_ misunderstood just how much more health treeguards have in Together, so about a minute later...in addition to being badly hurt by the treeguard itself (turns out, in multiplayer it's TWO hits then dodge, not three--because lag), I was completely out of armour, freezing AND running away from shadow monsters!  In the end, I'm not quite sure what got me--I tried to put a fire down, and  it was either the freezing or the Crawling Horror getting me the second I stopped.  Either way, that damn treeguard and the freezing-insanity eventually killed me TWICE, resulting in such low maximum health I could barely leave camp.

So yeah, the freezing happens plenty quickly and severely enough to be lethal as it is.

I completely agree with the lighter being infinite again--that's the whole idea of the original, that its infinite uses balances out how LOUSY it is!  I'd gladly give up the cooking ability in exchange for that.

And last but not least, even though the insanity-temperature-lowering _is_  useful in summer, I would kind of rather have her spontaneous-fire thing back.  Because there, the outburst itself _helps HEAL her sanity_!  And it's fairly easy to combat, if you think ahead and carry basic supplies with you.  Going a little bit insane, as Willow?  Get a few meatballs and enough logs and grass to make at least a couple campfires (which you should always have on you anyway!)  Prototype a bedroll, if you haven't.  Then sleep out AWAY FROM THE BASE until you feel better, eating to combat the sleep hunger-drain as necessary.  There.  I've done that, while staying deliberately nuts for days to hunt beardlings, and it worked out fine.

If not--if we're going to still make her freeze to death in sunshine when she's nuts?  Then I want the full fire immunity back, dammit.

The character is now _underpowered_, her bad point "balances" out good points that are limited and halfway!  If she's going to have a major disadvantage,then it should at LEAST be actually paying _for_ something.

And the really sad thing?  All of this nerfing, and sometimes people STILL yell "Ban Willow!" the second she comes on a server, anyway. 

...Notorious

I (personally) don't think freezing is nearly as bad as accidentally burning down your entire base. And, as I (think) I said before, infinite lighter means easy (minor) sanity gain which really helps in the long run of things, even if the boost is small. I dunno,  I find something appealing about constantly having a danger lurking close, even at max stats. (since random fire is only half sanity for Willow) It keeps me interested  

[StarvedKasad]

I don't know if this helps,but I've figured out something interesting with DST.There is a relatively easy way of remaining hot in the winter, which is kind of an abuse in DST since grass turf is replantable without poop (though I'm not sure if it is replantable in DS without fertilizer) .Just grab a shovel,couple sapling/grass turfs and a lighter,set them on fire,wait for ~25 seconds,dig them,plant them,repeat.For degrading your shovel you have an infinite amount of heating and some sanity.Works nice on DST since they don't instantly catch on fire like DS.

Iirc the planted saplings and turfs last for 30 seconds.When on the ground they last 15 seconds ( ? )

Regular shovel has 25 uses

Regal shovel has 100 uses.

[CaptainChaotica]

...I am so dumb, I had no idea you could replant turf at all!  Then again, I've never tried.  (I dig it out of the way so I can decorate my camp with my pretty stolen carpeting and marble flooring from the clockwork areas, and then...either use the original turf in the firepit, or get distracted by something else and turn around _just_ in time to see a moleworm eating it. : P)

Another problem with the insanity freezing can be seen in my story above--you also have to deal with the _regular_ Don't Starve insanity problems, ie., shadow monsters!  So you can't even ATTEMPT to make a fire to warm up, because then the Crawling Horrors/Terrorbeaks will get you.  And chances are you're already pretty beaten up by the freezing effect itself by the time you get desperate enough to even try that. 
The end result is that going insane as Willow for even a _little_ bit, can result in you getting ONE-SHOTTED the second you try to combat the problem!  It's kind of a losing scenario that just keeps spiralling downward and there's nothing you can do.

Again:  UNDERpowered. They gave her too much of a penalty in exchange for benefits that are no longer that good.

I understand griefers are a thing (boy, do I.  I've quit lesser games _forever_ because somebody jumped me, as a level 1 newbie, just because they COULD--on what was _supposed_ to be a non PvP server!), but perhaps there could be two different versions of Together Willow--one like the current version for PvP servers, and something closer to the original for the PvE/Cooperative ones?

Changing her to curtail the jerk playstyle ruined it for the nice people. The nice people don't deserve that.  I SWEAR, if _I_ played as Original-Flavour Willow and started accidentally burning the base down?  I would go in there with my fire immunity and _put it out myself_.  Other cooperative players probably would too.

...Notorious