Notes from Day 30

[keypusher]

So, after finishing the story I decided to embark on an Endless run at Normal difficulty.  After playing through to Day 30, I thought I would collect my thoughts on strategy, gameplay, and some feedback.  First, I just want to say I think this game is great, and has potential to become even better.  The developers seem invested in making a good game, it's nice to see some of them at least read the forums and bug reports, and they continue to put out good updates getting ready for release.  The game overall seems quite stable, I haven't encountered a crash or corrupted save yet.  Most of the bugs I have found (and filed) are minor issues around odd behavior or things not displaying quite right.

 

I realize they are probably focused primarily on the Story Mode right now, and I can understand that.  Many people enjoy a semi-narrative driven experience, with a clear beginning and end.  However, I would like to see more attention in the future paid to Endless Mode, as I think that is where the real replayability comes from.  If you look at traditional roguelikes and the possibilities around procedural content generation, one of the big benefits is that you are not tied to content which must be produced by hand.  You can generate new levels on the fly as long as players are interested, which has the potential to give a single player game the replayability normally reserved only for multiplayer games.  However, in order to make this happen, some changes would need to be made.

 

After around Day 10, the game balance starts to fall apart.  By Day 20+, most missions have become risk-free, and by Day 30, I find the only real challenge left is if I can complete the mission on Turn 0.  This is due to a few things.  First, that the level size and difficulty does not continue to scale up.  It is clearly tuned for Story Mode, with difficulty of 1-4 shields.  Second, there are a few gameplay interactions which can be taken advantage of to trivialize the challenge.  The first peice of this puzzle is Net Downlink.  As long as you have power and devices to hack, you can keep moving.  Stacking multiple ND augs results in increased benefits.  The second peice is Torque Injectors.  With 2 Injectors, you have infinite access to Accellerator Chip III (normally a 2 turn cooldown).  The primary limiting factor to Net Downlink is getting enough power, but with infinite Accellerator Chip, you can keep moving with ND, popping consoles for ~10 PWR as you go, and you are on your way to turn 0 solves (mission completion), which is the route I took.  With 3 Torque Injectors, you have infinite Buster Chip III.  This means it doesn't even cost PWR for most hacks, so you can walk around under cloak, hacking every device you find, and you don't even need to worry about the power.  With 4 Torque Injectors, you have infinite Stim III.  Since Stim III refreshes your attack and gives you 8 AP, this means you don't technically even need Net Downlink anymore, you can basically just run around forever and you will always have attack up to deal with threats.  With 8 Torque Injectors (from an archive agent) you have infinite Cloak.  At that point the game is just beyond broken, and isn't challenging in any way, for obvious reasons.

 

Do I think these abilities need to be rebalanced?  Perhaps.  I do think the infinite stim loop and infinite cloak absolutely needs to be addressed somehow.  I have heard someone say on the forums that stacking augments will be changed in a future patch, and perhaps that is the right reaction.  Personally, I would like to see them make it so you can only reduce the cooldown on an item to 1, never below.  So, you could use an item (chip, stim, weapon) once per turn, but not infinite times per turn. I do still want the ability to build up agents into real badasses in the late game, and if you invest that much time in the game I think you deserve it.  Limiting the amount of augs you can stack limits the interesting combinations and possibilities.

 

If Torque Injects are addressed, I would also like to see missions gain an extra room per day, or an extra gaurd every other day.  I think you would find that by day 20 or 30, those 30 extra rooms and significantly larger map size would have a very challenging effect on gameplay.  Beyond making the maps larger, I would like to see some more open-ended goals for endless mode.  After you have your agents all suited up the way you want them, there isn't really any compelling reason to keep playing.  And I'm not talking about leaderboards or achievements, I would just like to see some way to keep improving them, or extra difficult challenges to tackle.  I have something like $50,000 in my account, and nothing to spend it on.  The only reason I kept playing past Day 25 was that I was still looking for Abacus 2.0, but I never did see it.  Anyway, those are my thoughts on game after playing for the last couple weeks.  Hope the game continues to improve and I look forward to what the devs come up with next.

 

tl;dr:

* Make late game maps scale up larger

* Make more challenges for Endless

* Stacking Net Downlink is strong.

* Stacking Torque Injectors is broken.

[keypusher]

Edit: Added a ton of strategy discussion here, on request.

 

Let me go through and rank the agents, and talk about the equipment I used for them.  I will talk only about on-file agents, as I never played with the archive versions.  I've adapted this a bit from my original post, as it's not particularly useful to talk about the "ultimate setup" for each agent, as it's mostly the same for each.  Once you have Carbon Myomer for extra inventory (8 slots), you should probably have one melee weapon, one ranged weapon, a cloak, a paralyzer, and a stim on each of your agents.  Then, I put a wireless scanner and accellerator or buster chips on my scouts, and put backup stuff like emp, shock trap, grenades, etc on my support agents.  Agent item and aug customization is a personal preference really, you might want to specialize someone like Nika in combat, and just give her a bunch of weapons and combat augs.  You might want to carry extra paralyzers on your support agents, or servers if you are having power trouble.  Here I will just give some of the essentials for each, and how I used them.  I stacked up Net Downlink on most of my agents in their free slots, because that's just how I like to roll.

 

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Banks - My favorite agent, started with her.  Ability to open all red doors is priceless.  Not only does it mean you can bypass difficult areas or handle levels differently, it means you get a free inventory slot as you don't have to carry passcards. 

Role: Primary scout and takedown expert, because she can go anywhere and handle almost anything.
Equipment: Neural Disruptor, Biogenic Dart, Cloak, Scanner, Paralyzer, Stim, Accelerator Chip

Augs: 2x Torque gives Neural Disruptor every turn and infinite Accellerator Chip.  Downlink, Brawling, Chameleon.

 

Internationale - Always good, my second starting agent.  Wireless scanner is one of the most important items in the game, much more important than cloak.  Also, the ability to use consoles from a distance never gets old and cannot be replaced by any item.  I think later on Dr. Xu is maybe better, but I really like to have Internationale in the first few days, which are often the hardest.  I used Volt Disruptor instead Neural Disruptor on her because I wanted a non-lethal melee attack available every turn and I didn't have extra room in her augs for Torque Injectors.  Less combat oriented.

Equipment: Volt Disruptor, Biogenic Dart, Cloak, Scanner, Paralyzer, Stim, EMP

Augs: Lots of Downlink.  Distributed Processing, Chameleon.

 

Dr. Xu - Quite good.  His unique augment to open safes and hack devices for free is very strong.  It also kills Camera Drones, and it does not trigger daemons on the devices you hack (unlike Buster Chip).  Ability only KO's the more difficult drones (dogs, null drones, akumas), it doesn't kill them.  It does use his attack for the turn, even if it's just to crack a safe.  You could certainly make a case to start with Dr. Xu instead as use him as a frontline, but I put him further back in a support role and only bring him up to the front if I need to kill Camera Drones or hack something.  He primarily cleans up safes, so I tend to leave a few open slots on him to pick stuff up.  Secures doors behind us via Shock Trap as we move through the level.

Equipment: Biogenic Dart, Shock Trap, Paralyzer(s), Personal Server(s)

Role: Cleanup / Support. 

Augs: Skeletal Suspension, Carbon Myomer

 

Nika - My 4th agent.  "The Enforcer".  On most levels, Nika doesn't do much except pick up items, vault keys, etc, but when it hits the fan Nika is there to make sure threats are neutralized and we get out alive.  If you really want to crack some heads, try dual-wielding Flurry Guns.  Nika is the best combat agent out there, earlier on you could certainly use her with non-lethal weapons to take out patrolling guards, etc.  I usually keep her in the back and avoid lethal force, but you could run Nika as a frontline instead of Internationale, she is definitely better if combat is your style.

Role: Combat

Equipment: Neural Disruptor, Flurry Gun, Cloak, Stim(s), De-Fib Lance

Augs: Anatomy Analysis, Predictive Brawling, Chameleon

 

Shalem  - Meh.  I don't really like to use lethal force unless necessary, as I want to keep the alarm as low as possible.  Being able to ignore armor isn't bad, but I tend to play the first few days fairly safe until I have picked up something like a Biogenic Dart or Neural Disruptor 3 that will allow me to handle enemies with armor anyway.  I also don't like having to refill guns via Charge Packs.  At the end of the day his aug can be replaced by the same aug you can get normally anyway, and later on you get weapons with 2 armor piercing.

 

Deckard - Bad choice for endless.  1 AP can quickly be overcome with all of the things I talked about earlier.  I've had agents finish a mission with over 100 AP.  Starting with a cloak is nice, but honestly the cloak is a crutch, only to get out of a bad situation where you made a mistake.  You need to learn to clear rooms safely, to watch gaurd patrol paths, to learn where you can hide safely and not, without the cloak.

 

Agent Notes:

If you don't get the agent you are looking for at the Detention Center, just let them rot and try again a different time.  I left poor Deckard in that Detention Center 4 times before I got the team I was looking for.  Do I feel bad?  Kind of, but he backstabbed me that time in Monaco so he had it coming.

 

Item Notes:

I don't like items with charges.  If the Tier 3 infinite ammo weapons were more rare, or more expensive, I might change my mind.  While you can always pick up charge packs at Nanofab, for now I just don't think the hassle or the charge pack cost is worth it.   Inevitably I would forget, or I only had one bullet and needed two, or whatever.  For this reason I like the melee weapons, the biogenic dart, and the flurry gun.  Flurry Gun is a good solution to the drones especially the big Akuma drones and Null Drones if you don't have EMP, and a good backup otherwise.  Cloak is a crutch, and I mostly save it to get out of a bad situations.  If you have a stationary guard facing a door you need to go through, I find it is usually better to KO him than to sneak by with cloak.  Still, I carry cloak on every agent, just in case.  Shock Trap is pretty good, not crucial once you get the biogenic dart, but still nice to have.  Keep in mind you can attack and use Shock Trap in the same turn, and Shock Trap KO's multiple enemies in the area. Paralyzer is fantastic, especially in the mid-game.  You should always try to remain unseen and only KO guards when necessary, but often you need to take down somebody.  Especially for escort missions (detention, courier) and longer missions (mole, executive) where there is a minimum 5 turn wait, or when you need cash badly in early/mid-game and need to clear the level 100% and steal all the guards money, you want to keep them down as long as possible to buy time.  Carry at least 2 paralyzer, but you can put them on support agents if you have to.  Move scouts up, have support paralyze the guards and sit on them.  Stim is critical on your scouts, and by the late game every agent should carry one.  Maybe you miscalculate your movement, maybe a situation comes up you were surprised by, whatever.  Accellerator Chip and Buster Chip are good, I like Accellerator Chip more than Buster Chip, because Buster doest help with cameras, and Dr. Xu can hack the safes.  Buster Chip is nice to have if there are many drones around, it's like an attack for them.  I generally prefer to use EMP to deal with mass drones though.  I don't think you need to carry more than 1 or 2 EMPs, and most levels you won't even use it, but sometime you will get to a room with Null Drone and Akuma watching the door and some cameras and a dog and you gonna be in trouble unless you brought the EMP.  Wireless Scanner is one of the best items in the game.  Gathering risk-free information about the level enables you to make smart choices and plan your strategy.  For this reason I put Wireless Scanner III on both my scouts.

 

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Incognita:

 

The first major decision is to use Power Drip or Fusion at the start.  While Fusion is technically better, I found that with so much to keep track of in some of the levels that I often forgot to pop it when necessary, or that it caused me pain to save enough to trigger it, so I used Power Drip instead.  This is personal preference, both are viable.  The main things to keep in mind are that you need to have a way to generate power, a way to handle big targets (4 or 5), a way to handle small targets (1 or 2), and a way to handle daemons.  Through most of the game I used some combination of Lockpick and Parasite.  Parasite 2.0 is always better than 1.0, because it will finish faster for quicker results and also therefore you will not have to incur the scaling cost of having multiple parasites up at the same time.  The "special case" tools like Hammer, Dagger, Data Blast, I didn't use that much because they aren't reliable enough.  Rapier is amazing and adds a new element to the game when you use it as a primary, but is only viable late-game, once you have enough Net Downlink to finish fast.  Taurus is usually better than Hunter because it is cheaper and doesn't have a cooldown.  Daemon Sniffer is only worth getting if you can't find Taurus or Hunter.  For the utility tools I like Oracle, to be able to scout the map early on.   Ping is decent, although I never used it much myself.  Leash is definitely fun, and made me use drones much more (btw you can kill drones with other drones, and killing drones doesn't effect the alarm tracker as they have no heartbeat monitor). Wisp isn't worth a slot in my opinion, get a TAG pistol instead if you can't handle remembering the patrols.  Shade is terrible, it doesn't reduce the enemy vision cone radius, only the distance, and most rooms are so small that it doesn't help.  Abacus 1.0 and 2.0 are fantastic and should always be picked up.

 

As I mentioned in another topic, I sold my Power Drip/Fusion eventually.  With careful use of consoles, accellerator chip, Distributed Processing augs, and personal servers if necessary, you don't really need to use an Incognita slot for power generation.  For lategame speedruns I reccommend:

 

Rapier

Lockpick 2.0 / Dagger 2.0

Taurus

Hunter

Abacus

 

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General Tips:

 

Take your time.  The game is turn based, so there is nothing stopping you from spending 10 minutes thinking about a particularly difficult situation.  Move slowly until you have the tools to move fast, it's better to play it safe and wait an extra turn or two to scope out the patrols then it is to run in and hope you can find a hiding spot.  You won't be able to beat missions quickly early on, you need to learn how to get past threats unnoticed, or take them down safely.

 

Walk softly  Ideally, you want to gain as much information about the level as you can before taking any risks or taking anyone out.  As soon as you KO a guard, you are going to have to paralyze and/or pin that guard with an agent or they are going to wake up soon and come looking for you.  Even killing a drone leaves a mark, as if a patrolling guard sees it he will go into alert mode.  Hack the cameras, peek through doors, get the facility layout via the database, anything you can do to find out the objective and exit location with minimal risk.  When you have the rundown of the place, plan your strike and make it quick and clean.  Move your people in to the right spots, take down the guards, grab the objective, head for the exit.  If you barge into unknown rooms with 1 or 2 AP left, hoping for the best, you are going to get people killed.

 

Prioritize  It's going to be a long time before you can get everything you want on everyone.  What do you need most, right now?  Upgrading Stealth on your scouts is crucial, as is Anarchy 2 and inventory slots. Hacking can usually be upgraded last, except for a dedicated hacking agent who pops consoles. Your scouts need cloaks, stims, and should carry the best weapons you find.  Your supports need Paralyzers, Med-Gel or De-Fib, and backup plans.  Shock Traps, EMPs, Guns, Grenades, things you might not need every mission but you will be glad to have when you do need them.    You need different Incognita programs to deal with different situations.  Picking up Lockpick, Parasite, and some way to handle Daemons should be done as soon as possible.  Try never to spend all your cash in the upgrade menu, in case you see a really good item come up at the nanofab.

 

Learn the mechanics.  Learn how the vision cones work, where you can hide and where you will be seen.  What's the difference between gaurds in "investigate" mode and "hunt" mode? What does each alarm level do?  How does overwatch work?  Can you move other agents if only one is being overwatched?  Learn how items and enemies interact.  What happens when you Buster Chip a Null Drone?  What happens when you EMP an Akuma?  Do these things set off sound bugs?  Does a Shock Trap?  Does a gun?  What actually happens when you set off a sound bug, or get seen by a camera?  How many squares does the running sound travel? How many turns before the elevator comes back?  Can gaurds patrol into the starting room?  What happens if a guard sees your Personal Server?  I'll let you figure it out.

 

Choose your missions carefully.  Early on, you should be targeting Security Dispatch for free high-quality items.  Then get Vault Keys from Financial missions, and hit Cybernetics and Vaults.  Once you have some money saved up, hit Server Farms and Nanofabs.  Don't neglect Executive, sometimes the best missions are unlocked via these.  Once you have your original two agents well geared out, hit Detention Centers and look for your other agents (it's usually not worth having an agent that will be a liability with no items or skills, although the extra inventory space is nice).  Detention Center is more of a challenge, as the cell door is always watched, and you have to get your slow moving rescue out alive.  Be very careful with the "special" missions (courier, mole).  In all the other missions, you can always bail if things go bad.  You find the elevator, you get the hell out.  With the special missions, the elevator doesn't unlock until you find the target, so you better be ready to make that happen.

 

There is no one right answer.  Every mission layout is different, and every person has their own style and preference.  What worked for me might not work for you.  Every run is going to be different, so think about how you want to play and do that.  Do you want to challenge yourself to never be seen?  Do you want to go in guns blazing and take down every mother****er that comes through the door?  Do you want to run with a lone wolf or a team?  Maybe you love controlling drones and just beating the level via hacking.  Play to your strengths and have fun, don't take what anyone says on the forums as the best answer if it doesn't work for you. 

 

There's (almost) always a solution.  One of my best memories was from a failed courier run, where Banks was trapped in a room with 2 Elite Enforcers and a Heavy Armor guard.  I had used my only Med-Gel on trying to revive the courier.  Banks's cloak was on cooldown.  Nobody else had a cloak.  Banks was trapped behind a console with no way to the door, and all the guards were in the room hunting.  Alarm was at 6.  I sat and looked at that for about 15 minutes.  I eventually realized I could get another agent to Stim, pick up a concussion grenade from a paralyzed support gaurd, get to the room Banks was in, and use the grenade to KO all 3 guards, then get Banks out.  Courier didn't make it, but I still felt like a magician after that one.

 

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Here's a screenshot of Turn 0 solve on a Cybernetics Facilty.  All objectives completed, every safe cracked and opened, all threats neutralized (except for those daemonized sound bugs), 100% explored.  I actually don't use/abuse the infinite stims or infinite busters.  There were 2 akuma drones, 2 dogs, 1 null drone, and it was a "4 shields" non-trivial layout.

 

[RizzleQ]

I agree with everything mentioned here. Net Downlink stacked a few times combined with a wireless scanner to see all kinds of mainframe devices to hack by moving a little bit allows me to explore the entire map in just one turn. Torque Injectors are so hard to come by for me, but when I do get a few one one operative it's awesome to be able to use things over and over.

 

My opinion is that Net Downlink should be restricted to be only stacked twice and Torque Injectors are allowed to be stacked as many times as possible if they are made rare to find.

[keypusher]

4 torque injectors on a single agent means infinite stims, which means unlimited movement and attacks.

[Sphingx]

For me the main problem with Endless mode is that after a certain point, I'm not sure what to spend my money on anymore. Made ridiculous with Archive Banks, the econ chip and Torque injectors... well I guess Central is pretty happy with my bank balance!

[Anelyn]

They need to limit mod stacking to 2. Also make Net Downlink only restore AP up to agent max (so it's still great, but not broken, ie: you move to check out behind a door and notice a guard that is patrolling through the door, but you're out of AP and can't take him out or already used your attack, so you hack something and move out of way).

 

Also there needs to be something more for endless mode to justify the cash earns, something you can invest into on long term (like transportation vehicle upgrades so you travel faster to mission locations, extended central quarters vault, research new designs / implants etc).

 

Comparing this to Don't Starve as far as endless / sandbox mode go, DS still has great value and is fun to play even if you can already move to another world and fully explored yours, there are still challenges, you always need to resupply / gather stuff, take care of your base / food etc. But in Invisible there are no worries once you're past the starting days, you get to a point where you don't need anything else than recharge packs for your guns, cash has no value anymore, you are loaded on mods / mod slots, you have max agents and will never get a new one (which would been fun and give some incentive to continue in doing Detention missions if you could get all agents with the archive versions and choose who will go on next mission etc), you have all the top tech gear on every agent etc.

 

There are tons of things that make it fun still (like trying different combos) but am sure the devs will give it more in-depth for endless mode (which sole purpose is to keep you entertained and inside the atmosphere of the game ad infinitum)

[WilliamGreywind]

I really wish I think that eventually, once Klei manages to get the story completed and what not, they could work on giving Endless Mode some sort of interesting thing. Imagine Endless Mode being that re-building of the firm. RE-BUILD THAT FIRM! MAKE YOUR AGENCY POWERFUL AGAIN.

 

But then again, Endless Mode is beyond broken when it comes to balance. Who knows what becomes of Endless Mode once we hit the proper release.

[Lioe]

I'm also playing in endless mode at the moment. Nowhere near day 30 yet, but I'm already noticing the drop in difficulty.

 

 

if mission levels gained even 1 extra room per day, you would find that by day 20 or 30, those 30 extra rooms and significantly larger map size would have a significantly more challenging effect on gameplay.

 

What if one isn't using net downlink or torque injector augments? Then simply running for the exit in a 30 extra room map could take one to a high alarm level. Maybe additional floors instead? Each floor with its own alarm tracker?

 

What I'm finding is that the alarm level becomes a little meaningless as the agents get more powerful. During the early game it's exciting to decide between risking to stay or leaving quickly. But later on I've not had much difficulty staying, especially if a map has turrets or drones. 

 

Perhaps if a high alarm level had more negative consequences, maybe losing reputation or funds or access to upgrades for agents/Incognita? Maybe combined with the ability to reset/hack with the alarm level at some sort of cost?

 

I've not tried stacking the same augments, but even using just one net downlink is incredibly powerful (and fun!). How many augments can a single agent have? I've only just installed a forth slot on one and was surprised I was able to.

[keypusher]

Agents can have up to 8 augment slots.  The most overpowered build I can imagine is mass Torque Injectors (4x) and then 2 or 3 Net Downlink, with the last slot for Carbon Myomer (extra inventory slot).  Remember that on-file agents have one slot is taken up by their unique augment.

 

edit: I guess you could also do 8 Torque Injectors for infinite cloak.  Either way, it seems pointless to even continue playing at that point, as all challenge has been removed from the game.

[chieftainjoe]

Agents can have up to 8 augment slots.  The most overpowered build I have tried is mass Torque Injectors (4x) and then 2 or 3 Net Downlink, with the last slot for Carbon Myomer (extra inventory slot).  Remember that on-file agents have one slot is taken up by their unique augment.

 

First of all, thanks for this very interesting topic. While I fully understand all concerns about end-endgame balancing, and finding a meaning of playing for so long, i'd ask for something different on the same topic, if you don't mind:

What were your starting agents, and what would you recommend for such a run? Did you try to score for such a run from day 1, or did it more like develop just like that? Do you try to get the described setup for every agent, or is one agent enough for it?

I guess for inventory you would need something like:

Neural Disruptor 3, Cloaking Rig 3, Stim 3, Accelerator 3, Buster 3? Anthing else?

 

I'd like to make such a run as well, although I think, they will fix/nerf the torque-injector stacking soon.

And while i think the game should be centered around story mode, i'd like to see the endless mode receiving some love from the devs.

[keypusher]

What were your starting agents, and what would you recommend for such a run?

 

 

I added a lengthy response to this and put it in a previous reply on this topic, so more people could easily see it.  Thanks for the question.

 

 

 

[chieftainjoe]

I added a lengthy response to this and put it in a previous reply on this topic, so more people could easily see it.  Thanks for the question.

 

Wow, thank you, this is far more, than I could ever have asked! The only thing i'm wondering is, that you just said, your "most op agent ever" used 8 augments, while all on file agents already have a slot reserved...wouldn't it be wonderful to start with archive internationale and archive banks? They work awesomely well together! (Banks can make TONS of money with the custom eco chip, while internationales server more than compensates for the lost power) And they both could have 8 augments in theory. Well, i guess there are many viable ways, i just wanted to make a suggestion which you might like

 

I'm pretty sure Klei is going to nerf this kind of style, and i somewhat can understand it. It's still a pitty, though, and i will try to make such a run as long as it's still possible. But while i really like Internationale (she's my favorite agent tbh), it's a pitty that you can't use remote-accelerator chips. If you really sell your power generation lategame, i guess you are dependend on the accelerator chips? While distributed processing is certainly nice, it doesn't really synergize with finishing the level as fast as humanly possible, does it? And having one single DP (like you suggested)...does it really make a difference? I might rather have one on every agent, especially as you left augments open for xu and nika. If you would make the item/augment list a little more detailed, i would be so happy

 

Anyway, i'm going to make a new run with Banks and Internationale tonight and will try to get past day 10 with your hints

 

Edit: And you still go for Anatomy analysis, even though it only reduces the tracker by one? I thought it was kind of useless after this change. By any chance, have you tried to get two AA to get the old effect?

 

Edit2: And i don't fully understand, why your "most OP" Agent had 4 Torque Injectors AND 3 net downlinks? I mean "most op ever" and 4 torque injectors sound very much like you perma use stim3 to keep running forever. But doesn't this make the net downlinks fully obsolete? But on the other hand, i kinda like how your suggested team doesn't exploit this

[keypusher]

Edit2: And i don't fully understand, why your "most OP" Agent had 4 Torque Injectors AND 3 net downlinks? I mean "most op ever" and 4 torque injectors sound very much like you perma use stim3 to keep running forever. But doesn't this make the net downlinks fully obsolete? But on the other hand, i kinda like how your suggested team doesn't exploit this

 

It's because I don't actually abuse the Torque Injectors.  I have 2 Torque Injectors on Banks and Nika, and that's it.  Infinite Stims is just broken, and removes any challenge from the game.  Basically I use them so that I have Neural Distruptor ever turn, and infinite access to Accellerator Chips.  As you say, after selling power generation, my primary power comes only from hacking consoles.  Distributed Processing I picked up earlier in the game, it helps some when I was trying to replace Power Drip and when I was still carrying Personal Servers around.  I didn't go into all my augment slots, as some of it is just personal preference and what you happen to pick up in your run.  All of my agents do have the full 8 augment slots filled out.

 

Anatomy Analysis I carry on Nika because she is the only one who carries a lethal gun.  I never tried having 2, I assume it doesn't work to reduce alarm to 0 based on the wording, but it could be worth a shot.

[chieftainjoe]

It's because I don't actually abuse the Torque Injectors.  I have 2 Torque Injectors on Banks and Nika, and that's it.  Infinite Stims is just broken, and removes any challenge from the game.  Basically I use them so that I have Neural Distruptor ever turn, and infinite access to Accellerator Chips.  As you say, after selling power generation, my primary power comes only from hacking consoles.  Distributed Processing I picked up earlier in the game, it helps some when I was trying to replace Power Drip and when I was still carrying Personal Servers around.  I didn't go into all my augment slots, as some of it is just personal preference and what you happen to pick up in your run.

 

Anatomy Analysis I carry on Nika because she is the only one who carries a lethal gun.  I never tried having 2, I assume it doesn't work to reduce alarm to 0 based on the wording, but it could be worth a shot.

 

I see. This seems quite reasonable, as 4 torque injectors AND Stim III abuse appears to be more or less godmode, unless you misclick yourself into a turret or guard So making a lategame-layout which still makes the game remotely playworthy and at least somewhat limits your insane op-ness seems better to me as well.

 

I understand that you don't feel like posting every single augment slot you used - i just wonder what you gave nika and tony as fillers? Did you just let them run with only 3 additional augments in total? I guess one might fill it with distributed processing (two or more on one character work, right?) or net downlinks - i mean that's still better than to leave it empty.

 

And Carbon myomer sounds like a must have for such builds on every character to me. But it's exactly as you said, of course, it all comes down to personal preference! Still, i'm really happy there is such a thread now!

[keypusher]

Yup, I gave everyone Carbon Myomer, and filled empty slots with Net Downlink, maybe one Chameon, Skeletal Suspension, MicroSLAM apparatus (this gives money for exploring the level btw, description is very unclear),  Keep in mind that not every level can be solved in Turn 0, especially for the Courier, Detention, Mole, and Executive Missions they require multiple turns they are impossible to complete that way.  Also, you have to actually SURVIVE until you get all this crazy gear, so you need to balance the "best" setup with what you can actually find sometimes.  By the way, I added some more general discussion strategy tips to my earlier post just now, check it out if you are thinking of doing a similar run.  I look forward to hearing other people's experience with the late-game, if they nerf the stupid infinite Stims thing, there could be a real community around speedruns in this game. 

 

I think what they need to do is make it so that Toque Injectors only reduce the cooldown on items to 1, and never below.  I don't really think they need to change Net Downlink or stacking augs, it's what makes the game fun at high level.  If you are willing to sink this much time into the game, you should be able to build up some badass agents.

[chieftainjoe]

Yup, I gave everyone Carbon Myomer, and stacked empty slots with Net Downlink, Chameon, MicroSLAM apparatus (this gives money for exploring the level btw, description is very unclear), Skeletal Suspension.  Keep in mind that not every level can be solved in Turn 0, especially for the Courier, Detention, Mole, and Executive Missions they require multiple turns they are impossible to complete that way.  Also, you have to actually SURVIVE until you get all this crazy gear, so you need to balance the "best" setup with what you can actually find sometimes.  By the way, I added some more general discussion strategy tips to my earlier post just now, check it out if you are thinking of doing a similar run.  I look forward to hearing other people's experience with the late-game, if they nerf the stupid infinite Stims thing, there could be a real community around speedruns in this game.  I think what they need to do is make it so that Toque Injectors only reduce the cooldown on items to 1, and never below.

 

Either that, or make torque injectors not stack at all (although this would be a very harsh method and i hope it will still be possible. Maybe only allow 2 on a character at maximum or something like that? Well, i think the devs will find a good solution for that)

Thanks for the Update, it will surely make things easier! Of course you're right, the real challenge (and probably the most fun) is to GET there! Especially finding exactly the 4 agents you wanted could turn out to be a real challenge.

Final note for today: I don't really consider MicroSLAM to be that good for such a run. After day 5 or so, you will have more money than you could ever spend and MicroSLAM effectively does nothing but permanently blocking an augment slot. Of course, UNTIL you get there, it's a nice bonus income i guess. Still, when going for such an endless mode run, i wouldn't really use it, or am i missing something?

[keypusher]

I think you will still need money after Day 5, probably up until day 15 or so if I remember correctly.  Keep in mind you have to upgrade all 4 agents abilities (~$10,000 each), buy weapons, buy items, buy augs, and Incognita programs.  Probably costs at least $25,000 to fully kit out a single agent.  Most of your Cybernetics runs will be used for Augment Slots, which means you need to buy most of your augs from the Nanofab.  Early missions (1 or 2 shields) give less money, but best case from 4 shield mission you can probably net ~$2,500 or so with completing the objective, opening all safes, stealing from all the guards?  Not every mission if 4 shields though, and you probably can't clear every level 100%.  If you need $100,000+ to max everything out, that's more than 5 days worth, especially considering that early missions don't give as much money.  Econ Chip would certainly help, but an extra ~$350 from every level via MicroSLAM doesn't hurt.  I'm not sure if stacking MicroSLAM works to increase the bonus, perhaps someone can look into that.

 

I think they probably need to make Incognita programs and Tier 3 gear more expensive.  For how much better a Tier 3 cloak is than a Tier 1, or how much better a De-Fib is than a Med-Gel, or the amount of use you get out of certain Incognita programs, everything basically costs between $500-$1250.  Why spend almost as much on mediocre weapon or item and not just save up for the best one?  I assume they are balancing for Story Mode, where you will never see the kind of money you do on Endless and might never come across the item you are looking for, but at these prices some of the top tier weapons and items are an absolute bargain.

[Wizard1200]

I think they probably need to make Incognita programs and Tier 3 gear more expensive.  For how much better a Tier 3 cloak is than a Tier 1, or how much better a De-Fib is than a Med-Gel, or the amount of use you get out of certain Incognita programs, everything basically costs between $500-$1250.  Why spend almost as much on mediocre weapon or item and not just save up for the best one?

 

Yeah, the cost of tier 3 gear should be increased by about 25 %.

[Caischcer]

Agent Notes:

If you don't get the agent you are looking for at the Detention Center, just let them rot and try again a different time.  I left poor Deckard in that Detention Center 4 times before I got the team I was looking for.  Do I feel bad?  Kind of, but he backstabbed me that time in Monaco so he had it coming.

 

LOL,(may I ask what Monaco character was that?) well I guess you are right I do agree Deckard is the worst agent in the long run but I always choose him anyway, why? well pretty much nostalgia (I have a whole post about that called "Deckard") I usually don't really stop to think if I should choose him, in fact I even feel bad if I don't! like if I lacked something. But it's something I like to talk about for hours and I don't want to spam your topic talking about something that has already been talked about. If you have curiosity and you feel like reading, you may want to check my post called "Deckard".

[chieftainjoe]

Wow, this is insane. I was just starting my playthrough aiming for an endgame team like keypusher described it. Everywith was going pretty poor so far, had to leave one mission without getting the objective and already used up a medgel. And had to leave a couple of saves behind. So I was going for a serverfarm hoping to get a parasite 2.0 (it's not ideal for the end-end-endgame, but it's oh so sweet before! One of my favorite programs!) and what the hell does shopcat offer me? I'm not lying to you, there for a mere 1000 credits he was willing to sell me Abacus 2.0! I couldn't believe my luck. This cat deserves to be petted for the rest of his life!

 

The bad part is, i was playing this level really poorly as well, and ended up selling most of my stuff just to be able to buy abacus. (Made some poor decisions before, not gonna lie about that. My start has been going so poorly, that I almost gave up on this run and didn't pay all too much attention anymore). Now i'm left at the beginning of day two with Internationale and Banks, no credits, and almost no equipment and character upgrades. But i got fusion, lockpick and abacus 2.0!

 

Let's see if I can turn this run around. Recovering from my poor start and taking Abacus 2.0 to the endgame would be so awesome! Wish me luck

 

Sorry for this slightly OT story, but once again: Great thread and thanks for all the input, keypusher!

[keypusher]

I'm not lying to you, there for a mere 1000 credits he was willing to sell me Abacus 2.0! I couldn't believe my luck. This cat deserves to be petted for the rest of his life!

 

Haha, nice!  I think you totally made the right call, it's going to be a challenge to work your way out of this one but hopefully it pays off for you in the long run.  Looking forward to hearing more about it.

 

Good Luck, and don't forget to close those doors behind you!

[TheCalcutec]

Been mostly lurking on these forums for the last few months now, but just wanted to say thanks to Keypusher for a fantastic strategy write up in this thread. Well done.

[chieftainjoe]

Haha, nice!  I think you totally made the right call, it's going to be a challenge to work your way out of this one but hopefully it pays off for you in the long run.  Looking forward to hearing more about it.

 

Good Luck, and don't forget to close those doors behind you!

 

Yeah, well, what can I say, i'm still living. Abacus 2.0 suddenly made me give 110% concentration and then a few missions later i was able to pick up tony. Like it was meant to happen. Now on day 5, and you were right, i have still enough options to empty my bank account.

 

My biggest concern now is power generation and daemon handling. While rapier is already incredibly strong now, i don't feel very comfortable selling fusion (as the game is for now, you can never get it back). And i'm still not sure, whether to install distrubuted processing or not. While one will hardly make a difference, one on every agent would be 2 power per turn on average, but also cost 4 slots. Servers are strong, but a bit annoying to handle.

 

Funny enough, one of my motivations to play endless mode for a longer time was to go Abacus hunting myself. Well, so much for that, but i will still try to push much further and maybe write down some experiences/strategies i found out myself.

[chieftainjoe]

Sorry for the doublepost, wanted to share my experiences:

Currently on day 13. Money has kinda become a non-depleting ressource. Also with max hacking on all agents, and an Accelerator chip 3 (and abacus 2.0 due to my seemingly extremly high luck) Fusion has become totally obsolte. Sold it, and still i hit the 30 power cap regulary.

 

My problem is firstly, that i still haven't found Nika, and Detention centers are very rare. But even more important, i haven't found any cybernetics lab for 5 days or so now. THE "CODENAME:" missions are incredibly common, so are security dispatches and vaults. But it just appears like the cybernetic fabs don't appear anymore. Anyone got an idea why that may be so? Or have i just been really unlucky recently? (To compensate for my abacus find maybe? )

Also i don't finish most missions to 100% anymore, as i'm just hunting for Nika and Cybernetic fabs right now. Money and tier 1/2 items don't really get my attention anymore Also i try to fly long distances in the mission selection, to get to a new day sooner and hopefully new detention centers and maybe finally a cybernetic fab again....

 

Apart from that, the game is pretty easy by now Agents with endequip and good augments just sweep the floor. I think since day 5 or so i never had a mission again where i was really in danger. Banks got shot once, but it was mostly due to me playing carelessly and knowing, i have Internationale with everything and a medgel close by.

[keypusher]

Hey man, good to hear that your run is still going well.

 

i try to fly long distances in the mission selection, to get to a new day sooner and hopefully new detention centers and maybe finally a cybernetic fab again....

 

I think this is the problem, and I ran into the same thing.  In the beginning, it's best to avoid those "CODENAME" missions, but that means they pile up and become the majority of the missions you have left.  If you fly long distances every day and only pop 1 or 2 missions a day, you will only see 1 or 2 new missions the next day.  What I had to do was to suck it up and crank through as many of those unecessary missions as possible each day, in order to clear them out and get as many new missions as possible the next day ( I was looking for server farms, but same idea).  The other thing you can do is hit the executive missions when they come up, in order to trigger new mission spots.  This is probably the worst phase of the game, as grinding out unecessary missions is extremely tedious and not very fun, even if you are blasting through them just to find the elevator.  This is the part of the game I first started trying to do "Turn 0" clears, just to keep things interesting.

 

It seems like your experiences so far are pretty similar to my own.  You think you can get enough cash to max out all 4 agents in about 10 days then?  I didn't keep track but my math suggested sometime between day 10 and day 15.  I've got to wonder what else the devs can do to keep the game interesting past that point.