WX Skill Tree Thoughts Again

[viblym]

Writing yet another post. Hello.

Use They/Them for WX in my thread if you don't I'm not going to take you seriously.

There is something to be said about how in a server with my friends several of them chose shadow affinity, only one of my friends chose lunar affinity (He has a Backup he calls "Gerald", Gerald has been dead in world for like an in game Year), and myself. We were actually playing on the server last night together having fun as friends, the beta patch dropped and we all left and restarted the server to update our game, and after experiencing all the changes they made to shadow affinity the general consensus is that a couple of them would just rather not pick an affinity at all. Shadow affinity was the one thing WX had going for one of my friends, who swapped to Wendy just to get a taste of a fun character, and one of them stuck with shadow affinity all the while getting more and more frustrated by it. I haven't even gotten to make a possessed chassis in this world because they're so inconvenient to upkeep, I essentially do not have an affinity beyond the damage modifier at the moment. 

Specific reasons? Well shadow affinity got gutted. The two things that remain unchanged was the boulderbough veins, and mimics (beyond removing mimic decon staves and amulets. That one is just sad). The damage debuff WX applied automatically that debuffed mobs as a whole in an aoe, and the backup chassis performing automatic harvesting and collection of materials got turned into two drones respectively, that you can only have ONE of at a time, they are mutually exclusive, if you have a backup that has a different shadow item inserted, you can give that one a different drone, but you cannot have both anymore.

Another special thing about these drones that replaced WX's passive shadow abilities? They break. They break when you use them. They actually break very FAST when you use them, they just pop like a balloon. 

In addition to that, they also take up a lot of screenspace around you, they also move obnoxiously slow. Want to use the exploiterator drone to buff your damage in combat? Half of the time they are going to be dragging far behind you, not buffing you in combat. The other half of the time you're probably fighting a very slow or unmoving target. Four is the cap, and they provide a 5% damage modifier each, to a max of 20% (this is less than the debuff before), it also only applies to ONE entity at a time, and only buffs the WX who has the drones. The maximum damage modifier isn't even as appealing as the damage buff doesn't even apply to planar damage, but plain damage. This Hurts.

The collection drones do not function off screen as the backup chassis collection did, in addition to that they are significantly slower, with all four of them at once their collection is meager. Any farming potential WX had has been cut back so hard. And don't forget these drones also break with use. 

You have little to no control over these drones at all, you either have them and they are always in your way for whatever convenience they provide, or they just aren't there at all. You have to put up with them, their hitboxes are also inconveniently large. The presence of their shadow affinity is felt significantly more now, to significantly worse effect. 

We were having a discussion prior to the patch where we were expressing joy that the implementation of the spin cycle circuit with shadow affinity made the pick/axe a viable weapon in gameplay (viable as in something you can and actually will use, and not just something that you could use.) The synergy that the spin cycle had with shadow affinity is just not there anymore, the appeal being the aoe damage that you can get with debuffed enemies using a lower damage output weapon. Now the damage buffing is single target, maximized post rift, and by that point if you were really into using axes as weapons, you'd just get the maul. It moved pick/axe down a tier, which is very sad from the perspective of actually really liking that more niche weapons were being given use. 

I will give it to klei that WX's shadow affinity felt (not anymore.) like an influential affinity, for most characters their affinities either only affect one aspect of their character, or the design of it just does not lend to giving themself over to a higher power in exchange for something. With WX it really felt like you were harnessing the shadows for your own benefit, when you had shadow affinity it was something people would be constantly aware of just for how many things it did for you, how much it changed your approach to various things you can do in game. I liked that a lot. The drones are there visually yes, to their own detriment. WX can already make drones, inexplicably getting another drone that you get with shadow affinity that is just a drone with shadow FX does not feel the same at all. What is stopping WX from just making those drones in the first place, why do they even need shadows for this. 

Overall the entire skill tree has felt like a cautious step forward, followed up by several large backsteps. The entire skill tree once they revealed lunar affinity has felt like WX has been stifled as a character in anticipation of some super powerful potential follower that would break the game balance forever (because followers tend to do that). 

Lunar affinity... I hate it.... so much. I loathe followers in this game with a heated passion, when they are done right they are fantastic, like Abigail! Abigail is really well designed, she expresses fantastic quality, while most other cases of followers heavily favor quantity. DST overall just does not feel like the game for followers en mass. With the remover of the follower cap with Webber's refresh, the implementation of Wurt, and other changes to followers that have been made, the "power limit" on followers has essentially become infinite. Whatever you need to do you just employ more and more followers until they get it done, and it isn't even like getting a bunch of followers is a difficult thing to achieve. 

In comparison WX's possessed chassis followers are meant to be a quality follower, both in the sense that you are hardcapped to three, but also because they are infants you need to coddle three stats of. It doesn't matter how many glossy videos of random youtubers console spawning in Jeweled Enlightened Crowns and Brightshade Staves and Gears and Armor eviscerating enemies you show me, they do NOT feel like this in gameplay. Spawning things in with commands to "test" betas is like a plague on every beta, much like how opening the files to dig numbers up is a plague on  betas, it is such an impersonal action, you cannot gauge how something feels based on that, sure you can look at something and think "that's too high" or "that's too low", but I can never take the claims of something being weak or op based off of an opinion formed isolated from gameplay. The gameplay is the important part, you get to feel how things actually are and how they actually influence your approach to the game, seeing 3 possessed chassis kitted out with equipment fighting bosses does nothing for me when you consider what you have to do to get to that point, and what happens when the fight ends. 

I have NOT gotten to enjoy my lunar affinity in gameplay, like I said with Shadow Affinity pre-patch, it did so much it never felt like you were just playing "regular" WX, you were a Shadow Servitor and you felt it! I haven't felt like my lunar affinity at all! I delegate my affinity to a follower that is just another player! I don't get to "have" my own affinity! It's nothing but a damage modifier at that point. 

Consider Maxwell's shadows for a minute, prior to his rework, his minions were niche at best? I don't really know the word to describe it, they weren't good. Post rework, his minions were given a variety of things that helped them function better. The cost of summoning them was changed, you do not have to clutter your inventory with equipment to summon them, now they only take a fraction of a nightmare fuel to access. You can summon and de-summon them at will with minimal effort, you decide when you want your summons to be present, and it is inexpensive to decide you do not want to be bothered by them. Maxwell's followers have a dodge and damage cap to prevent them from instantly getting wiped off the face of the Earth when in combat, they don't exactly have the refinement of kiting technology, but it works. 

In comparison, the possessed chassis have some major glaring issues. A big one is that you need to be in a lunacy area to summon them in the first place, meaning you have to make a trip to Lunar Island OR the Grotto (they are exclusive to the shard they were made in) and get the chassis possessed, then you have to extract that follower from that location and then they are just With you. They do teleport, that is nice. At that point if they die for any reason (health, starving, insanity) you have to go all the way back to get them back. So I guess in the ideal scenario you kit them out with a stack of gears so they don't just crumple before your very eyes. It's your choice to give them circuits, but you ideally do since they have WX's stats of 100/100/100. The only functionality that having a sanity stat does for them is make it so they can use the enlightened crown, that is it. That is the unique functionality that is exclusive to the possessed chassis, is that if you have killed CC more than once or just give your crown to them, they can use it. Then again once they hit 0 sanity they instantly deactivate. I watched 2 possessed chassis die mid Klaus fight from insanity, and their lifespan had just begun. Some bosses and a variety of mobs have large negative sanity auras, and powerful ones at that, Deerclops infamously has -400, so make sure to check your scrapbook and see what has the "VERY SCARY" tag to see how much sanity you're going to need to provide to your followers to stop them from kicking the metaphorical bucket. They have a halved sanity aura drain modifier at least, and a 25% negative sanity aura modifier with a powerful gestalt.

Once you get to Moonstorms, it can be argued that summoning them is easier with every night being a full moon, this is true. I think the actual point at which summoning a lunar chassis reaches its  maximum convenience potential, is post Mutant Bosses, when you get access to the phasmo encapsulator. You can pick and capture the most powerful gestalts as yes, the stats of the possessed chassis scale depending on what gestalt type is inserted into them. No matter what gestalt you insert, the possessed chassis will deal less damage. They have a halved regular damage multiplier and a halved planar damage multiplier, with a powerful gestalt you get a regular planar damage output. Anyways, the inconvenience of summoning a follower that you have to care for until their inevitable death hurts me. As much as their behaviors have been tweaked, they lack some major QoL, they still need heavy work for me to feel like utilizing them is justified over just picking the much better and more accessible shadow affinity (that they NERFED).



Wx's 4 circuit swapping perks got merged into two. That's much better, but to be honest I think they should be condensed even further down into one perk, and the ability to remove any circuit regardless of order should be base kit. I can understand how a few years of WX feedback just being "Circuit swapping is too punishing!" would make you think that these perks would be invaluable, but it has always felt like a very weak argument to me. Especially given that backup chassis just give you a unique alternative to circuit swapping, I don't see the point. Maybe they just aren't for me. 

Two perks to make extra backup chassis still feels like filler. Nevermind the fact that lunar affinity doesn't even let you utilize your backups as you please anymore. People wanted more backups so badly, it feels necessary. Sad to see that yet again it feels like WX is not getting something because it was balanced around the idea of lunar affinity, instead of just being decent in its own right. People should not feel this way, and the Skill Tree itself should not feel this way. Everything feels like it revolves around Lunar Affinity, even the beta itself. 

I still think the circuit tinkering perks should be condensed into one perk per circuit type, condensing them into 3 perks instead of 6. Off by one is my saving grace. Nightvision's awful filter being removed by tinkering is another case of something that should just be there for the sake of my real life sensitive eyeballs and doesn't make it a better circuit (Please god fix the Nightberry filter I'm BEGGING YOU. It hurts my friends with photosensitivity, and it hurts me WITHOUT photosensitivity). 

Transport 1 and Transport 2 still feel like an obnoxious double perk setup, given that you can just craft more of the level 1 transport drones to the same effectiveness. Just make it one perk.

Zaptrocuter day 1 of the beta felt like the thing I had the most gripes with, useless in solo play, and obnoxiously spammable in multiplayer. It has not been touched at all, and we get told right at the end that it's being made to work with Possessed Chassis, again another feature of WX's beta that felt like it was just glossed over in anticipation of that affinity. Stop doing this.

Roto-Mapper still suffers from having a use cap, the first I've ever seen in any character perk I think. Once you've mapped the world you just swap off of it, it's for some early game convenience and that's it. Goodbye Roto-Mapper. At least it got condensed. 

Signal Booster is ok, but it should've been built into the Rangebooster Circuit.

Inhabited Machine 2 and 3, I don't care to ask to change. I think the idea of a revival perk in a skill tree is a bit silly, insight and skill trees are supposed to be reward for becoming more experienced with a survivor. It was said during the Wendy Skill Tree that the postmortem ghost damage perk was supposed to be for new players, so I assume that this is their mentality for revival perks and such as a whole. 

Warm Standby is fine.

Remote Transfer... It felt inevitable that they'd get their own stats eventually, but they really need to preserve their sanity across backups, given that WX is transferring one mind, it's the one thing I'd expect to stay consistent. It also feels more like enforcing the synergy of Transport Drones and Long Transfer. The change hasn't influenced me too much as I have Transport Drones, but I imagine it would suck if you didn't.

Blocking Circuit in the paraphrased words of someone else: "If you use it correctly, you get to sit still and take 100 damage". Taunt is not saving it.

Screech... I don't like how it performs, it's Good though. Scaring indefinitely kind of puts you in the backseat of whatever scenario you're in, I don't like that aspect of it, but otherwise it's fine. 

Chessmaster is ok. I like the idea of neutral clockworks. I'm never going to use the follower component of this. It's fine.

Spin Cycle I love you.Spin Cycle I adore you. 500 more spin cycle.

Redigestion feels rather gimmicky, but it's fine. It's harsh to justify when compared to my goat spin cycle however. All gammas suffer this. They are just nothing in the face of my beautiful Spin Cycle Circuit. Just get a backup with Redigestion to have a rot to food processor.

Rangebooster is weird in that I think the Signalbooster perk should've been baked into the Rangebooster Circuit, again.

Expandinator is great! No thoughts here at all. I like it. It's good. I wish when you picked up items they'd automatically stack with an expandinated slot, and that you could have more than one expandinated slot open at once, but those aren't really issues with the circuit so much as they are things that just need to be tweaked to make it feel better to use in gameplay.

Illumination Circuit... I think it should've retained its original light radius. I think the balance of illumination circuit taking up more slots for a larger light radius when compared to Super Illumination taking up one slot but providing a livable light radius is good. I have an issue with the tinkering for both of these perks, and it's that it can also hurt people with photosensitivity if someone moves too much with it. I don't know how you could fix this without nerfing the circuit. I guess we just all have to cross our fingers and pray that people aren't jerks. 

The basekit circuit layout changes WX got were absolutely fantastic, I love how they have their own categories and such now. Mwa 

Anyways now that my more cohesive thoughts are written down in a rational and legible way here's my more emotionally charged tangent, under a spoiler because I don't think it's particularly necessary for anyone to read, but if you want to know how I really feel in a dramatic way, go ahead. 

Spoiler

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING??? WHAT ARE YOU DOING????? LUNAR AFFINITY INVALIDATES AN ENTIRE CHARACTER SKILL TREE BRANCH. THE ONLY THING I LIKE AT THIS POINT IS LONG TRANSFER AND I'M JUST WAITING FOR IT TO GET DIALED BACK EVEN MORE BECAUSE THE MOMENT I LOOK AT SOMETHING AND THINK "hey this is pretty nice actually." you go in and change it. This entire beta has not felt like a single character focused beta, the WX's skill tree has felt like a 2 character beta a la Wigfrid and Willow where Willow gets all the work but you combined Wigfrid and Willow's skill trees where they suffer the issues of both, they spend an eternity working on the affinities while letting the rest of the skill tree just rot with scarcely any revisions, but unlike Willow the affinities didn't even turn out good or like an equal balance between them. Mechanically the beta is impressive sure, but how much time went into developing the possessed chassis instead of addressing any of the issues the skill tree has! So many issues with the beta that are just completely overlooked because my worst fears for a character have been tapped into when they made a character into a follower character with their lunar affinity!!! how !!!!! WHY!!! WHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS!!! It didn't fix anything! WX's character just felt suppressed in anticipation of a major leg up that never came! There are so many good things but so many parts about this beta feels like something that would be issues early-on that would be ironed out.

Skill trees are way too polarizing and unbalanced, both in terms of the characters they apply to, and in comparison to each other. I don't think it should be this way. Looking back I'm starting to wonder if I even like skill trees as they are designed, I'd rather most of this stuff just be character reworks. It's too late Now but I think if skill trees were turned into character reworks, and the affinities were worked into "skill trees" as something that you get by progressing the lunar or shadow storyline in game, that are far more influential for the character you're playing, maybe that would be something. But I don't know I'm not a game developer and I'm not a Klei employee. I can't tell you how to design your game, nor would I probably be capable of designing a good game if I was put in charge, the best I can do is offer my opinion on things for consideration. Not everything is bad, there are some very nice and important changes in the tree and update as a whole, but overall the feeling is bad and I have not enjoyed it. 

Edited 13 hours ago by viblym

[Paxtonnnn]

13 minutes ago, viblym said:

We were having a discussion prior to the patch where we were expressing joy that the implementation of the spin cycle circuit with shadow affinity made the pick/axe a viable weapon in gameplay

I really enjoyed both that and WX’s progression, but with the shadow affinity being a choice between nightmare fuel/pure horror and the atrium, and the atrium feeling like a WORSE choice in some scenarios, it’s just confusing. Plugging a shadow heart into your body was a great thematic climax for the shadow affinity and now it’s something I don’t even want to use in favor of literal nightmare fuel

[YouKnowWho142]

look, as you said, characters play very different in practice than when you spawn everything in. After playing 2 runs with lunar affinity, I ended up liking it. I don't like using my backups to teleport since im already the fastest character in the game and using portable storage is a pain, so leaving all 3 backups on lunar island so that i can teleport to one of the chassis, possess the other 2, and teleport to my main body meant that i only ever had them when i wanted them and i can immediately send them back when i didn't want them. I didn't even have to feed them, and with a chorus box i didnt need to manage sanity either. They effectively removed this when they unexplainably added charges to the possessed chassis, so now I don't really see myself using the lunar affinity in its current state.

However, as you said, the biggest problem with it is that you are forced to play around it. That isn't a problem in itself since its an optional skill, it's okay to not like followers, the possessed chassis are absolutely not for everyone, so you are not forced to play that way if you are not interested in it. However, that's why it was so important for shadow to be simple and effective for the people who didn't want to use lunar. Now shadow doesn't even have that. All of my friends preferred shadow and are devastated by this update. I made plans to play with a friend to play today and now neither of us really even want to since we were running lunar and shadow affinity and both are in just dreadful spots. This second beta has been the biggest step backwards I've possibly ever seen Klei make, both in how they handled communication and balance.

My only super hard disagree is that if every skill you wanted compressed were to be compressed, there literally only would be 15 skills. That's not a skill tree and we know very well by this point they're not giving WX a whole new set of skills when it's literally already released. It isn't a bad thing to make you choose and WX doesn't need to sacrifice much in their skill tree to begin with.

Edited 15 hours ago by YouKnowWho142

[Reddddd]

I think it is important to separate the power level of WX-78 from the actual gameplay feel of this new Affinity system. I disagree that WX-78 needs a straight-up buff, but I absolutely agree with the complaints that the current Affinity implementation is a major step backward in terms of gameplay flow.

The critique of these Affinities as chores is spot on. My issue with WX-78 is not that he is weak, but that the current balancing approach feels like it is being done through busy-work rather than smart design. An Affinity should be a meaningful layer of Quality of Life or a thematic shift, not something that forces you to manage fragile, clunky drones or infants that break the second they hit combat. When the mechanics are so inconvenient that players would rather opt out of the Affinity entirely, that is a failure of the design, not a sign that the character needs more damage numbers.

I have seen people argue that these nerfs are unfair because they look at specific damage modifiers in isolation. However, we have to look at the whole picture: WX-78’s early, mid, and late-game progression is incredibly consistent. He is one of the safest bets in the game from day one. He makes the world his comfort zone while other characters are still struggling to survive the first winter or managing their specific niche requirements. He holds the crown of most consistent survivor far more easily than the rest of the cast.

I stand by my point that we should not be buffing him to match specialized characters like Wolfgang or Wendy. If WX-78 can do everything they do while maintaining his massive utility, he effectively makes them obsolete. I want a WX-78 that is a flexible, adaptable all-rounder, not one that replaces the need for team composition.

I am all for a rework of the Affinity systems, getting rid of the chores, the obnoxious hitboxes, and the fragile drone management. Let us make him fun and fluid to play. But let us not mistake fixing clunky mechanics for the idea that he needs a damage buff to keep up. We can have a character who is fluid and fun without turning him into a character who renders the rest of the roster’s niches irrelevant. If we keep pushing for WX-78 to be the best at tanking, damage, survival, and seafaring, we are moving toward a point where the roster stops being a group of specialists and starts being Don’t Starve: The WX-78 Edition. Let us focus on refining his gameplay rather than just giving him more power.

 

While yeah, some skill trees feel out of character, some feel like natural kit design (Wurt cough cough) we should fix the old skill trees and nerf to oblivion some of the skill trees, i dont want to be playing wilson and getting to a specific boss that was made with wx-78 with endgame tools or wurt army (or idk wolfgang dmg) in mind. If these characters keep being the power we all look upon to balance, the whole game will fall into a state of balancing and buffing eternally. We truly need reworks and embedded skill trees with automatic progression rather than choices (with some choices being ignoring most hazards)

[viblym]

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

They effectively removed this when they unexplainably added charges to the possessed chassis, so now I don't really see myself using the lunar affinity in its current state.

They're removing this thankfully, so you'll be able to use them again soon.

 

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

My only super hard disagree is that if every skill you wanted compressed were to be compressed, there literally only would be 15 skills. That's not a skill tree and we know very well by this point they're not giving WX a whole new set of skills when it's literally already released.

This is exactly the issue though, they should have more interesting perks, skill trees should have more variety and perks of significance instead of just the same thing increasing for several perks. Already being released doesn't mean much to me when most of the beta period was twiddling my thumbs waiting for Gammas and Affinities, the whole point of the single character spotlight was so they could get a developed tree and it does not show. I know they can come up with things to supplicate filler perks. 
 

1 hour ago, Reddddd said:

he

I forgot to superimpose bold text large font state that WX's pronouns are they/them on my post. Damn let me fix that.
 

1 hour ago, Reddddd said:

If WX-78 can do everything they do while maintaining their massive utility, they effectively make them (Wendy and Wolfgang) obsolete.

See this isn't true at all because those characters have a lot of these abilities innately or as a perk, WX has to specifically perk into things to "imitate" what other characters do, and they hardly do so to the same effectiveness. Other characters still have their appeal, and WX flops at being an all-around character because unless you focus every circuit slot to doing one thing, you're not going to do it very well. Either you can have a variety build and do many things, or you focus on one build to get a taste of some level of power. But then again I never really said in my post that WX needs to be outright buffed numbers wise, it's a more complicated issue than what number is bigger on which character with whatever perks, I value fun over everything else, there is some fun in having power, but what they changed wasn't fun, it doesn't enhance gameplay, it's just weaker. WX is not making any other characters irrelevant lol.

[Reddddd]

7 minutes ago, viblym said:

They're removing this thankfully, so you'll be able to use them again soon.

 

This is exactly the issue though, they should have more interesting perks, skill trees should have more variety and perks of significance instead of just the same thing increasing for several perks. Already being released doesn't mean much to me when most of the beta period was twiddling my thumbs waiting for Gammas and Affinities, the whole point of the single character spotlight was so they could get a developed tree and it does not show. I know they can come up with things to supplicate filler perks. 
 

I forgot to superimpose bold text large font state that WX's pronouns are they/them on my post. Damn let me fix that.
 

See this isn't true at all because those characters have a lot of these abilities innately or as a perk, WX has to specifically perk into things to "imitate" what other characters do, and they hardly do so to the same effectiveness. Other characters still have their appeal, and WX flops at being an all-around character because unless you focus every circuit slot to doing one thing, you're not going to do it very well. Either you can have a variety build and do many things, or you focus on one build to get a taste of some level of power. But then again I never really said in my post that WX needs to be outright buffed numbers wise, it's a more complicated issue than what number is bigger on which character with whatever perks, I value fun over everything else, there is some fun in having power, but what they changed wasn't fun, it doesn't enhance gameplay, it's just weaker. WX is not making any other characters irrelevant lol.

Im sorry i didnt know wx-78 said they go by they/them pronouns, or is that just your headcanon? I never saw anything related to this.

Oh yeah... affinities are an problem, but wx-78 INST weak in any way, thats all.

[flamboyant wolf]

1 minute ago, Reddddd said:

Im sorry i didnt know wx-78 said they go by they/them pronouns, or is that just your headcanon? I never saw anything related to this.

WX-78 is consistently referred to by they/them throughout the game, both by the game itself and other characters. Maxwell also refers to WX-78 with "Mx.", which is a gender-neutral honorific.( "%s" is where player's name goes ).

[Jussatoon]

9 minutes ago, flamboyant wolf said:

Mx.", which is a gender-neutral honorific.

I never heard of that before, that's quite interesting. I'm assuming it's an actual thing in real life and not just the game's instance?

[flamboyant wolf]

3 minutes ago, Jussatoon said:

I never heard of that before, that's quite interesting. I'm assuming it's an actual thing in real life and not just the game's instance?

yep.

[OrangeNibble]

The new shadow affinity feels worse in every way. Worse theme, worse mechanic, worse balance

[Reddddd]

1 hour ago, flamboyant wolf said:

WX-78 is consistently referred to by they/them throughout the game, both by the game itself and other characters. Maxwell also refers to WX-78 with "Mx.", which is a gender-neutral honorific.( "%s" is where player's name goes ).

The more you know